Recommend a forward speaker


Apologies in advance for cross posting this on AA as well, but figure there might be some different suggestions over here.

When I say forward, I mean the music is presented forward on the stage, NOT necessarily bright (but could lean that way).

I've got a pair of Verity Audio Parsifals, and they are not forward, and although I love their coherent and open sound, sometimes I feel like the stage is just too far back. I've done a lot to bring it forward: silver cables (Stereovox), Amperex 6922 in my amps, Canary ca 160 amps, Emm front end, still, the basic character of the speakers are still laid back. The soundstage at this point is probably about 3 to 4 feet behind the plane of the speakers. I prefer it at or slightly forward the plane of the speaker. That's what I get for buying without listening first. Although, honestly, it took some listening to finally put my hand on this. I was so taken aback by their beautiful, open sound, it was hard to understand their presentation fully.
128x128dennis_the_menace

Showing 7 responses by shadorne

I agree with Peterb. Actually a forward presentation will tend to be 'brighter' in the upper mid range. It can sound harsh on some recordings but that is what real music sounds like. If you stand ten feet in front of a trumpet player at a live event then you will know what I mean.

Distance tends to filter out these frequencies....therefore a speaker with a "BBC dip" will sound as if the musicans are much further away...less harsh and more pleasant sounding but less exhilherating and less of a "you are there" sound. A forward sounding speaker should sound as if you are no more than five rows back from the stage and/or the band is in the room with you. It can be an extremely exciting and exhilerating presentation. It will however not flatter compressed pop CD's. This presentation requires powerful dynamic bass to sound correct and not resonant reverberant bass typical of small ported designs with impressive bass extension in a tiny box. Proper bass is difficult/expensive to achieve in a small two way hence the popularity of the "BBC Dip" as it makes a little Rogers LS3/5 sound right (as if you are seated far back...first or second balcony).

I would add ATC to Peter's good suggestion. ATC's are voiced flat in the mid range, which compared to most designs ends up with a very forward but natural presentation...many will find this presentation harsh but that is because the majority of speakers out there are voiced with the more pleasant and less in your face "BBC Dip".
ATCs: the active or passive versions?

I would go older passive 20's second hand or 35's (rare) for a modest investment to see if you like the more forward presentation. My concern would be that with the 20's you will want or expect more deep bass and this will require a sub. Not that the 20's do not have bass - they do and it is very punchy or fast - a pretty convincing kick drum...but they certainly do not do the bottom octave (20 to 40 Hz). If you get hooked on the sound then plan later to eventually upgrade to an active version. If not you have not lost too much in terms of an experiment. The forward presentation will take a while to get used to but it seems to be what you are seeking.
Try a professional quality EQ unit and liberally experiment with
relatively small boosts in the midrange frequencies and/or cuts in the upper
midrange.

This is a good idea, however, one of the ways that designers achieve a "BBC dip" and yet still present a fairly flat on axis response is to lower the off axis response in the upper mid range. This drops the overall upper mid range energy. An EQ will not fix this aspect only a different speaker with wider dispersion will help.

A good way to tell if your speaker is evenly loading the room is to step outside and listen from some distance down the hallway - away from any direct sound. If it sounds totally convincing that there are people with instruments playing in your stereo room then you know the speaker is exciting an even sound field. If it obviously sounds like reproduced "Hi-Fi" then you know it is not evenly loading the room. It is surprising but the ear/brain can recognize this quite easily. The balance of the sound field tells you whether a piano could really be in the next room or not. An unconvincing sound field with a "distant" or far back presentation lets you know that the piano is somewhere else further away and therefore could not be in the next room.
The beaming of line source and panels 'projects' the sound at the listener, and limits the higher frequency content of the room's reverberant field that exaggerates the localization of the source, thus making a forward presentation

My guess is that it has something to do with dispersion of and room interaction with the signal from the upper-mid range thru the highs. Be nice to know though.

I beg to disagree with Duke on this one. To me the narrow or beamed presentation is a dead give away that the vocalist or piano is NOT in the room but at a distance.

Narrow or beaming speakers such as the DAL SC V or panels tend to favor classical music (at a distance) whilst wide dispersion speakers tend to favor a jazz club or rock group more intimate presentation where you feel the singer is in the room (or you are five rows back)

Of course I agree with Newbee that part of the answer is in the way the ear/brain interprets the reverberant field as being realistic or not. A second element is the way the bass needs to be dynamic for listening close up otherwise the illusion in the mid range fails when you hear the kick drum. This is a frequency/dynamic range effect that you can also hear on some bad recordings where you have the disturbing impression that the vocalist is in your room but the drummer is somewhere at the bottom of a tunnel or far away or is somewhere backstage. The third piece is reverberant energy on the recording itself from the recording venue or as deliberately mixed (more often the case today)...this gives spatial cues as to placement of instruments and vocalists and it may easily interfere with the illusion of an intimate presentation if it is not achieved in a convincing manner.

If you want a non intimate presentation try Talking Heads Stop making Sense. An intimate or forward presentation would be Eva Cassidy Live at the Blue Note or Tom Petty's "Last Dance with Mary Jane". In fact the recording plays a big part of it.
Duke,

Correct - I didn't quote you - my mistake. My comment was more related to how you consider a narrow dispersion is more of a forward presentation than a wide dispersion...I beg to disagree on that one that is all. However, as Newbee suggests ....there is a lot to a convincing forward or far presentation, it is a combination of many things and dispersion isn't the whole story by far....
(Wilson Sophia) they had a very unnaturally truncated decay

What were you listening to? Are you sure it was not the recording? Could it be the setup or room? I find this observation surprising on such respected speakers.

FWIW: It is impossible to truncate the signal. Over damped designs (such as infinite baffle) tend to sound light in the bass but very musical. Under damped designs (more common) have a "bass hump" but tend to oscillate or resonate like a bell long after the sound stops (these do not sound musical as they add their own timbre or "puddingy" sound to the music and have a poor transient response...you can spot these designs from the frequency plot - just look for a bass hump or bump prior to where bass roll off begins)

=> What I am trying to say is that a lack of a resonant decay is actually something to aspire to in a speaker as it means it is highly accurate. The only difficulty with these designs is in getting enough bass output to please people who are accustomed to prodigious bass.

This "clinical" sound may take getting a lot of getting used to as it not common in most modern speakers which tend to favor light weight cones with small magnets and under damped designs that have prodigious bass for a smallish box (great value for money with warm prodigious bass but lacking refinement).

Suggestion => Demo the Sheffield labs drum tracks disc if you get another opportunity to compare these speakers. The "resonant" designs will add their own coloration to the sound whilst the "damped" designs will not. Spend a bit more time auditioning the Sophias if you can - they may be more accurate than you think on a first impression! Another test is to try many different types of music and see which speaker gives you the greatest difference in bass sound => this speaker will be adding the least of its own coloration whilst the "one note bass" or resonant speaker will have a tendency to sound quite similar in the bass on most tracks.

If after a while/more experimentation you still find Wilson Sophia has an "artificial truncated decay" sound that simply does not suite your tastes - then save yourself some trouble and do not go to any lengths to audition ATC (a critically damped type design).

IMHO, you should check out Watt Puppys as they may be more in line with your tastes...a very good dynamic and forward sounding speaker with a lot more warmth in the bass than the Sophias.
I told the dealer what I thought about the Sophias, and he told me that Wilson actually intentionally de-emphasizes the decay in their crossover.

I am not sure what the dealer means here. Any resonance will be controlled by the box volume, porting and woofer selection. Some speakers resonate due to the use of light weight rigid drivers (Ceramic for example) and these ring like a bell ( a sort of gloss or sheen to the music) at some non musical related frequencies that require taming with notch filters but are never completely absent (Audio Physics have ceramic mids in several designs)

Are you hearing something further up in the lower midrange crossover or upper midrange crossover that you don't like? I don't dispute your observations and only you can choose the correct speaker for your tastes. Crossovers are the main compromise in three ways. You may find active speakers sound more natural through the entire range, as there are no crossovers.