Khrys...You are quite correct about there being little in the way of music below about 50 Hz. With the exception of organ pipes and bass drums there is only turntable rumble and studio air conditioning sounds down there. If you operate a subwoofer with the grill removed this is obvious.
20 to 20,000 Hz is the accepted range of normal human hearing. Somehow this has become confused with the range of frequency needed for music reproduction. |
Sorry to rain on the parade, but I sometimes listen to a real piano played automatically by a floppy disc program. The sad truth is that no loudspeaker comes close to the sound of the real thing (yet), and the modern computer-controlled player piano can duplicate all the subtle aspects of the keystrokes by the performer. With regard to convenience, inserting the floppy disc is just like loading a CD. Unfortunately, it does take up a bit more room than a loudspeaker, and automated violins and cellos aren't available. |
Ritteri...Of course "close" is subjective. We disagree:) |
Muralman1...Ok. I guess that's right. It just seemed to me that everyone was getting a bit carried away about how great their speakers are, and I though that a dose of humility was needed. We still have a way to go IMHO. |
Ritteri...Of course you are entitled to your opinions (all of them). Just don't confuse them with fact. |
Ritteri...How do you know what experience I have? Again you quote your conjectures as if they were facts.
I play the violin. My wife plays our Steinway grand. I have screwed around with audio equipment since about 1953. My job involves the design and testing of complex military electronics. However, I don't claim that all this makes my ears any better than yours.
Again I say: your opinions (like mine) are of interest and worthy of consideration, but should not be confused with facts. |
Ritteri...Your credentials are overwhelming. Why don't you run for president. |
Onhwy61...I don't do pop/rock so I guess I missed that 41 Hz string. I should have said that classical music has little content below 50 Hz. And I should have mentioned hall reverb along with studio air conditioning. I was focused on the music.
Actually I do have an elaborate multi-subwoofer system that measures flat to 20 Hz, but it remains dormant most of the time. |
Ritteri ....Anarchist party, I presume. |
Frogman...Agreed: four full octives down from middle A at 440Hz results in 27.5Hz. How many composers have actually used this bottom key?
Here is the question that I would like to see answered.
My subwoofers are flat to 20 Hz, as verified by spectrum analysis using test signals and plainly evident by ear. The source electronics are capable of extreem LF output as evidenced by strong SW activity when playing certain recordings of organ music. A warped LP also keeps them busy.
However, when playing almost all other classical music, some of which subjectively sounds as if there is lots of bass, the subwoofer cones scarcely move. This is verified, not only by listening close to them, but also by lightly touching the cones.
Regarding the beat frequency subharmonics, these would be created in the listening room by proper reproduction of the fundamentals, and do not require reproduction of the subharmonic frequencies themselves. This is the same as in the performance venue, where the instruments do not directly generate the subharmonics. |
Ritteri...I'm glad that you endorse boosting 20-80 Hz by several dB, because that is what I usually do after geting the system flat. But I always felt guilty about it...like eating too much ice cream. I also use the tweeter padding resistors with my Maggies, to roll off the high end, and that gets flac also.
Organ music and bass drums do get down to the 20Hz range, no argument about that. It's just that organs and bass drums are a tiny fraction of the music I listen to. I don't do rock/pop, but I do know that it always sounds like it has a lot of bass content. However, this music is customarily presented via ProSound loudspeakers, that do not claim response below 30 Hz.
I have a CD of a German "um-pa" band with many tubas. When I find that disk I will make a point of checking for SW activity. I also have an LP of the Dukes of Dixieland which sounds as of it has a lot of bass, but to my surprise it really is not that low in frequency.
|
Ritteri...Not sarcastic my friend. I guess it is even difficult to agree with you. |
I hope that everyone read the link provided by Onhwy61 in his post on 11/22. I didn't know that recording engineers customarily put microphones inside the piano. As someone who has played a musical instrument I generally like close mic recordings, but inside the instrument seems extreem. |
Onhwy61...Uch!!! Why not just get a synthesized piano and be done with it? |
Frogman...Since a real piano can be perfectly reproduced (Ritteri told me so) there should be no problem making a perfect synthesized one. Right? :) |
Khrys...I think that your "going subless" is certainly reasonable. As I have observed, most of the time the SW cones are doing nothing. And "doing nothing" means exactly that. There is no subsonic hall sound that somehow gets reproduced without any motion of the cone. However, there are some recordings that do have hall sound, with cone movement, and there is some music that does really give the sw a workout. But these cases are few and far between.
I have an elaborate SW system built into the wall (3 systems/6 drivers), but it did not cost me a lot because I designed, built, and tweeked it. I enjoyed the construction process as much as listening. The amps are on a separate power switch. Sometimes I join the subless gang by throwing the switch. |
A casual look into a piano will reveal many stings that get hit by felt hammers to produce sound. One might think that the sound source is the strings. Actually, behind the strings, and below them in a grand piano is a sound board. This is a large area of thin wood, and its name indicates its purpose. The tonal quality of the instrument depends very much on the quality and condition of this wood. Note that the sound board resembles a planar loudspeaker.
I have noted that loudspeaker fidelity is often improved when the loudspeaker resembles the instrument in some way. This is most obvious with trumpet reproduced by a horn driver. I have also noted that the titanium tweeter in a small B&W speaker that I have makes violins (with metal A and E strings) sound very real. So, according to my theory, planar speakers have a head start in reproducing piano. |
Ritteri...It's a bit hard to follow your logic. Your analogy to a violin, where the wood body is what makes the sound, is one that I might use to explain the function of the sound board in a piano.
Your preference for cone drivers in boxes is just your opinion. Others may disagree.
The idea of installing a small driver in an actual violin body has long interested me, but I haven't got around to doing it yet. Do you have any spare old violins kicking around?
And Tubegroover...I may be a "skeptic" but after rendering my opinion I often go away quietly and do some experimentation. A "crackpot" idea sometimes leads to something good, even if the original idea isn't. My "skinny wire for tweeters" biwire scheme is an example...IMHO. |
Ritteri...Ok, if you don't like my theory about the titanium tweeter in the little B&W 550 speakers, give me another theory of why these little boxes reproduce solo violin better than most megabuck systems, and (by the way) my own MG1.6. (And don't forget, you are not the only one who plays a violin). |
Ritteri..Why don't you read other people's comments before sounding off? Perhaps you did, and just cannot understand them. For example: the B&W 550 are not claimed to be great speakers, just damn good at violins. The reason I mention this is because it is so very surprising.
Since you are a cones-in-boxes guy you evidently feel it necessary to disparage the MG1.6. I think that Maggies, at every price point, can speak for themselves. |
OK all you Kazoo builders! Your turn in the barrel. |
