Requesting Advice on Speaker Upgrade
@rackon
Thanks for the Triton recs! . Happy with the 8005 so far. Been swapping out with the Rotel RA-12 depending on my mood. Both have very different sound from one another. I'm noticing that I prefer the Marantz with older recordings, especially jazz, and more laid back, mellower music. The Rotel shines with electronic and higher processed oriented production. For me, at the moment, I am mostly piecemealing because of budget constraints. I'll keep saving, and hopefully will be able to purchase a decent speaker pair and amp combo at the same time. |
Just a second for the GoldenEar Technology line. In addition to the Aons, check out the floor standers such as the Triton 7 or Triton 5 - should be well within your budget used or demo. They're very easy to drive but sound like much more expensive speakers. BTW, I have the PM8004, predecessor of the 8005, and it's a great amp. I generally feel you should match your amp to your speaker, not the other way around. |
QUAD 63'S CAME IN After about a month, the Quad's I ordered from California, have arrived. The long delay was my fault, and UShip's; actually UShip saved me money, as the Quad's needed packing, but UShip was very hard to get used to, as it continually erased their long forms, and sometimes wouldn't allow the proper select box entry [kept reverting to a simpler, WRONG entry]. In the long run, UShip saved over $100, compared to FedEx, though was the 1 month delay worth it? Later, I'd like a forum on UShip, vs the other carriers as FedEx, UPS, DHL and USPS. The Quad 63's are pristine, coming close to new; and include factory stands, upping them about a foot. As I've never heard Quad's before, the difference between them and my JBL system, was not even close. Magnitudes, would be the proper description. Now, I'd imagine I'll never leave the Quad's. Playing 3 albums, classical, Moody Blues live, and In A Godda Da Vida by Iron Butterfly. The Moody Blues brought out the midrange the best, as I heard all types of sounds, that I'd never heard before.. like a couple of instrument's that had been hidden, some drumming and stage yelling between the performers.. These sounds were separate, and clearly heard, where before on many listens, they were hidden. Quad's [electrostatics, vs the newer smaller Quad boxes], have a reputation of passing a square wave, that no other speaker can do. Simply put, passing a square wave, mean's an ultimate fast rise time, that most speaker's can't do. Quad electrostatics, starting with the 63, have a ring of sound, that are delayed, a little in each ring at a time, to approximate the "pebble in a pond", duplicating the exact sound, as nature intend's it. These ring delays, are designed in loops around the speaker, from center outward, with increasing long and longer delays [controlled by circuitry]. Because of Quad's "unearthing" the mids, bringing new, unheard of, sounds, out, I don't think many other speakers could do this, especially with an almost unheard of quick rise time. If anyone's heard of speakers, that can play these "new sounds", normally unheard, could they post it? Quad's, the best... |
@gdnrbob Ha! Thanks for that. These little speakers are really nice. Can't complain for $100. The Stereophile review is pretty accurate to how I hear them too. Little dude is definitely interested in what's going on with the stereo. It'll be so much fun as he grows, and maybe, enjoy listening to music with his dad. We'll see! |
@willowbends Totally. It's not so much a money thing right now, but a timing one. With these summer months ahead it definitely makes more sense for us to prioritize the budget towards exterior house projects, small weekend trips, and so on. It also gives more time to really think about a system I want to put together. I'm still learning a lot, and have always piecemeal-ed components. But if I wait it couple be plausible that I'd be able to afford speakers and matching amp at the same time. |
@Bomd, you still did great. I have never heard Kirksaeter, but knowing how serious German's take technology, I can only assume that they sound pretty good, probably very good. And, indoctrinating children with well reproduced music is a great way for them to learn what instruments should sound like. Bob |
bornd Best luck with your toddler.. soon he'll be a big boy.. Family comes first.. All children deserve the best life their parent's can give.. An innocent childhood.. The Quad's, took me a long time to save, and I gave up a lot of other belongings for them. They are within reach, now. These Quad's are a lifetime investment from here on out, and I'll use them a long long time.. While your saving for Quads, you can decide which parts of your sound system you may replace, trade or sale, Often I think, would I rather have Quad's or the motorcycle [the fictitious motorcycle isn't used much by the family, but everyone will hear the Quad's each day]. Also on non-speaker audio components, before you upgrade a piece of gear, or replace an amp with a different sounding amp.. ask yourself: "Is this upgrade or replacement amp, better than Quad's?" It's your choice, but world class speakers like Quad's, are not easy to replace with more common fare... Life is often priorities, and having to decide what you want, over time.. A tough choice, but over time, you can make it.. |
@gdnrbob I believe those retailed for around $700. A local dealer to me has a used pair for $400: https://echohifi.com/details/11209/ Gosh, I wish I could score a $2k speaker for $100. That would be amazing! |
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@gdnrbob // @willowbends Hey guys, Thanks again for all the feedback and suggestions. Long term I might be thinking Quads will be my speaker of choice. Money-wise, I ended up shifting things around to account for bigger summer/house project expenses, and decided to hold off on my main speaker upgrade. To help satisfied the itch I did score a pair of Kirksaeter Silverline 60s for only $100. And they are in perfect condition. They're easy to drive, and really musical for my taste. Plus the grilles aren't the easiest to move; ideal for my (now) 20 month year old who is very curious. The wood trim offers some style, but I'm not too concerned about the MDF cabinets with the toddler playing around them. I know some of you may be scratching your head. Wondering why I would prioritize my speaker choice with a toddler in mind, but the stereo is in a shared family space, and don't want to invest up to $1000 when I'll mostly be worrying about a hyperactive little boy playing around them. So figure I'll keep saving, keep listening, and one day will start building a next level system. Thanks again. And always be open to more input as I grow my system. Cheers! Matthew |
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You've gotten lots of great info. @bomd, are there any Vandy dealers near you? It would behoove you to give them a listen. Quad's and Maggie's are both fine speakers. If I weren't a Vandy fanboy, I would have them in my listening room, but since I have limited space, they will have to wait. I will say that I had a pair of Zu Union (Omen predecessors), and when run with a pair of Atma MA-1's and MP-3, the sound was pretty darned close to my Vandy Treo's (I did have them hooked up to the Vandy 2w subs at the time). The Vandy's had a better dispersion and presentation, but they also cost a lot more. Bob |
Speakers... speakers... I've owned JBL's [many, including Professional], Altec's [James Lansing's brother] and Professional, Wharfedales, ESS, Thonet & Vander's [German], Monsoon's, home made speaker's often with JBL parts, and much more.. then bluetooth's like more JBL's and Benq's.. [Benq's are electrostatic's with woofer's].. floor electrostatics like Acoustat ESL's which were airy.. As several other's here like JBL's and Vandersteen's, I agree, though they're boxed.. Magnepan's, starting at 600$ for entry level or maybe $250 up used, are very good, and have that airy sound, but lack some bass..[they are dipole speakers, like Eminent Technology's and Monsoon's, sounding superb]. These speakers, sound a bit like electrostatic's, and some like Eminent Technology's use woofers.. You may also look at expensive Apogee's, but their impedance often goes down to 1 ohm, and few amps can drive them. Apogee's and Martin Logan's are a cross, using woofers and often electrostatic mid's and high's, like Monsoon's and Eminent Technology planars or panels.. Recently, in the last few day's.. I journeyed back to Quad ESL's, much like my former Acoustat's.. Without ever hearing a Quad, and with a lot of experience reading about them in forum's [there are whole Quad forum's, discussing 57's, 63's, 988's, 989's and later, often with the comment of "Quad XX is the best speaker ever made"], I ordered Quad ESL's. Much more expensive, even used, because they retain value, and older 57's are several time's more than retail when first made. A large part of Quad's sound, is that they're already powered by in-the-wall chargers, and hence the amp, doesn't take that much to drive them.. around 15 to 25 watts, on up.. My Quad's will be driven by AR tube gear. So when they arrive, I'll get the best sound, Quad's driven by AR's preamp and amp, with sources of FM by Dynalab, CD and computer, using a DAC for analogue listening.. Later I'll add a turntable, but have to research which are best, in these forums.. If you've not purchase yet, Quads, even used, may be best, and retain value.. The rest of your system, can then "catch up" to the Quads.. Later, you can discuss what amps, tubed or SS, drive Quad's best.. No matter what you do, electrostatics, planars, panels or dipoles, will keep calling you back.. |
@kenwood61 Thanks for explaining. Helps me understand a little more about the Wharfedales. I really like Quad's aesthetics and there are good deals out there for the 11Ls and 12Ls. Really wish I could demo them locally though. But oh well! Kef LS50s are great too! I demoed them at a local shop listening to jazz. They were very musical. Without a grille, and the high gloss finish, I am hesitant to have those with my 18 month old around. That said, I have read that the Kef R100s share similar specs as the LS50s, but offer a wood cabinet and grille. Thanks again for all your input! |
Hi bomd, it's been about 4 years since I heard the Diamond's and it took me about 30 seconds to know they weren't for me. There was nothing interesting about them. Granted, most of my experience is with vintage speakers. But I have heard modern speakers I liked better. The Wharfedale's also seemed one dimensional and somewhat lifeless. A few days before listening to the Wharfedales, I auditioned some the Epos Epic 1 speakers. The Epos had a more natural, crisp presentation, that was nice with simple acoustic material, but as soon as it needed some guts for rock, or anything with solid bass, forget it. Right after listening to the Wharfedale's, I went into a different audition room and heard the Harbeth's they had. Don't remember the model, but boy, those were amazing! I didn't ask how much, because I knew I couldn't afford them. They brought the Quad's in to the room and it took me about 10 seconds to know they were for me. I brought Muse "Second Law" (CD) with me because of a few songs I think really test a speaker. The songs are "Madness", "Survival", and "Panic Station". I'm sure you have music you know well that will help you find the right speaker, if you decide to only buy what you can audition first. I owned the Quad's for awhile, but I also had the Vandersteen 2C's and JBL L65 Jubal's ... I listen to a lot of rock, and some jazz, and blues. While the Quad's were really nice, I had to sell something, and they couldn't compete with the Vandersteen's on most material, and I knew at the time I would be selling the L65's. I think the Quad's are the kind of speaker you can easily sell and get your money back out. They are more exciting in what they can do for the price, and their size. I know there are powered versions, but there is something about that I don't like ... I assume they are de |
I have tried to like Wharfedale Diamonds in a few models, but couldn't. I personally wouldn't buy anything I couldn't hear, unless I knew I could get a full refund or could sell and get my money out. I will say that the best smaller speakers I have enjoyed were Quad 12L's, not the powered version. Nice looking speaker that I felt had a nice range and some punch to it. I compared with a B&W 685 S2 and thought the upper range had too edgy of sound from the metal dome tweeter, and they frankly weren't exciting for me. There was something about the Quad's I liked better. Maybe a little more musical with jazz, acoustic, and the reason I bought the Quad's was I wanted something that would sound good playing Muse. In the end, they left as well, because my Vandersteen 2C's were more convincing. Just be careful to not assume that most modern speakers are better than the best of yesteryear. I agree there are many vintage speakers that aren't that great. But ones that were cutting edge and actually sounded great, are worth considering. There is also better resale value if you buy right, that won't necessarily be the case with new stuff. I may sound biased, but I don't have thousands to spend on gear so for me, I have found quality vintage is the way to go for now. |
I’ve had the Tekton Lore, I’ve had Zu Druid, I’ve had multiple Martin Logans electrostats, and multiple Revels, not to mention multiple B&Ws. The Revel is the best "all around" speaker IMO. But all depends what kind of presentation you prefer. The Tekton was fine but the midrange was nothing to write home about. The Zu have a fantastic "live" quality to them. Super fun but the frequency response curve is atrocious. Some recordings sound awesome and some recordings sound terrible. The Martin Logan are exquisite but the presentation can lack body. The B&W CM9 was OK but can’t touch Revel F52 or F206 for accuracy. Sounded relatively muddled (like some other cheaper B&W I’ve had). The Revel has no particular weakness that I can identify. And for the price you can’t touch F36 for $899 used. Spoke with Revel today about a couple things and they cautioned to make sure used F36 don’t have a defect the guy is trying to unload. Find out where purchased (5 yr warranty only from authorized dealer, is transferable I think) , if serial # intact, get original invoice etc. Maybe all moot cause local pick up only. :/ |
Zu is kind of unique sound. Very high efficiency. If you say not after clarity, brightness more leaning neutral Zu is not that. Your budget is kinda limiting. Maybe the best neutral speaker for the price are some used Revel F36s I see on Agon. They are white though. And they are towers so junior might be a problem. But SQ/$ Revel F36 for $850 is gonna kick anything IMO. Anyone has a better SQ/$ example lemme know. Would like to check it out. |
If you consider floorstanders then JBL (especially in bi-wire configuration) have excellent sound signature and tremendous valus (price/quality)
Also would like to recommend spatial audio |
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Haven't listen to a/d/s for a while, but sold them throughout the 80s and owned the floorstanding, mirror imaged L-1230 model, (dynamic full range speaker but room dominating). My favorite "bookshelf" was the L-710. I say "bookshelf" as they are 21 5/8" X 12 1/4" X 10 1/2" and weigh 35 pounds. They would fit in a mid-century inspired room very well, especially on their factory metal stands. Some preferred the larger L-810 or later L-780 or 880. All are beautifully built, unique aesthetically and well engineered, but time marches on- I suspect today's class leaders would sound more open and accurate, (also not sure how well the a/d/s doped dome midrange & tweeters age). |
Matt, email me at [email protected] and I will help you out. Al |
I'm a big Vandersteen lover. I don't know why more people aren't. But that can be good since you can buy 2C's between $400 - 650, depending on condition, and where you are in the country (local market). I can tell you that I have owned the 2C's and now the 3A. When I got my 2C's, I was in a 10x10 room with wood floors and slanted roof. Easy to dial in and easily the best speakers I have owned up to that time. I kicked out some JBL Jubals (L65), Dahlquist DQ-8, and a few others. Vandersteens are fairly efficient, and are designed to be forgiving towards the source power. Case in point, my brother in law just picked up some 2C's for $400 in 8.5/10 condition and running with a Pioneer SX-850 ... they sound great. His mind is blown. I loved mine so much, I jumped on a mint set of 3A's from the original owner. I was in a 15x20' room, but now in a 9x10. I have them positioned so they still sound great. Of course, I can tell they would bloom more with more space, but that will be next year in the new place. But I'll tell you that if you do buy Vandersteen, make sure you get some good quad cable (Canare) and bi-wire. I know the idea doesn't seem to make sense, but I've done testing in my own system, and found it does make a slight difference. Enough to be worth it. If you like mid century modern look and want something off the ground, I would take a serious look at ADS. They have butyl rubber surrounds on the woofers, and I have never seen a bad one. Some models are better than others, and some have metal grills, and walnut veneer. Dahlquist makes some good shelf speakers like the M-905 and M-907. Build quality is good, they use good drivers, and they are under most people's radar, so you can usually find a good price. As you can see, I'm not a big fan of new speakers, for your price range. You can buy so much more speaker for that kind of money, that are built like furniture, and hold their value better. Just buy smart. |
Thanks Bomd, Zu sells direct, but you can find them used here on Agon and Ebay. If you buy new, they do give a trial period, but I have to say they do require break in to sound their best. One of the reasons I recommend Zu and Vandersteen is that they stand by their products. I own Vandersteen Treo's (3a sigs beforehand). If I needed help, I could call Vandersteen and would receive a call back, often from Mr. Vandersteen himself. Zu, also is very accommodating. They repaired a defective binding post at no charge even though I was not the original owner(-I also had some other work done, which I paid for). I own a pair of Zu Union (Omen predecessors), and compared to my new Treo's, I have to say they were remarkably close in reproduction. Though the Vandies are much more refined, I was impressed by the fact that the Zu were doing it with a single driver. B |
I have been following your other post. I believe, given that you currently own and enjoy a system, that you explore the speaker market prior to changing out your amp. In your price range there are many moderately sensitive speakers that can be driven by your Rotel. The Marantz amps you are considering are very good products in there price range, however don't provide a great deal more power than does the Rotel, should the need for power arise (do to speaker choice). If you find you need more power to drive your new speakers without strain at high volumes you then can search out another that not only provided the needed power but is a sonic match to your speakers and tastes as well. Many excellent speakers have been recommended. It seem that you can audition many of them. Do so. Good luck in your search. |
@glennewdick Proac Tablets or just about anything from them can find used in your price range. _____________ Example of something that would fit your room. Thank you! Loving your suggestions and really like those ProAcs!! |
@returntomusic Have you listened to the ELAC UB-5? Nice balanced sound with excellent imaging, detail, and bass for the size/price. Throw in Dayton Audio 24" metal stands for a little over $60 shipped, (Parts Express). Use some black Goriila tape to fill wire holes on center column and fill all three with sand. Blue Tack the speakers- I'm using a NAD D3020 amp & sounds great to my ear. Music Direct gives you 60 days to check them out with your room & system, if you can't get a local shop to give a home trial. I haven't listened to Elacs. I understand they are pretty incredible for the money. Thanks for the tip regarding a budget stand option. Cheers! Matthew |
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BUT Im not sure the Rotel is musical or sweet sounding enough for that option. I say upgrade the amp first, then speakers will be easier to find that will work for you. @mattmiller Hi Matt, I’m curious if you have any thoughts regarding the Marantz PM8005 or PM7005. Last week I posted a thread in the Amp forum asking for Marantz recommendations. A lot of folks suggested to keep my Rotel and replace my Polks first. Now I am having second thoughts regarding that choice. A local shop of mine had the Totem Dreamcatchers powered by the 30 W per channel NAD D 3020. I thought they sounded very musical powered by that NAD (which I also own). Do you think the Dreamcatchers will work well with the RA-12? Thanks for your input! Cheers,Matthew |
