Drubin, I agree the Tap is neither solid state or tubes, that's why passives are alternatives to both types regardless if their transformer or resister based.
Did you ever come to any conculsions regarding the Tap in your system? It would be great if you would share what your impressions of it were in the context of your system. |
Tedmbrady, how's the experiementing with your different speakers/gear with the Tap been going? Are you missing in some way your Modwright tubed preamp?
It would be great to hear from you regarding what your recent impressions have been regarding the Tap, if it's a keeper for you or maybe not your sonic cup of tea. Let us know. |
Audphile1, I know the Tap is very forgiving of impedences in single ended mode, so I would expect it not to change drasticly when used balanced.
However, the best thing to do is to contact John Chapman, just talked to him day, who's a great gentleman and would answer your question with total expertise, that I lack in this matter. Give him a call. |
Gmood1, I could be wrong without a doubt, but I think John Chapmen has the S&B trannies customized to a certain extent compared to the stock transformers. Also, he uses Arlon Boards and ribbon wiring which could, in a very subtle way, influence the Taps voicing compared with the other units you mention. It would be fun to see/hear if there are any sonic differences at all and what they be if they exist. |
Gmood1, if you go to SIX MOONS website and look at what is called a "Pre-view" of the Bent Tap it will explain that Chapman's Bent Audio was never part of Music First, but they work together and yes both use the same transformers, but John does use either different wire or winds them a little bit differently then what's in the Music First passive.
Also, if you go into the archives regarding reviewer Les Turoczi experiences with at least two other transformer based passives, he found sonic differences that were slight but significant enough to make a difference in his system. I have a hunch that the type of boards and internal wiring that Chapman uses in the Tap could also make a small sonic change. |
Dbld, John Chapman, just like Guy Hammel of Placette, allows a 30 day home audition period to see if the Tap will work in your system and give the sonic signature your looking for. |
Gmood1, just wanted to share that the information regarding the type of wire that John Chapman uses in the Tap's transformers is not the stock wire of the standard Stevens&Billington transformers, is correct on my part.
John uses a special OCC copper wire(oxygen-free coninuous cast)that he believes offers more of a "natural/musical" sonic perspective then the standard/stock wire of the off the shelve S&B transformers.
So, does this different wire make a "real" sonic change, I don't know, however John Chapman had shared with me that he did experiement with silver wire, and different copper wires and found the OCC to sound the best to his ear's and taste. |
Just wanted to share as the Bent burns in the sonic virtues I mentioned in the review, such as microdynamics, tonal vividness/image density, and macrodynamics have just gotten better as the hours go by. I would also add to this list rhythmic drive, my whole system just seems more "alive", but without edge or glare of any kind.
I have also become aware of something unique regarding the noise floor or "blackness" that the Tap offers that my old reference linestage did not. Both have no noise floor as far as I can tell in my system. Each floats the music out of total and complete silence, yet something was different which made the overall sonic picture more "pure/real" to my ear's. Well, I came across an older review of another Stevens and Billington transformer based passive, the AVTAC Pasiphae which is no longer in production by Ross Mantle writing for Ultra Audio website. He beautifully describes what I'm hearing, so I quote:
"This transformer based preamp retains all low-level information down to the threshold of hearing, with no artificial blackness to the background. As the unit is passive, it generates no noise of its own. The result is that you can hear the atmosphere of the hall even when the music is not playing. The transients never pop out of nowhere. Rather, they develop and decay in a natural, believable way without being cut off abruptly when they reach the noise floor. At the same time, the superb low-level retrieval results in rich details at all levels.
In his Preamplifier Cookbook, Allan Wright of Vacuum State Electronics coined the term downward dynamic range. According to Wright, downward dynamic range is one of those qualities that separate the preamp men from the preamp boys. I believe it. Another term that nicely sums up these effects would be Harry Pearson's continuousness, which the Pasiphae has in spades. To resort to a tired but apt comparison, the organic effect of the Pasiphae gave CDs a sense of the pleasant continuousness and wholeness associated with vinyl records."
Mr. Mantle really "nails" what I have been experiencing with the Bent, but struggling to put into words. |
During the time I was going through the auditioning of the Bent Tap linestage in my system, I also had the pleasure of listening to two other very highly regarded preamps in my system. One was tubed and the other solid state.
I personally do not like the term "shoot out" because it implies an either/or orientation which disregards system synergy, personnal taste and how subtle the real sonic differences are between reference pieces of gear.
Now that I have had time to "digest" what each linestage had to offer I have come to the conclusion that the Tap would be a great linestage, and a great financial bargain at it's price of $3000.00, for those seeking what most audiophiles would refer to as the "magic of tubes" without some of the hassles that goes with tube gear. I understand if someone enjoys "tube-rolling" does not mind having to re-tube as time goes on that tube gear is not a hassle for them. If your the type that just wants to leave your system on and play music, without having to wait for things to have to warm up or concerns over the sound of your system as the tubes age, then the Tap could really be your sonic/pragmatic alternative.
Of all the linestages I have auditioned over the last three years, which now totals over nine preamps, the Tap really does offer a great synthesis of tube warmth/image density/decay trails with the speed/slam/details of solid state. When you also add to the mix that all the other linestages cost at least $2000.00 to $12000.00 more, the Tap is a great bargain.
A final note, I must be becoming a old lazy audiophile because I realized that I will not live with a linestage that does not offer a remote control. Some of the linestages I audtioned designer's believe that a remote would damage the sonics of their piece. I found it quite a hassle to have to get up, often times different cuts on the same CD have different "sweet spots" regarding volume levels, when I just wanted to relax and enjoy the music. |
Drubin, if somehow what I wrote implied that I liked one of the linestages more then the Tap, but just could not be without remote or that price factors ultimately lead to my decision to purchase it, then I did not communicate clearly my intent.
I do believe the Tap is a "killer" regarding price for performance compared to everything else I auditioned. I used to have the same viewpoint regarding my Placette Active, however the Placette now costs $2000,00 more then the Tap. Both offer unbelievable sonic performance for what they cost. The most expensive preamp I auditioned was $20 grand, I won't say either the Bent or the Placette were better, but I would take either of them over the much more expensive piece because the sonic performance was at least as good for ALOT less money.
If during my audition process a linestage, without remote, had offered me some kind of sonic virtue(s) that I would not want to be without in my system, I would put up with the pain in the ass hassle of manual volume control for the sonic pleasure. However, the Tap's sonics out performed greatly the linestages without remote so this had no bearing on my decision at all. |
Just got through with experimenting/auditioning with four different types of isolation devices to see if the Bent Tap's sonics could be improved on when compared to its stock feet.
The four types of isolation devices were:
1) Sorbothane 2) ceramic 3) Goldmund cones 4) carbon fiber
Well, I heard no difference or improvement at all. So either the stock feet are optimumized for the design or the Tap's case and acrylic base are immune to vibration to begin with, so after market cones or feet, regardless of the material, are pretty much irrelevant to improve its performance. I also wonder if transformer based passives by nature are more immune to vibrations then either resister based passives or active resister/tube preamps. |
Teacherman, my Tap's transformers are wound with copper wire, not silver. When I was discussing this topic with John Chapman, because I was curious regarding the copper vs. silver sonic differences regardless of the price difference, he had experimented with both and came to the conclusion, in a blindfold, that the sonic signatures were so close he could not distinguish one from the other. He decided that the extra cost of silver wire was not worth the cost sonicly to the average costumer. I believe he will wind silver transformers as a special order, if someone wants it that way.
As I stated in my review the Placette Active offered more razor sharp leading edges then the Bent Tap, however I have never listened to a Transformer based linestage with silver transformers, so you might know alot more regarding the sonic difference(s) between copper/silver based passives. Finally, I find it quite interesting you got different sonic effects with different isolation devices, when I found no difference at all in my system. |
Dbld, I use a off brand, don't remember the manufacturer's name, that cost around $500.00 per rack that have three shelves. The frame is composed of very thick steel posts filled with sand and the shelves are medium density particle broad. Each shelve sits on steel pinpoints at it's four corners. The Tap sits on the top shelve that rests on the longest spikes of all, a full inch. So, I think the Tap is well protected from acoustic vibration in my system. |
I found the following information, gained by further reading and discussions with DIYer's, very interesting regarding why the transformers in different transformer based passives offer different sonic signatures.
1) "To Pot or not to Pot" that is the question! In the Tap, John Chapman does not use potted transformers. Unlike the Music First passive that uses Mu-Metal canisters, the Tap's transformers are not encased or "potted" but are mounted by a pair of aluminum brackets that sandwich the core laminations and bolt to the bottom plate. Not only does this offer better vibration control, many believe that unpotted transformers have a overall sonic signature that is different then potted transformers.
2) That the type of expoxy used to seal the transformers, I guess different kinds can be used, also effects the sonics of the different transformers.
One of my discussions was with an electrical engineer who builds his own transformer based linestages and is always experiementing with different expoxies/resins and different types of metal/wood enclosures for his devices and swears that each factor can dramatically influence the overall sonic signature of the transformers. So, these among other factors might explain why you get subtle sonic differences between the passives that all use the S&B transformers. |
Thanks Gmoodl, I had already read Mr Ebran's review when I came to your post this morning. I had two responses to his opinion:
1) That I have tried on numerous occasions different and highly regarded tube preamps, and unlike Mr. Ebran, found them not to lend to the overall "musicality" of my system that he describes that he loses when going to a passive like the Tap. Notice, he did not discuss a lack of dynamics or bass, but what he subjectively refers as something not being as "real" in the music that his tube preamp offers to his ear's. Well, I think this really does revolve around personnal taste and system synergy, and to be fair Mr. Ebran does mention this as so.
2) I think you are quite right that transformer based passives sound more alike then different, but talking to other owners/designers there are slight differences sonicly regarding type of wires, enclosures, the type of expoxy used that do make a very slight change in the overall sonics of this linestages.
Well, Six Moons gave the Tap a "Blue Moon" award so that speaks for itself. |
Tedmbrady, I totally agree that I would rather have read a formal review by Les Turoczi then Ebran because I believe that Ebran is quite the type #2 flavor type and therefore is enamored towards tubes.
I would like to share what took place this last thursday at my house with another Audiogon member regarding the sonics of my system.
A fellow Gon member asked if he could come over to my house because he was very interested in the performance of the Accustic Arts Drive 1 MK2 and Dac1 MK4 that I use in my system. Of course he was welcomed, it was a real pleasure to meet Bob, and spend a couple hours listening to music and discussing all things audio.
His wife is a professional opera singer and he has a CD of her performing different pieces with piano recorded in a large natural acoustic environment. She really has a beautiful voice. He uses this CD to evaluate new pieces of gear or the overall sonics of a system, because he knows what the live reference really is.
I asked him to be totally honest and diplomatic regarding my rig's overall sonic performance, ruling out him just acting like a kind gentleman, he shared that this was the best his wife's voice had ever sounded on any system, including his own. What a great compliment!
Now, why am I sharing this in the context of Ebran's Six Moons review on the Tap? Because the preamp that he uses in his own home system is one of Mick's very good and highly regarded Supratek tube preamps. So, when Ebran talks about things like, "reduction of textures and image density" with the Tap compared to the active tube preamp in his system, Bob and I did not hear in my system. For a matter of fact, in my review of the Tap image density and textures were not only better then my reference Placette Active linestage, but significantly better then a highly regarded Shindo Labs tube preamp that I had on loan to do a home audition.
It just proves again how important personnal taste and system synergy are regarding everyone's experience of music and the gear that produces it in their own systems. |
First, I would like to wish a happy B-day to Ted and congratulate him on his new Bent Tap. Then on to the serious questions on hand.
1) Since you have the great luxury of having both the Tap and another excellent preamp which is a highly regarded tube piece to compare in your system, does the Tap lack any of what could be called the "body/texture" or "bloom" that many believe can only be attained by tube linestages?
2) Do you believe that the Tap offers more/better air around individuals in the sound stage compared to your tube reference?
3) Do you believe that the Tap throws a bigger, wider, or deeper sound stage with excellent layering in the soundstage then compared to your tube reference.
Ted, it would be great if you would share on this thread some of the information regarding the above stated areas, because I'm oftened asked by audiophiles who love what they call tube "bloom/richness/easyness" that to get the great microdynamics, lack of noise floor, extension, etc. of a passive, they would have to give up those other virtues that tubes offer. That has not been my experience but I have only auditioned tube linestages, I believe long enough to get a handle on their sonic signature, however your long term reference has been a tube linestage, so your impression of the Tap's warmth/timbres/liquidity compared to tubes will be quite interesting. |
I was just wondering if Tedbrady had come any closer to has final impressions of what the Tap has to offer in the context of his system?
I totally agree with Ted's last post when he stated that since the Tap was quite a change to what he's used to, he had not decided if liked it better then his old reference because it was new/different sounding or he likes it better because it offers more sonic virtues and leads to a qualitative improvement towards the reference of real music. It really does take some time to be able to distinguish between new/different vs. real improvements when the gear involved is all pretty damn good, like his Modwright preamp, to begin with.
So, Ted it will be fun to see what's happened in the last week with your on-going experiement with the Tap. Look forward to your response. |
I would like to address a couple of different items with this post.
1) In a past conversion with John Chapman, he shared that S&B was very annoyed that he would not jackup the price of the TAP for the North American market, so they could ask for a very high retail price in the European market for the Tap under their Music First banner. I have so much respect for John, both as a designer/manufacturer and a businessman who wants to make a fair profit, but not proposely inflate the price of his pieces for shear greed. My hunch is S&B thinks they screwed John by not supplying their transformers anymore, I just think they have put egg on their own greedy faces, and John is shown to be the first class gentleman that he is. I'm sure he'll just find another company to build his trannies or just build them himself.
2) Audioezra, congratulations on your new Cabernat preamp and your Kalista transport! I know your were very excited to get them and put them into your system, so I'm very glad they are giving you the pleasure of the music you were seeking. I'm still looking forward to coming over with Bob to your home and having a great time hearing your reference system.
3)Drubin, I have tried at least four very highly regarded tube linestages, the last audition was the Monbrisson Shinto Labs, and have found in my system and for my personnal taste that they offered no sonic virtues over either the Placette Active or my Bent Tap. I still think many, not all by any means, offer a somewhat euphonic coloration that some people love and find to be more "musical" to their ears or in the synergy of their systems. That's way it's so important to try any piece of gear in your system in your home environment. |
Denjo, in my system I only have a FM tuner and my digital front end as sources into the Tap. I would say that 99% of the time the volume setting on the Tap is between 25 to 29 to get my total system to "snap" into total focus and present the best sonic picture for that piece of music. So, I never have encountered any concerns with volume settings with the Tap in my system. |
Just wanted to share that on this last Sunday afternoon my girlfriend, she's a musician with great ears, and I did an audition comparing the Tap to a very highly regarded SS preamp that retails for $6000.00.
I have tried before on other occasions two tube preamps to see if they offered something the Tap did not in my system, and neither replaced the Tap.
Well, the SS preamp offered great details, dynamics, big soundstage, and offered a silky/smooth approach to timbres. Not bad, but the Tap still had all those sonic virtues and added a liquidity/easyness, lower noise floor, and more natural timbres in my system. I find it amazing that many audiophiles still believe that passives don't do dynamics like an active, well maybe the older designs, but the TVC's and buffered passives don't suffer in this area at all as far as I can tell!
I talked to John Chapman today and he hopes to be up and running building new Taps at the end of the summer. I hope so because it offers so much performance, build quality, and features at such a reasonable price. |
This weekend I tried another audition of a very highly regarded tube linestage, retails for $6500.00, to compare to the Bent Audio Tap. Everyone always talks about the "magic" of great tube linestages regarding harmonics, image density, and that " more natural midrange" were most of the music is contained in.
Well, after about six hours of listening, I wanted to put my Tap back in for the following reasons:
1) After over four years of using the Placette Active buffered stage and now the Tap, both are passives, I guess I'm addicted to pure and pristine transparency, total clarity, and just an "easyness" to the flow of the music that either SS or Tube linestages do not offer, at least in my system.
2) The tube linestage offered a very good large soundstage, but was far beyond the Tap regarding "air" between the Players and the individual players did not sound as real as they do on the Tap.
3) Yup, I heard that "magical midrange" on the tube linestage, but the addition of a slight warmth/lushness did not bring me closer to the emotion of the music, but kinda got in the way because it sounded to my ears as an additional coloration not part of the natural timbres of the music.
4) Who ever says that passives just can't do dynamics or give the body to the music that actives can, should just come over and listen to my system. The highly regarded SS linstage was better in this regard then this weekends Tube linestage but both were not as good in the lower end then the Tap and the Tube linestage's PRAT compared to the Tap was missing in action.
It always comes down to personnal taste and system synergy, my hunch is that with my Pass XA-100's adding warmth/musicality this tube linestage addition of a slight touch of "lushness/warmth/romance" took my system to far towards thick "velvet" and was not a good match in my system. If someone had SS amps or speakers that would lean towards bright or forward sonics, I understand way a tube linestage would be just the ticket to give some warmth to their overall system sonics. |
Audphile1, the tube linestage was the Joule Electra 150 MK11. So far I have done home auditions with Audio Research(not the Ref3, but the model before), Hovland, Shindo Labs, Wytech, and Lamm, and still like the Tap better in my system. |
Clio09, your quite right my description does not make sense, so here's the clarification.
The tap offered much more air around individual players and each player sounded more three dimensional then what the Joule 150MK11 offered in its soundstage.
Hope this helps, sorry for the confusion. |
