Ref-75-SE delivered ...


It arrived late yesterday via UPS. I had company over last night so I didn't hook it up 'till this morning. I had it playing by 7:30.

I sold the REF-75 early last month and was using my spare, which is a great sounding ARC- Classic 60. Man, if someone is looking for a musical amp at a reasonable price, the CL-60 would be a good way to go. It kind of has that vintage tube sound. Listening to music through it, is kind of like watching a good Technicolor movie. Hey, who doesn't like watching the original version of The Wizard of Oz? Its not right, but its beautiful. I mean, when you walk outside, Technicolor doesn't hit you in the face ... reality does.

Which brings me to the REF-75 and the REF-75 SE.

I bought my original REF-75 over two years ago, brand new, with KT120 tubes. What struck me about that amp was the lack of grain, the soundstage and the tonality. It played big and it played beautifully. That's what I thought until I swapped out the KT120's for a new quad of KT150's. Now that brought the amp up to a new level. Audio nirvana, I thought. Hummph, silly me.

Enter the REF-75 SE.

Fist thing, I let it cook for about a half hour in order to get the amp to stablize so I could check the bias. Good thing too because both sides needed biasing. The right channel was all way over to the "Caution" level.

Upon initial listening, I was really taken by how quiet this amp is ... I mean QUIET!! Not digital quiet, that kind of quiet just sounds totally artificial to me. What I mean is ... its a natural quietness unlike any tube amp I've ever heard.

For the first two hours, it was better than the REF-75 it replaced by maybe 20% or so. At the two hour mark, things really started to open up. Here's what my notes say:

Quiet!
Articulate.
Dynamic.
Decay of notes.
Presense.
Fast.
Leading edge of notes.
Weight in the lower registers of the piano.
Sustained notes - has me hanging on a thread.

So how does this play out when listening to music?

Like most of us, I have a little section of records (among thousands) that I use for reference purposes. They are the ones I listen to first when evaluating new equipment. I know every nuance of these records. Listened to them hundreds of time.

First up - Sue Raney on the Discovery label. The SE allowed me to hear the volume of air, and the force and reduction of force that was coming out of Sue Reney's chest and up through her throat. On the third cut, there is a triangle that the percussionist delicately hits. With all previous amps, I thought there was just one triangle. Turns out, there are three. For the first time, I could hear the slight difference in the notes. That was hidden before.

Second up- Sammy Davis Jr. Sings. Laurindo Almedia Plays. Reprise RS-6236.
Again, like the Sue Raney album, the air coming out of Sammy's chest and across his vocal chords and all of the subtlety of that was in his total control. Then, I realized that all of the really great singers do this and that's why they have the great instruments they do.
The guitar work being done here by Almedia is superb. Not my favorite guitarist, but on this album his playing grabs you by the emotions. BUT, through this amp ... a different world. The leading edge of the notes and the subtle decay of those notes make this album extra special now.

Keep in mind that we are only two hours in on this new amp at this point. The sound stage is still constricted and the 3-D imaging is on a par with the Classic 60, and not as good as the old REF-3.

Over the course of the day, I continued listening for a couple of hours each time. The more time that passed, the better the amp got.

Next Album .. about 4 hours in: The Norman Luboff Choir .. "But Beautiful" Columbia CS-8114. This is a demo quality record that has a tremendously wide sound stage. Its fun. The chorus is spread behind the speakers and goes from wall to wall. And now, I'm getting a 3-D image like never before. The articulation in each chorus member's voice has never sounded better ... not even close. There is a female soloist named Betty Mulliner who has her place behind and just to the left of the right speaker. With all other amps I've had, she has sounded diffused. The original REF-75 brought her out of the mist ... but not like the new SE. Now, she is in total focus and its like I can see her head move and hear her lips smack. I can get a true sense of her personality. Same thing on every vocal record I played today. Get this album if you like beautiful classic pop music from the 40's and 50's

Next: John Williams Paganni:Guitar trio - Hayden: Guitar Quartet. Columbia MS 7163. Again, this is a sound stage spectacular. I love this album, not just because I'm a classical guitar freak, but because its a great test of equipment when looking for correct tonality. Like the once vague female soloist in the last album, there is a cello in the right rear of the sound stage that keeps getting more refined as my system improves. With the REF-75SE .. gone is the vagueness. All of it. That cello is now in the room, tonally correct, and very moving. And John Williams? For the first time, I heard the strings of his guitar vibrate. The decay of the notes seemed to last forever. How may accolades can I pile onto Mr. Perfection on the classical guitar? Buy this album, you won't regret it.

Finally a mono record to die for: Dave Brubeck's Jazz Impressions of The USA." This record never came out in stereo. Near as I can tell reading the liner notes, it was recorded sometime in '55 or early '56. This is Paul Desmond at his very best. Not as hard boppin' as the Oberlan College album ... but man 'O man ... the second cut "Summer Song" has Paul Desmond right there in the room. Its never sounded better than today.

So, that kind of gives you guys a hint of what was going on at my place today. The amp burned in for 12 hours, and toward the end the sound stage has filled out nicely, dynamics are startling, musicians were in 3-D relief, and most importantly to me, the instruments all sounded tonally correct.

My source tells me that at this point, the amp is only scratching the surface. He says ... wait until 200 hours has gone by before seriously writing any review of the new amp. I couldn't wait ... its that good. Bottom line for all ARC REF amp owners ... even at this early stage, I can honestly say... the SE kills the old amp. Go for the upgrade.
128x128oregonpapa

Showing 44 responses by oregonpapa

Digital quiet ... When CD first came out in the early 80's, I was one of the first to jump on the bandwagon. I bought one of those Phillips top loaders for $150.00. Yep, I was taken by the silence between notes and no surface noise just like everyone else. Then I started noticing the artificiality of the silence. It had no ambiance like in real life. In fact, on orchestral music, it sounded to me that changes in the volume of the orchestra was nothing more than a recording engineer with his hand on the gain dial moving it up and down. The early Telarc recordings were among the worst in this area. To be sure, digital has come a long way over the years. It was that artificial silence that I was alluding to in my initial post. Hope this makes a little more sense now.

Bruce ...

Thanks for the heads up. I'll get it fixed post haste.
Bifwynne ...

The only show I'm aware of is the one in Newport Beach -
May 29 to 31. Its about 2 hours south of me down the I-
405, truly the highway from Hell. I go every year with my
Golden Eared buddy Robert and we spend the weekend
wandering around greeting old friends and asking the
audio demo-captains in the various rooms to take
Patricia Barber off of the turntable and play one of our
great thrift store record finds. Last year it was a Ravel
string quartet on the Angel label recorded back in the
early 60s (blue label). Truly mind blowing. In the best
ARC room (Optimal Enchantment), Randy was kind enough to
put the record on ... and there wasn't a sound from
anyone for the entire 20 minute side. That quartet was in
the room in full three dimensional relief. IMHO, that was
the best sound at the show and to date, the best
reproduced music/sound I've ever heard. Everyone had to
see the cover. We LOVE doing that. Folks in this hobby
really need to know that there is great music out there
beyond the 45-rpm audiophile stuff. You know, like
natural sounding recordings without all of the added
reverb.

The Newport show won't disrupt anything ... so I'd say go
ahead and send your amp in. I'm sure digging mine.
Bifwynne ..,

It was the Newport show two years ago. The speakers were
the big Vandersteen speakers. Don't remember the model.
It was magic. Last year, with the exact same equipment,
except the ARC REF-250's were swapped for Vandersteen's
new amps, the magic simply wasn't there. Very good
indeed, but no magic. Sorry 'bout that.

Salectric ...

Nice to see another Sue Raney fan posting here. Yes,
that's the one I have ... "Sue Raney sings the music
of Johnny Mandel with the Bob Florence Trio."
Discovery Records - DS-875. It keeps getting better as
the system evolves. I saw Sue Raney in a live concert at
our local Civic Arts Plaza a few years ago. She
autographed one of her CDs for me. Man, that woman has
pipes. By the way, Salectric, if you like Sue Raney,
you'll also like Irene Kral. Look for her album
"Kral Space" on Catalyst Records - CAT 7623.
Recorded June, 1977, Alan Broadbent-piano, Fred Atwood-
Bass, Nick Ceroli-Drums, Emil Richards -Vibes &
Percussion. Wow, check it out ... I found one on Ebay for
you: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Irene-Kral-Kral-Space-LP-
NM-EX-Jazz-Vocals-Vinyl-/301149035944?
pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item461de19da8

Don't know if you're aware of the Super Sax albums, but
this one has some really good Sue Raney solos on it:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-SAX-LA-VOICES-Vol-2-JAPAN-
LP-OBI-28-3P-522-Sue-Raney-kR4-/271321392556?
pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2c03e5ac

Dbarger ...

List on the REF-75-SE is 10k. Gulp! Send her in. *lol*
Tubegroover ...

You've nailed it. Here's what I suspect. A lot of the times we are communicating with younger folks who were born after the digital revolution took place. Its understandable that they don't get it. Nothing against them at all. Hey, my grand kids think I'm completely crazy. I mean, why in the world would "Gramps" want to record his favorite records onto cassette tapes to play in his car when he has perfectly good MP3's available to him? hahaha ... their loss, is all I can say. And by the way, my car has a Mark Levinson sound system in it ... and with my analog recordings its pretty damned amazing.
To Salectric ... and anyone else who is interested:

Got up this morning and had the amp warmed up by 8am. Its at 25 hours from new now, and has kind of hit a plateau. Not surprising. My experience in breaking in the new ARC gear is that at times, for a few moments only, it can even take a backward step. But then ... there is a jump to a new level of refinement.

On the records. I'm really enjoying this thread because its turned into not only an amp review, but a review of some of my very favorite music. I love getting audiophiles away from the audiophile recordings, much of which has great sound, but not much in the way of soul. So, I'm going to continue to make such recommendations ... take them for what they're worth to you. Keep in mind that I'm an older guy, much older than most of you folks posting on this site. To give you an idea ... some of my mono Bruebeck albums, I bought in high school. I used to hang out at the Lighthouse Jazz Club in Hermosa Beach back in '55 & "56 while in the 11th & 12th grade. Yes ... I can still hear. *lol*

So, speaking of mono records ... The first record I put on to accompany my first cup of Guatemala's finest this morning was: Doris Day's "Day By Day." This never came out in stereo, but its the kind of mono record that get's you to thinking: "Hey, who needs stereo?" Like most young men at the time of Doris' peak in the movies, I literally fell in love with her. She was America's sweetheart at the time. She was known by most as a movie actress, but she was a terrific big band singer back in the '40's. Her voice is as sweet as her looks. The nice thing about a great piece of gear like the ARC-REF-75-SE, is that it allows us to get much closer to the performer. With vocals it gets us up close to the actual personality of the performer. This morning, I fell in love with Doris Day all over again. Add this to your mono collection ... you won't be sorry. She sounds like her face. I mean, who wouldn't want to invite her into their room. Take a look:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DORIS-DAY-DAY-BY-DAY-MINT-MONO-COLUMBIA-RECORD-1957-/321708106730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae74c23ea
And then, after Doris Day ...

I put on Jo Stafford's "Ballad of The Blues." Here's another one of the 1940's big band greats. Yeah, I know, White girls can't sing the blues ... riiight. This album has so much going on within it ... its a great one to use when evaluating your new upgrades. On one cut, there is a traditional jazz band playing way back in the right rear of the sound stage. The original REF-75 brought them out pretty well. Prior to that, they were pretty diffuse. Well, the SE version brings the band into their own. Listening around Jo Stafford's voice, I could really enjoy what this band was doing and could follow every musical line. There is another cut called "John Henry." For impact, someone strikes an anvil. Well, with every amp I've had in the past, I THOUGHT it was an anvil. With the SE, I can clearly hear that its the percussionist striking a chime. He's dampening it somehow so that there isn't a decay like a chime would do, but so that it comes across like an anvil would ... deader than a chime. Maybe he's touching the bottom of the chime with his fingers or something. Any percussionists in the room? Maybe they could tell us. Anyway, that kind of tells you how defined this new amp is. I work on the weekends, so I had to tear away from the audio system. More listening tonight. Stay tuned.

On the Jo Stafford album: Try to get the six-eye stereo version. This is what you're looking for:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JO-STAFFORD-Ballad-Of-The-Blues-LP-re-Jazz-/300986199700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46142cee94

Happy listening ...
Abrew19 ...

Do you have anything positive to add to the topic or the thread in general??

Just wondering ..
Thanks, Taters ... Yes, that's it ... The Vandersteen 7's. Driven with all of the best ARC gear, I have never heard such realism from any audio system. That string quartet was right there in the room. Front to back, side to side, you could just sense the musicians moving about. But then ... 30k for a line stage, 30k for a phono stage, 150k for the turntable, 10k for the cartridge, 30k for the amps .. and I think the Vandersteens are over 50k ... it had better sound spectacular. And it did. Here's the good news: The state of the art in this hobby seems to filter down to the manufacturer's lower level products. The REF-75-SE a case in point. Not that 10k is chump change by any means. But hey, ARC's integrated amp is no slouch either. Other builders do the same as well. A friend of mine just bought one of Rogue's latest pieces ... and he's delighted. And Atmosphere's little 60 watt mono amps have a mid-range to die for. Had them in the system for over two years on a long term loan from a friend. Beautiful little amps.
My source told me to simply ignore the trolls and Negative Nancys posting in this thread, but I just couldn't resist. Sour grapes, anyone? :>)

Herb1 ... Good choice. Please post here when you get them back. I've "heard" that the first pair of REF-250s that were sent in for the upgrade were completed and sounded "amazing." Hopefully, all of the guys getting their amps back will post the results here.
Well, I'm old, but thank God I can still hear.

To the naysayers ... even those who are just having a little fun poking at us ARC guys ... no offense taken by me, None. In fact, I kind of enjoy poking your ribs in return. :>)

With that said, in one of my last posts, I said that the amp seemed to reach a plateau of sorts. Kind of got a little dark sounding. I've had this experience with the last few pieces of ARC I've bought. During break-in, even a small step backward may occur. Its just the parts breaking in.

That brings me to last night's listening session.

At 40 hours, there was a significant breakthrough. I put on one of my Paul Desmond albums. Its on the Artist House label: AH-9402. Its a live performance recorded in 1975 at Bourbon Street, Mixed in 1978 by Don Thompson in Toronto, Canada. Its a "must have" for any Desmond fan - superb performance and audiophile quality sound.

About a third of the way through the first side, things opened up in a dramatic way. It was like I was transported into the club. If you've heard "Jazz at the Pawnshop you'll get the drift of what I'm talking about. The difference is ... instead of Swedish musicians trying to emulate Desmond, you have the real thing right there in front of you. There's some amazing guitar work by Ed Bickert that really shows off the speed of the amp with the SE upgrade as well.

Here's something that really hit me and was fun to listen to: With all previous amps, and like the "Pawnshop" album, you can hear the servers clinking the dishes. Well, I always thought they were dishes on this album, but with the SE upgrade you can clearly hear that they are bar glasses, the heavy kind. Its like the bartender is gathering them up with two hands and maybe putting them in the sink or something. Maybe with the next upgrade I'll be able to tell if the water in the sink was rinse water or soapy wash water. *lol*

Here's where we're at now. We can all sit back and say to ourselves, or hear our friends say ... "man, your SYSTEM sounds great." Last night the comments were ... "Man, THOSE GUYS SOUND GREAT!"

Is my exuberance over the top? Perhaps ... but I know my music, I know my record collection, and I know what I heard last night with this Paul Desmond album: Magic.

If you're interested, here's one for sale on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAUL-DESMOND-self-titled-s-t-LP-Artists-House-AH2-1978-NM-gatefold-/131335718730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9438074a

And this one, while not a live performance, is just as good musically and performance wise. Jim Hall on guitar.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAUL-DESMOND-East-of-the-Sun-DISCOVERY-840-nm-w-Jim-Hall-Percy-Heath-Kay-/380659384073?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58a1113f09

Happy listening, guys ...
Timrhu ...

*lol*

Would you believe that I actually smelled Paul Desmond's tobacco breath?

I didn't think so.
Tsushimal ...

You refer to ARC playing on a "crazy golf course." Hey man, this entire game of high end audio is a crazy golf course and the green fees are expensive as hell. Is the purchase of Lyra's flagship worth 10K? Well, that system I alluded to at the Newport Show two years ago in Randy Cooley's room was using the Atlas and it was simply amazing. The best sound at the show that year in my opinion. So, there was that cartridge at the forefront of a system costing over 300k. For the well heeled person who would buy such a system, the price of the Atlas is a drop in the bucket.

How about a pair of Venture speakers at 80k? That's the price of admission to experience what is most likely a speaker with the finest finish in the industry. The Venture speakers are beautiful. You also get a builder who is one of the kindest, least assuming, finest gentleman I've ever met. With the right gear, the Ventures go further to suspend disbelief more than any speaker I've heard. But of course to get it right, there goes another 300 grand out the window. That 300 grand is just for the electronics to drive the speakers. Now would you like to talk about the cost of the custom room addition to house the whole shebang?

Hey, someone, somewhere is buying Tom Port's "Hot Stampers" at $500.00 a pop too. Not to mention 15k for a meter pair of ICs.

In the ultra high end, there are no bargains. You pay the entry fee and then you get to play. That's the choice, pay the fee, or continue modifying Dyna 70s and PAS-3s.

Ferrari doesn't build cars for everyone, right?.

My point is ... you seem to have a particular negative bias toward ARC. Is it that you don't like the sound of ARC gear, or is it just something you have against the company in general? Lay out your case once and for all, then be done with it.

Take care ...
Jamnesta ...

As a semi-retired person myself, I couldn't agree with you more. Its important to make the purchases wisely. Buying quality gear is part of making purchases wisely. There's less depreciation and there is always the manufacturer to back you up in case something goes wrong. I'll bet if I offered a pair of Marantz Model Nines for the original price here on Audiogon, they'd be snapped up in a nano second and the buyer would be telling the world about what a steal he/she had gotten.
Tsushimal ...

Sorry man, but you left me pondering the unexplored depths being probed by your wife's gynecologist.

I suggest that instead of trolling these boards in an attempt to find a whipping boy to assuage your infantile ego, that you go elsewhere. Start your own thread of insults and see who wants to play with you.

In the last post I made referencing you, I said the following:

"My point is ... you seem to have a particular negative bias toward ARC. Is it that you don't like the sound of ARC gear, or is it just something you have against the company in general? Lay out your case once and for all, then be done with it."

But of course, instead of standing up like a man and answering the simple questions, you just HAD to continue being an ass.

Now then ... be gone with you, You're not worth my time.
Salectric ...

That Paul Desmond is one fantastic sounding record. Desmond at his finest. And wait 'till you hear the presence of the guitar on this record. Demo quality all the way. Good choice. Man, I love turning folks on to good records and music.

Take care ...
Tsushima1 ...

Well congratulations, you almost made it through an entire post without making a smarmy personal attack. Almost.

Look, I could care less about exchange rates and biasing. That's not what this thread is about. Perhaps you should start your own thread addressing your concerns regarding tube biasing and exchange rates. Hey, you could start a series of threads ... one where you discuss capacitors, another discussing resistors and another one discussing slew rates. I'm sure some folks who frequent this site would find topics like that to be very interesting ... perhaps even orgasmic. For me, its about getting closer to the music ... and the SE upgrade certainly does that ... IN SPADES!

With that said, lets agree to disagree ... and move on.

One final suggestion ... install a spell checker.

Take care ...
Thanks, Carey ... you are spot on in your assessment. I, like you, wouldn't want to go back to the standard REF-75 either. And that's after thinking before the SE upgrade that if my system never improved from there, I would be perfectly satisfied. What you and I are experiencing with the SE upgrade will soon be experienced by others on this thread who are sending their amps in for the upgrade. Once they pass a certain break-in point, they will be saying some of the same things we are, I'm sure. All I know is, I'm enjoying my vast record and CD collection more than I ever have ... and I've been in this hobby since the 1960's, a record collector since the 1950's and a devout music lover since the 1940's ... capacitors, resistors, slew rates and tube biasing be damned. *lol*

Take care ... and happy listening.
Tubegroover ...

Actually, I'm 76 years old. I've probably lost some of the high frequencies, but I don't seem to miss what's not there.*lol*

The amazing thing is, I really consider myself blessed with good hearing at my age. Hopefully it stays this way for many years to come.

The upgraded SE has 65 hours on it now ... and is continuing to improve. Another report to follow. Stay tuned.
Timrhu ...

*lol*

My grand kids are all in their middle to late twenties ... and they think grampa is completely bonkers. Of course they have completely forgotten the times when they used to dance between the Accustat 4s when they were little kids. Now, the fourth generation has come along ... my first ... one year old great grand daughter. And you know what ... I think SHE's the bomb.

By the way, I was listening to some Chet Baker this morning ... "Chet Baker Sings." Mostly mono stuff, but the kind of mono that has you thinking: "Who needs stereo!" How so many of today's audiophiles can stand the stuff that's drenched in artificial digital reverb is beyond me.

The amp sounded fantastic this morning. More to come. Stay tuned. :>)
Okay ... 65 hours on the amp this morning and it has continued improving in every way. Honestly, I can't believe the realism I'm getting from the system now. And I know there is a lot more to come. The thing isn't fully broken in for 200-330 hours.

There is an album that was recorded in 1960 that is typical of great West Coast Jazz. It features Conti Candoli on trumpet, Buddy Collette on tenor, Vince Guaraldi on piano, Leroy Vinnegar on bass, and the great Stan Levy on drums. It's on the Crown label in both mono and stereo. The one to get is the stereo version pressed on red vinyl. That's the best sounding one. It's also available on CD. The CD version I have was rerecorded by Fresh Sounds. Its fantastic. Its a must have for any West Coast jazz fan.

I know this recording like I know the taste of great coffee. The new amp puts these musicians right there in your listening room. The SE version is so much faster than the old REF-75 that the rim shots from Levy's drums just hit you like never before. What a group!!

Here's what you're looking for .. the CD version:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conte-Candoli-All-Stars-Little-Band-Big-Jazz/360213846114?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29700%26meid%3D14712681c31c4de7b0fc76956a4ba26c%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D191544223143

There are a number of LPs for sale too, but be sure to get the red vinyl stereo one. its worth waiting for.
David & Gp ..

I had a golden eared friend over to hear the new SE version this morning. He's very familiar with my system. He's heard the standard REF-75 with the KT-150s in the system a hundred or more times in lengthy listening sessions. This guy is well known in audio circles and is a real critic believe me. He hears like a friggin' bat. His assessment was, the SE is better than the stock SE, even with the KT-150 tubes, in every way. He did say that he would like to hear the mid-range fill out a bit more (me too). But, keep in mind that the amp only has 65 hours on it at this point. My experience with the recent ARC products is ... a bit thin sounding upon initial operating until about 100 hours ... then at 200 hours, things really start cooking. At 300-500 hours the complete break-in is there. So ... while the new amp is sounding great to me at this point, much improvement is still on the way. The things I like in my system ... Tonal rightness, three dimensional sound stage, low noise floor, dynamics, speed of attack, great mid-range for vocals etc., are there already ... but more to come. Nice!
Here's my system:

Turntable: Original Well Tempered - modified. Tonearm rewired with Cardas wire. Custom belt by OriginLive. (highly recommended.)

Cartridge - Audio Technica OC9 MK III (Love AT cartridges) Besides being a neutral sounding cartridge, its terrific on mono records. Really gets down in the groove. Groovy!

Phono: ARC PH-8 Retubed with Upscale Audio tubes.

CD player: ARC CD-7 SE with factory upgraded power supply.

Preamp: ARC REF-3 Retubed with Upscale Audio tubes.

Amp: ARC REF-75 SE

Speakers: Legacy Signature IIIs - Cardas copper binding posts. 94db efficient. Can be driven with a 20 watt receiver or a modified Dyna 70. The REF-75 SE just coasts with this speaker. The Signature III's are no longer in the Legacy line. Too bad - its a winner.

Room treatments: Shataki Holograms - two against front wall, two in rear. (dramatic improvement - highly recommended)

Speaker cables: Music Advancement Company (MAC) biwired.

ICs - ARC balanced ICs between CD player and Preamp & between preamp and amp. Yes, ARC sold their own branded ICs a few years ago. I was lucky enough to score the last two.

Nexus ICs from Turntable to PH-8 & PH-8 to REF-3.

Power cords: Custom built by Dave Magnan.

AC filter: Custom built with modified filters built by Dave Magnan.

Wall sockets - upgraded audiophile quality.

VPI record cleaning machine.

Shelving: Custom built. Each shelf consists of three layers of wood with dampening material between each layer, then nicely finished with formica.

Custom platforms are under each component consisting of two layers of heavy, finely finished granite material with a thick layer of dampening material between the granite layers.

Mapleshade 2" thick maple platforms under each speaker. The platforms are spiked to the floor through the carpet, then the speakers are spiked to the platforms. (huge improvement in speaker performance.)

As you can see, there has been quite an effort to control micro vibrations in my system. The theory is ... the only thing we want vibrating in our systems is that little wire that protrudes from the cartridge body. This effort has paid off really well. It accounts for a lot of the 3D imaging and the "see through" quality of the system. ARC has been at the forefront in this area with their equipment. ARC owners are very much aware of these efforts with internal damping material and the tube dampening rings.

I use PRO Gold contact cleaner and contact enhancer on all connections including tube pins. Also, I periodically demagnetize my cartridge with my trusty old Sumiko cartridge demagnetizer. I make my own record cleaning fluid that I would put up against the best. I've tried most out there.

Happy listening guys. Stay tuned, more record review to come as the REF-75 SE continues to break in.
Wolf ...

And without "profit," the doors don't stay open, R&D shuts down and the next great product from that particular company ceases to come forth. When company owners and shareholders benefit, we all benefit. The only way they can continue doing business is to please the TRUE BOSS ... and that is we, the customers. Just free market principles at work. I have yet to hear quality stereo gear that has come out of Cuba, East Germany under Soviet Rule ... or Communist Romania. :>)
Taters ...

Thanks for your comments re: cartridges. I admit, the OC-9 MKIII isn't the end all in cartridges, but I like what it does, especially on mono records. I've had more expensive cartridges ... the Clavis comes to mine. Yes, it gave me more detail ... but did it give me a more accurate musical presentation? I love the Audio Technica sound. The next upgrade I make will be to the AT ART-9. Based upon what others have said about it on these boards, its like an OC-9-III on steroids. Same musicality, but a lot more refined.

Abrew19 ...

I can appreciate your take on my hearing. There is no doubt that someone my age has lost some high frequencies, but all of the other accoutrements that you enjoy about high-end audio are still intact. I've had more experience than most when it comes to hearing live music .. and a lot of it close up. I readily recognize the proper tonality of a soprano saxophone or the shimmer of a brushed cymbal for example. There is no problem recognizing front to back depth, or side to side sound staging. I know "live" from reproduced very well ... and that's how I judge any audio system, mine or the other guy's. Here's the true test of any audio system: When you listen to a jazz group on a good system, do you think to yourself: "Damn, this SYSTEM sound great, or do you think ... Damn, THOSE GUYS sound great? Again, I can tell that difference, and to me, that's the important thing. Its all about the music.

Daveyf ...

I agree with you on the price of equipment. I've heard systems costing 100-200k that seem to get a lot right ... like the soundstage all the way to the back corners, all the depth you can imagine, and transparency to die for ... but after 20 minutes or so of listening, you want to be doing something else. Why? Because it isn't making music. Its boring. On the other hand, I have a little bedroom system that's driven by a Sherwood 7100 receiver built back in the 70s that makes music ... and it has a great headphone amp built in too. I can listen to that cheap piece of crap for hours while doing my computer work. The thing makes music. The price? Twenty bucks at the local thrift store. *lol*
Wolf ...

Why do guitar collectors pay $30,000 for mint, vintage Les Pauls? Why not just buy a new Yamaha? Why would someone buy a new Ferrari for $300,000, when one could buy a new Corvette for $70,000 with the same, or better performance? What is the mystique about a Porsche Twin Turbo? Why would a stamp or coin collector pay millions for just one item? Why a 200 foot yacht, when a 100 foot yacht floats too?

What you're paying for is R&D, and the ultimate in performance. Granted, there is a point of diminishing returns, but for the affected nutz like me, and other's on this site, the last drop is worth having if you can afford it. And, you buy up to the maximum of what you can afford providing there is a definite improvement to be had.

Other things to consider are: will the manufacturer stand by the product after delivery? Will there be a trickle down effect from the factory's absolute state of the art to subsequent lower priced products ... like the REF-75 SE and the cool integrated amp ARC offers? Then, there is the profit thing ... the doors have to stay open, the light bill paid, the phone bill paid, the wages paid, the rent paid ...

It all adds up to expensive products that those willing to pay the price want to have. Its simply supply and demand.
Dbarger ...

If you'll read this thread from the beginning, you'll discover that I sold my REF-75 with KT-150's in order to purchase the new SE version. Long story short ... the new REF-75se makes the old amp sound broken ... even with the KT-150s.
Just a quick comment on the rising prices. Has the price of the equipment gone up ... or has the value of the money gone down? Has anyone checked out the price of beef lately?

Look, in 1965, I had a brand new house in Huntington Beach that I paid $20,650 for. Gasoline was 27 cents per gallon. Milk was 25 cents a quart and a steak & egg breakfast at Norm's restaurant was $1.29.

The monetary system isn't tied to anything anymore, so as long as the government's "printing press" is allowed to run with abandon, we can count on prices continuing to rise. Its called "inflation," the most evil type of tax in existence. It punishes those on fixed incomes, the poor and it robs savings. Until people wake up and demand that the money system be put back into the hands of the citizen again, we are screwed. The thing to remember is, fiat money is the money of slaves. Gold is the money of a free man.

Here's an essay written by Alan Greenspan in 1966 that explains it in detail:

http://www.constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm

So, there's my political rant for the day. I hope you young whippersnappers read it and work for change. :>)
Dbarger ...

No doubt, the REF-5se is a considerable jump over the REF-3. Not so, the REF-5. Even if the REF-5se is better than what I have, and I'm sure it is, I'm holding off until ARC comes out with a new line stage that takes advantage of that "trickle down" effect. In other words, I want my next preamp to have a lot of that technology that the two-box 30k line stage has. Will ARC do it? Who knows, but if history is the benchmark, they may.

Taters ...

The hedge against inflation is the fact that if the monetary system were based upon 100% gold backing, the only way for government to create another dollar would be if another dollar's worth of gold were to be dug out of the ground. Did you read the Alan Greenspan essay I posted? If not, please take the time to read it. I's pretty amazing and really informative.

Dweller ...

I loved your "Hours and Minutes". analogy. Very interesting. It brings up another point ... and that is the popularity of raising the minimum wage without the worker improving his/her efficiency, skill level or production quantity. Its feelgoodism ... and someone is going to have to pay for the difference .. namely, the consumer. Another hidden tax??

Back to the REF-75se.

75 hours on the amp now, and its breaking in nicely with even more musicality, presence and expansive sound staging.

I love harmonica music (don't laugh). There's a CD that those who love great recordings should try to find. Its Robert Bonfigleo live in concert at the Grand Canyon. This is a wonderful recording with a "you are there" presence. Jazz and blues. This is what you'll be looking for:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Live-at-the-Grand-Canyon-by-Robert-Bonfiglio-CD-1994-High-Harmony-b213-/321699745675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae6cc8f8b

I know this recording very well. Bonfigleo is one of the world's premier harmonica & chromonica players. He's amazing. The REF-75SE makes this recording come alive like never before. I listened to the entire concert tonight .. and couldn't tear myself away from it. The SE upgrade to the REF-75 has brought my entire music collection to life like never before. And, it gets better after it hits 300 hours? Wow!

Happy listening ... :>)
Wolf ...

You hit it. Its market based.

If McDonald's had lines around their establishments willing to pay $10.00 for a burger, they would be selling burgers for $10.00. Personally, I wouldn't pay fifty cents for a McDonald's burger. But In-N-Out, or The Habit? That's a different story.

On the audio stuff ... ARC, like all businesses, is in business to make a profit. They do that by satisfying their customers. When push comes to shove, the customer is the boss that every ARC employee, from the receptionist who answers the phone, to the CEO of the company, must satisfy. From my understanding, ARC's business is doing fine in every market they serve. So ... that means that they are satisfying "The Boss," no?

Evidently, based upon world-wide sales, ARC's customers have the perception that they are receiving value for the money spent. Therefore, can we conclude that your's is an opinion of one, that is not reflected in ARC's customers?

By the way, try that Bonfigleo CD I recommended. Its really an amazing recording. I wish all recording were done like this one.
Wolf ...

*lol* love the humor in your posts.

I can tell you ... in fact I've been telling everyone in this thread that I can "feel" the new SE version of the REF-75.

I don't care if the improvements in the SE version came about as a result of ARC sprinkling fairy dust on the caps and resistors ... the improvements are worth the money. Just my opinion of course, but why not take a listen for yourself? You may be surprised.

As for my audiophile buddies, they will find a box of adult Pampers sitting by my entry door. They will be required to put three layers on prior to any future listening sessions at my place. Don't want stains on my carpet due to their over exuberance.

I wonder if I can get away with charging admission?
Bifwynne ...

That three record set of Linda Ronstadt/Nelson Riddle recordings I have were pressed in France. I was lucky to find it in a used record bin in a Los Angeles record store back in the day. I have all three records on American pressings as well. All of them are good recordings ... and as you know, the music is wonderful. As a point of interest, Linda and Nelson Riddle had a fourth album almost underway right before he passed away. I have Linda's Mexican music on vinyl as well.

Living in Southern California, its easy to sucumb to the soul of Mexican music. I have a CD of a Mexican trio singing and playing guitars in a Mexican restaurant in Los Angeles that was recorded by a private party on a reel to reel tape that is to die for. Their singing and guitar playing is suburb. Also, if you like Mexican music, Some of the Bud & Travis albums are really good. Not great recordings, but the music almost makes you cry.

This is the Bud & Travis album to buy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VINYL-LP-Bud-and-Travis-In-Concert-Liberty-LDM-11001-1960-/191498051301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c962c5ee5

Its a two record set. Their version of "Malaguena Salerosa" is worth the price of the entire album. Like I said, not the best recording, but its my favorite version of that beautiful song. No need to understand the language ... but hey, I don't speak Italian either ... and I have a lot of Puccini operas. :>)
bifwynne ...

It a terrific set. As I said previously, I was lucky to find a set from France in a used record store in Los Angeles (Aarons). I saw the American pressing for sale on Ebay the other day. Here it is .. I found it for you. Its $19.00.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linda-Ronstadt-Round-Midnight-LP-3-Record-Box-Set-Asylum-Original-9-60489-1-LR-/111641226504?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fe55ed08

The REF-75 SE has slightly over 100 hours on it now ... and its suburb. The soundstage continues to grow in every way. The realism is getting mind boggling. I've been playing CDs exclusively for the past week or so. I can honestly say that CDs played with the SE sound better than vinyl played on the stock REF-75 by far. That's really saying something.

And by the way, I have it on good authority that several well respected reviewers have the new REF-SE's in hand. Their assessment? They all bought the amps.

Here's the best CD of the night: Harry Connick, Jr's "Only You."

If you like the old standard ballads, this one is for you for sure. I've listened to this CD quite a few times, but Connick's voice has never been so real and intimate before. Its funny, but I've never considered him to be that great of a singer. I just thought of him as kind of a Sinatra wanna be ... until I invited him into the listening room tonight.

The REF-75 SE really allowed me to appreciate the wonderful instrument that Connick's voice truly is. His piano playing is very moving as well. The strings of the orchestra are not strident at all, just very lush ... as in live. Here's the CD:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Only-You-by-Harry-Connick-Jr-CD-Feb-2004-Columbia-USA-Box163-/321705663929?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae726ddb9

I'm a fan.

Stay tuned ... more updates on the amp, and more music recommendations to come.

Happy listening ...
Bifwynne ...

You've mentioned your room abnormalities a few times. Have you considered the Shataki Holograms? Flimsy build quality, but the darned things really work. I have two pairs ...one pair against the front wall, and another pair right behind the listening position. The front pair made the most difference ... and it was night and day. The rear pair added about another 20-30% improvement. I've demonstrated them for friends by removing them and then putting them back in. They are all amazed at the improvement they make.

I had my golden-eared friend "Robert" over for dinner and a listening session the night before last. In my next post, I'll be talking about a string trio recording that's a must have. Oh ... and some really fine single barrel bourbon as well. :>)

Stay tuned ... the amp has 115 hours on it now.
Bifwynne ...

Yep, those are the ones. Like I said, flimsy build quality but they work. They transformed my room.
Rif & Bifwynne ...

It seems that anything extra that is in the circuit detracts from the sound quality. That's why the equipment sounds better with the display lights turned off. This is correct, no?
I'm up to 170 hours on the new amp now. It continues to improve. Last night I put on a sound stage spectacular. Here's a promo copy for sale on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANDREAS-VOLLENWEIDER-White-Winds-Original-PROMO-LP-from-1984-CBS-FM-39963-/361281480275?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541e0de653

The sound stage was from floor to ceiling and from wall to wall. I'd recommend this album to anyone who doesn't have it. On good recordings like this one, the sound flowing out of this amp just seems to wrap around you and immerses you in the music. Its like watching a Cinerama movie of sound. The only other time I've had a sound stage like this was back in the 80's with my Accustat Model 4's driven with 800 watts per channel of high quality solid state amps. Wow!

Happy listening ...
My pleasure, Bob. I wish you could have stayed longer. There's something magical that happens when the new amp is on at the three hour point. I continued listening after you left, and wow ... just wow. I'm looking forward to hearing your system. I love Venture speakers. By the way ... that Scotch was killer.
Dweller ...

I'm sure the REF-5se is much better than the REF-3 that now resides in my system. For now, it will have to do. I forget the brand of Scotch Bob brought over, but man, was it good. Nice and peaty. One you should try is Glenfarclas. Nice step up from Mcallan. I'm more of a bourbon man now ... but Scotch used to be my favorite. Hadn't had any for years until Bob brought over his bottle. Like they say in Southern California ... delicioso!

By the way guyz ... if you want a stereo sound stage spectacular, buy this record. Throw it on the turntable and crank up the sound. It fills the entire room ... wall to wall and floor to ceiling. Also available on CD:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Strong-NM-copy-of-New-Age-artist-Andreas-Vollenweiders-1984-White-Winds-LP-/181732912680?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a50202e28

Happy listening ...
Thanks again Bob. Looking forward to hearing your system. I love the Venture speakers. Besides the great sound, I don't know of a better finish anywhere.
OK, I've now reached the 230 hour mark. The amp is really coming into its own at this point. The clarity has remained about the same from the 100 hour mark to this point, but what is so striking at this 230 hour mark is the improvement in soundstage width and depth. Honestly, after the amp is on for two hours its really amazing ... but at four hours, the music just seems to wrap around the entire room. I'm lucky enough to have a number of CD's that were burned from master tapes. The "YOU ARE THERE" presentation from the SE version of the REF-75 is something that I never thought could be gotten from home audio. But then ... there are those great recordings on vinyl. Even better!

Recordings for this post:

1. Chico Hamilton Quintet: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHICO-HAMILTON-QUINTET-lp-SELF-TITLED-1225-NM-PACIFIC-JAZZ-DG-MONO-/221766481121?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a24ff4e1

Pearl Bailey:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PEARL-BAILEY-PEARLS-PEARLS-LP-125-/321758810611?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aea51d1f3

Erica Morini:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ERICA-MORINI-tchaikovsky-violin-concerto-LP-VG-XWN-18397-Westminster-Mono-/351036099874?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51bb61cd22
This is the mono version. The stereo LP is extremely hard to find, and very expensive when you do find it. Its available on CD though.

Lovin' my music collection like never before thanks to the ARC REF-75 SE.
On that Chico Hamilton Quintet album, be sure to get the stereo version. Most offered on Ebay are the mono versions.
^^^  Hi, joeind ...

I just checked the amp. It now has 1744 hours on it from new. I'm a long way from re-tubing, but when I do, I have a spare set of KT-150's that I pulled out of my REF-75 before I sold it. They have, maybe, a total of 250 hours on them. I sold the old amp with a good set of KT-120's. 

I'm more than happy with this amp. Here's the deal ... everything I posted in this thread has been improved dramatically. If you have either a REF-75 or the SE version, I highly recommend that you swap out the stock fuse for a Synergistic Research Black fuse.

http://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-black-quantum-fuses

You will need a large  5 amp slow blow. 

What I thought was a grain-less amp, has become something that lives in another stratosphere with the fuse change. Its simply amazing. 

Take care ... 


^^^  Thanks, Joe.  

Music has been a passion, along with good literature since I was a child. My mother was the big influence on me. She had a good collection of 78's and a decent record player. I used to get up early on Sunday mornings and quietly go into the living room and play her big band music and the vocalists that came along with them. I've been a Jo Stafford and Frank Sinatra fan since I was seven years old.

Now, seventy years later ... I'm still hooked on Jo Stafford and Frank Sinatra.  Of course, the musical taste has been widely expanded since then. As I write this, I'm listening to Merle Haggard's "greatest hits" on Spotify.   There's an old saying ... "If you ain't heard Merle Haggard, you ain't been listening'"  ":-)

I'm really looking forward to the Newport show this year. My friend Robert and I will be there Saturday morning through Sunday evening, if anyone reading this would be interested in hooking up to meet. 

Take care ...


Hi, decibell ... 

I still have the ARC REF-75se. I'm enjoying it very much. Everything I've said in this entire thread still applies. 

As additional upgrades have been made to the system such as cables, fuses, room treatments, etc., the amp just reveals more of what it does well.   

On the parts issue:  I know the circuit board has been lowered in the chassis to accommodate the KT-150's.  The lid didn't fit on the old REF-75 with the KT-150 conversion because the tubes were too tall. Also, I know some of the wiring was upgraded. I think I heard that the circuit board is thicker as well to reduce micro vibrations ... but I'm not positive about that. As to other parts that were changed, a quick call to ARC would get your questions answered. 

I wholeheartedly encourage you to send your amp into ARC for the upgrade.

Frank