Ready to try vinyl

Johnnantais,

I thought your posts were interesting if a little labor-intensive to read (and I'm sure to write). I don't disagree with you on principal, and I've been lurking on your Lenco forum now for a few weeks now (but now writing) with great interest. Since I don't have the time to address everything you said, I'll just bring up a few of your points I'd like to discuss:

You wrote that hi-end belt drive makers "DO have it all wrong, a case of the usual orthodox dogma not being questioned and everyone blindly following without re-examination"

So, I'm sure you are intimately aware of the R & D of all of these companies in their decisions to use belt drives, correct?

You were correct in saying that most of the TT makers on the list Judy and I compiled (very tongue in cheek I might add) don't fit into the buget of the entry-level tables we're talking of (let alone most people's bugets at all). I'm not saying that companies haven't in the past tried to sell lesser technologies as better than they are because they want to keep costs down, but I find it very hard to believe that given the high price tags of so many of these players (SME, Nottingham, Brinkman, etc.) that none of these companies have realized what you, in your infinite wisdom have, and moved to DD or idler motors. I mean, these companies are selling so few units a year for such high price tags, that they seem to jump on any even perceived tech edge they can. We weren't making that list as a set of recommedations to the original poster, but rather being smart-asses, and pointing out how unhelpful pshcyicanimals orignal post was. I never made a post saying "belt drive is better than everything else on earth and everything rotates around belt drive". Psychicanimal made a post saying belts were a waste of money and that idler/dd drives were amazing, but didn't give any examples of tables or even say why. It just seemed that was an irresponsible post, and highly unhelpful and even misleading for the original poster. Granted, we're all a bit off of topic now, and this really shouldn't be a debate over DD/idler vs. Belt.

The last point I'll address (so much for being brief, eh?) is in regards to the following comment you made: "For those who want to exercise a little thing called "independent thought" and who like hands-on experience, then I invite you to try the Lenco Challenge"

So you chided R_F_Sayles for unwarranted personal attacks, but it's midly hypocritical then to call anyone who can't be bothered making their own TT (your Lenco project) or who buys a readymade product a "slave" as you put it.
So anyone who buys a plug and play or belt drive table doesn't use independent thought? o i c.

In any case, I enjoy your Lenco project, and I haven't above, nor here, criticized the idea of DD or idler because to be honest I don't know enough about them, I was only chiding psychicanimal for his largely unsubstantiated post. I think you have some valid points, but you're a little heavy-handed/conspiracy theory about it all, no? You honestly believe that all the belt drive biggies are sticking to it because it's cheaper for them? I'm cynical of capitalism, but when you're talking about a record player that cost more than most cars, c'mon!

First off, it's good to rely on others responses (actually...ignore everyone elses except mine...j/k) and to read reviews of the products they recommend, but if you're willing to take the plunge into vinyl then you should do yourself the favor of at least buying a few good quality records in good condition (doesn't have to be 180 gram vinyl but it doesn't hurt) and auditioning some tables yourself. Take advantage of places like audioadvisor.com that offer 30 refunds, that way you can get an idea of different tables in different price classes. I have a music hall MMF-7 which I love (you can get these used, but the price is still about 700, which you can find for new decks if you're enterprising) but will sell at some point to get a VPI Aries 2 (or Scoutmaster...recommendations anyone?). How much you should spend depends on how much you like listening to music, and how much money you're willing to fork over, which really only you can answer. I think the MMF-7 is a good bet because it's good enough that you can put off upgrading immediately, but still leaves room for you to throw your money away on other expensive tables later, which is really what it's all about, right? Actually, even if you're not thinking of becomming an addict, then this is a very satisfying turntable with great sound, and nice looks to boot. I'm sure other (and more knowledgable) members have different recs.

have fun.

Well, now you're really screwed. If you think the tables ar expensive, just wait till you start buying software. hopefully a lot of other people will pick up on this thread because while I know a thing or two, this site is awash with some truly knowledgable vinyl addicts who have all sorts of amazing tips (many of which you can find by looking through old discussion posts or reviews). If you're buying vinyl online (which is still second in my opinion to hunting it down in a store where you can listen to it...but not everyone has Academy Vinyl, god bless them) then there are a ton of sites (do a google search and see what happens. Two of the sites I use are:

Http://www.amusicdirect.com
http://www.acousticsounds.com

BTW, 180 gram obviously refers to the weight, and you get even heavier...tracks better, probably less succeptible to warping, etc. When you hold a 200 gram in your hands you realize how wimpy your old lps feel. Anywho, like I said I'm no expert, and this is all a starting point. If you're going to buy a turntable though you'll not want to be ruining your new cartridge by playing dirty, warped, staticky old records on it. My suggestion, buy a few titles you know well that you can pick up new or in very good condition, buy a table from a place that has a 30 day return policy, and see if you like the format first before comitting any serious money. Some people find it a hassle performing the vinyl ritual when they want to listen to music (and belive me, between all the wiping, dusting, cleaning, etc, it can be arduous) but this isn't for the instant gratification type anyways, since searching out the media can be a challenge alone.

woops, while I love amusicdirect, the other site should have been.

www.acousticsounds.com.com

happy hunting

If it were me, looking back I would get the VPI Scout (I didn't have the money at the time, so it wasn't a possiblity) because it's something which you can upgrade if you choose (scoutmaster...superscoutmaster, etc.), but is truly stellar in its stock form. Don't get me wrong, I love my MMF-7 and you wouldn't at all be sorry buying one, but if you _do_ have the cash to spend and _do_ decide you wan't to get into vinyl (which is a decision that shouldn't be taking lightly, otherwise you have a very expensive paper weight on your hands, not to mention a hundred or so expensive frisbees) then I think the Scout has great longevity than the MMF-7. And all this coming from an MMF-7 owner. Anyways, I'm sure people are sick of my terribly long-winded and tri-fold resonses.

cheers.

Well, since you're just getting into this I agree that you probably want to buy a rig with a working cartridge that's already set up, that way you don't have to do all the mounting and aligning yourself. The cartridge and the stylus are seperate and you can have a cartridge retipped (given a new stylus) but it's rather pricey. If you can find a used unit where the cartridge and stylus have low hours and are said to be in good condition, then just check the sellers feedback. Most (but this doesn't always hold) sellers here are just like you and aren't looking to sell you a piece of junk. If you get a really good deal on a used table but the cartridge isn't included or isn't up to snuff, then I'd still buy it because you could always find someone to mount a new cartridge (or really, do it yourself, it's not that hard) and then you have the added fun of getting to shop for a cartridge. (maybe I am a glutton for pain).

What you'll find if you do like vinyl is that you may decide to switch your cartridge way before it dies out, because the cartridge alone dictates much of the sound, and there are so many different types, ranging from 50 bucks up to 100,000. The stock MMF-7 comes with a Goldring Eroica (a very competent cartridge). If you started with the MMF-7 (read the reviews in the absolute sound and elsewhere, because it does compare with all the $2,000 rigs and some higher than that) then you would have to spend much more to hear significant difference in sound. Same thing with the VPI Scout, but the scout you can send back to VPI for upgrades as you desire.

While pshcyicanimal is right in saying tha tyou don't have to spend around 2,000 to have a nice turntable, I disagree with his following comment:

"You must not go the belt drive route or you'll waste a LOT of money and end up with frustration"

Don't you love it when people make HUGE declarations and then don't elaborate. First off, what is this amazing 900 direct drive table you have, and what have you compared it to in the multithoushand dollar category. Secondly, what, juding by _your experience_ is such a waste about using a belt drive system. What exactly is the frustration?

Hopefully others will weigh in, but I think you'd be hard pressed to prove Psychicanimal's reckless assertion that belt drive is the lesser drive technology. This guy must be a DJ, my suggestion would be ignore him unless he substantiates some of his, in my opinion, false claims

Not to mention Avid, Basis, Brinkman, Pro-Ject, Well Tempered, SME, Musical Fidelity, Amazon, Microseiki, Acoustic Signature...etc.

Jeeze, I keep forgetting how these are all faulty and have horrible sound compared to the Technics SL1200. ;-)

(and for the record, psychoanimal, I have owned 2 1200s in my time, and while I think they're built like tanks and perform well, I don't think they sound as good as my lil ol' mmf-7 in the same setup)