If you want to do it right spend right as well. Forget that Pioneer with those boxes of tapes. The price is too low.
How good is your vinyl front end, including phono ? I am not even close to knowing this stuff but I researched the subject, started a few threads here and talked to people outside this forum. Otari two track with four track playback capability appears to be the best value. There are a few models. All XLR balanced in/out. Couple of Technics too. I would choose Otari, it should be more durable. If you are lucky you could find it for about $1500 in good or better condition, so you wouldn't have to have it professionally looked over and calibrated right away unless you wanted to. Yeah, tape cost ranges from about $50 to $100 for Maxell NOS back coated. I cannot advise but I myself would start with vintage Maxell not modern incarnation of BASF and AGFA. Yes, I know, there is a risk, the tape is old, might not have been stored properly etc. I would start with Maxell because I know for a fact that in cassettes Maxell Vertex back coated is the very best tape and a great tape at that. Same or very similar tape as in reels. If you take type II cassette tape Maxell tape is also the best, better than TDK, BASF etc. and AGFA is junk. Reputable company never makes junk even at their lowest level. BASF and Quantegy vintage should be alright. You would have to compare, but there is also a question of longevity and reliability. Point is you would want best tape even if you have a modest deck.
Anyway, it would all cost you, and as Bill said, if you want to buy pre-recorded from a reputable source, it might be a fortune. How does $200-$500 for one reel sound to you?
15 ips speed is not necessary if the recording is not good - 7 1/2 ips would be enough, but again you would have to compare.
Playing tapes is a serious thing that requires attention, including deck maintenance from time to time. This is not this funky records spinning - just set up the table once, clean the records and go.
Personally, I have decided most likely not to get Otari and save up for Studer A810 or A807. They say there are also some excellent Sony pro machines, I'll consider them too. Studer transport is incomparable, it seems, and that's the most important thing to begin with. Just like in vinyl set-up the most important part is table itself.
ReVox as poor man's Studer - two track high speed - might be all you need, I don't know.
Tape is great, tape sounds best, tape is fun. But it is not consumer medium like vinyl, discs and computers, it requires effort.
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Tape recorded off vinyl will not sound better in every respect. Tape recording has better flow coherence and 'sound saturation '. It might also have a better drive and some differences in sound that are hard to put into words. Certain things will be lost in the process of the recording, no doubt, but minimally if your deck and cables are really good. Think of the recording to tape as a kind of re-mastering.
When recording digital to tape the difference is more, I always prefer tape. |
Again, deck does re-mastering when recording and the better it does it the better the sound. But it will never sound better than the analog source in every respect, this is nonsense, regardless of the number of magnetic particles. The recording will have certain advantages, as I stated, that might be particularly important to the listener, me included. It will not have greater dynamic range or resolution. Let's differentiate reality from BS. Some of you should question your hearing, preferences is one thing and hearing is another. Well-done pre-recorded tape is a completely different matter if you have a good deck in perfect order. |
Nor only do you turn the speakers off when recording, you turn everything off that is not needed. But that's not why tape has an advantage in certain elements of sound even when it is a recording from vinyl. Besides, speaking of vinyl reproduction, playing records is a very 'bumpy' ride and there is nothing you can do about it, that's how it is. Yes, top level set-up minimizes it but it is still there. Vinyl is not a true audiophile format, understand and accept this, people, once and for all. |
I understand. But for me open reel deck would make perfect sense. I don't play most of my records entirely so I have to jump and move the needle. I would make compilations. Another idea, very difficult to realize, is to find master tape dubs of the performances that were never released. Just take a listen on youtube, there is a lot more than officially released material. Pre-recorded easily available tapes, in addition to being extremely expensive, is not the music that I would listen to, perhaps with a few exceptions. No, tapes won't live as long as records but you can play them hundreds of times without any signal loss. I would sell most of my records after making recordings, except most valuable. German Audiophile Society is said to be the best place to look for rare stuff, I bet you better have connections there, any way. Legally, it is probably very much a grey area, but in any case it is seller's problem. |
This whole vinyl thing is a money making industry BS. All the big ticket tables, arms, cartridges, phono stages etc. All we need is good tape decks and good pre-recorded tapes. Even no separate preamp is needed, though external play head preamp could take it even further. Right tape with gentle handling will last for hundreds of plays and for at least 30-40 years. For archive records is a good idea but that's all. |
Ralph, I don't fully trust your hearing and your neutrality and objectivity. Tape is overall superior to any LP pressing in real world. As for theoretical possibilities, I don't know, but there is always an issue of playback. Put $200k vinyl set-up against $25k Studer and the vinyl will lose big time, not just lose. |
I hope that audiophile tape movement is gaining momentum. It will always probably be a limited number, but if it is a very stable - it's good. Get in touch with Germans and Japanese, they got some stuff, privileged Americans do too. Where do you think Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon got his master tape dubs ? One reason why there are no better transistor amps than Gryphon.
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1/2" 30 ips, that's the spirit.
But..some master tapes are really old so in certain cases your best master tape dub is original pressing record. |
Anyone using 1/2" or 1" deck ? Big difference ? |
It is BS.
benjie, which one of your decks do you like more ? That Revox is two track too, right ? |
I don't know if anyone with open reel decks uses LAST tape head preservative but I do with my Nakamichi, before playing each cassette. I send my deck for service every three years or so, and despite having thousands of hours on it, the technician says that the head wear is negligible. This is of course not a substitute for head cleaning, though it cleans too. It also sounds a touch better. When recording I sure treat erase and record heads too with the LAST. It only takes a few seconds to apply, no hassle at all, great stuff. There is in addition LAST tape preservative, but I can't apply it with cassettes, with reels you can. Walter Davies of LAST, nice man by the way, said that he had used his own preservatives for all his reels and decks for many years. |
LAST is easily bought directly from thelastfactory.com or from needledoctor.com and some others too, I think, like elusivedisc.com and musicdirect.com. I usually buy directly from Walter - he makes more money this way, price is always the same everywhere. |
After this thread just go read about guys comparing $10k cartridges and saying that they all sound quite different. Of course, they all sound different, it is different colorations. None of those cartridges sound right, that should be the point. The same with tables and arms.
But if they start thinking like that their enthusiasm will go down big time along with inflated egos. |
For a man with a suppressed ego you are quite bold, maybe you underestimate yourself. Anyway, please don't get personal. And you don't have a pro deck, maybe you should get one ? Just get a nice Studer and you will know the difference. |
Yeah. I talked to him couple of times thru emails, his reply was very friendly and so detailed that at some point I couldn't continue following him because he was getting into chemistry. He was also very straightforward.
We can't really talk much here about speakers but it is a huge subject. I believe that speakers should be both transducers and musical instruments, this might be a utopia to properly design them like that but I think it's the right direction. Instruments do sound different, take two good guitars, as an example. Not right or wrong, simply different, and they have every right to be that. So do equally good but different speakers. Ideally, signal that reaches the speakers should always be the same or at least very similar, and then you choose the preferred sound of your 'instrument' - speakers.
Another thing about playing vinyl is that it is very difficult to find best table/arm/cartridge/cable match
With tape deck and pre-recorded reels you will come closer to that ideal. Besides, think of the simplicity of the set-up - deck, power amp and speakers. And minimum cabling, not to mention that deck reacts less to wall current quality fluctuations than turntable and to external vibration. You should still deal with internal vibration, of course. Another reason to get a deck with the best transport you can find and afford. Electronics can be modified.
Anyway, vinyl can sound truly excellent, we are just talking about something even better, sometimes much better. |
Ralph, you keep self-advertising, and that's that. That piece of s... Technics with Grado is nothing really, DJ toy at best.
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johnss, do you know who can be trusted with decks to service them and make necessary upgrades ? Studer and Otari. I would see no reason to go with Technics. Maybe pro Sony and top Revox too. |
clio09, thank you, appreciate it.
If that Otari is as good as it looks, the price is right. You don't save $1k when you go with higher end R2R deck. Technics transport is smoother than Otari ? Are you sure, that's unexpected ? |
That's the problem, when you hear something which is much better it is hard to go back to your usual sound.
It is the biggest reason why I listen to computer with headphones only. Computer cannot compete with my all analog main system. Well, if you get $15k streamer and $20k dac it might approach but still analog is analog. |
