I just got back from AXPONA near Chicago a couple weeks ago and the most enjoyable exhibit to my ears, was using the J.Sikora Reference table for their source, feeding Doshi tube electronics, feeding the amazing Joseph Audio Pearl Graphene speakers.
That system was the best sound that I heard at the show no matter which genre of music being played.
I am seriously considering the J. Sikora as my next and last turntable.
Best wishes,
Don
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mijostyn: Why would not buy one?
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The ''second arm problem'' by the (old) Stabi Reference can be solved by ordering an armpod by Reed + 12 '' tonearm and put next to the TT. That is how I solved this ''problem''. |
I used to use open reel leader tape when I was running my raven one, to good effect.
Are the Raven One’s still in demand? I have one sitting in a box with no arm that I have to decide to get up and running with a new arm or sell it. Can’t decide as it’s such a compact table compared with TTW, and maybe someday I’ll set up a second system.
I also use to run it on a sistrum stand sitting on a Halcyonics type active vibration system. |
mijostyn, No I mean ''the old one'' who deed not need an ''improvement'' for 25 years. So good was the design. The
new one (aka mk 2) has added arm boards for 10 '' arms
but is actually the same design. This ''explains'' its second
hand price. The new one cost 7000 euro. |
@nandric, I think you mean the Stabi Ref 2. It is an excellent table.
phantom_av, yes, they are good looking turntables. I would never buy one. |
For those who are not members of Rockefeller family I would
recommend Kuzma Stabi Reference ( two motors as Lew describerd). Second hand for about 3500 euro.
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J Sikora Reference Line uses 4 Motors and 4 Belts interesting design to say the least. Looks beautiful too. |
This was 12 years ago. One hopes the OP survived the pandemic and made his decision long ago before that. But I would point out to any remaining audience for this thread that there is in fact a good rationale for two belts versus one belt. (I agree with Mijo about 3 belts.) Two belts or two motors driving a single belt, where the motors are situated 180 degrees apart, will ameliorate the side force on the bearing and bearing shaft that is inevitable with any one-belt design.
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I also agree with rauliruegas. Either turntable will do fine with the one caveate that you should avoid the Raven Black Night. All belts stretch to some degree. The longer they get the more stretch you get. There is no advantage in three motors worth using a belt that long. With modern electronics a single motor can be extremely accurate. If it is not you want a different turntable. It is the arm and cartridge that are going to make or break the performance. A good arm should have neutral balance and the vertical bearing at record level. Examples of arms that meet these criteria are; the Kuzma 4 Points, The Reed 2G and 5T, The Schroder CB and the Tri-Planar. There may be others that I have not seen. Believe it or not the megabuck SAT arm does not. It is a static balance arm which means the VTF changes with elevation and the vertical bearing is high above the record leading to increased levels of warp wow. As for cartridges that depends on what you like but you can mount just about any modern cartridge on any of these arms with perhaps the addition of some mass in some cases. I personally do not like either the Grandezza or Raven tonearms as they do not meet the above criteria. I also believe like Michael Fremer that the optimum length for a tonearm is 9 to 10 inches. Less inertial moment is more important than less tracking error. It is advantageous to use the lowest mass setup that is practical. Which means staying away from cartridges with very low compliance and tanker truck tonearms. In addition Additional contacts in the tonearm cable system should be avoided which disqualifies arms with removable head shells and connection blocks on the output side. There should be one wire cartridge to phono stage. Magnetic antiskating is a nice feature as it avoids additional friction. IMHO and that of others, a tonearm should have a solid two axis bearing system.
New turntables are always a blast, have fun! |
Richard from Analogmagik has both and prefers the La Platine moreover his Raven. Hence he ended up with 2 La Platine in his audio room. |
RAVEN AC1 is best well built sounds wonderful with RAVEN 10.5 arm and Transfiguration Phoenix cartridge.I have had many tables am using battery power supply and feet from Black Knight. |
Platine for me, no question. |
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I have the Platine Vintage, owned it for 10 years and have no desire of changing tables. But I'm heading over to my friend's place this weekend as he has both the Verdier and the Raven right beside each other. Looking forward to it.
Joe |
Thanks Stiltskin. I hope you post somewhere on the forum your impressions of the 1/4" tape drive. I look forward to hearing more about it. |
No regrets
Going on to 7 months.
My previous table and motor speed control were the same brand.
Looking back I believe I just simply had a turkey speed control that slipped past quality control also to make matters worst the table came with a rubber belt.
TW Acustic do not use rubber belts to spin the platter, however I'm about to try 1/4 inch tape, some Raven owners are useing this now to good effect. |
Thank you all for your comments about the speed controllers.
Pcosta, would you care to comment on any differences you notice between the old and new powersupply?
Topoxforddoc, thank you for your comments as well. I sure do admire the looks of the Verdier tables. It sounds like I couldn't go wrong with either of these brands.
Stiltskin, how long have you had your Raven? I'd like to have that speed stability you are getting. Would you care to share what table you used to have?
Thanks again. |
No Regrets
I check my Raven periodically and so far its dead nuts with 33 and 45.
The motor speed control is the best I've used so far.
The Verdier table IS a beauty to look at and I just found out there is a dealer to the south of me, I'll have to pop in for a listen.
My previous table and speed control were poor at keeping accurate sustainable speed for any length of time. |
On my PV, the speed rarely changes. If it does, it's because the linen thread is starting to stretch. In that case, 2 minutes later, hey presto, a new thread is tied. I've used both the standard motor unit and the GT Audio battery PSU for the motor. The battery PSU does make a big difference. lowering the noise floor even more.
Charlie |
I got my new powersupply upgrade for the Raven in October last year and have not had to touch it once since. Everytime I check it is spot on with 33 or 45 rpm. I did not upgrade it for lack of speed stabilty either.
No experience with the Verdier. |
I'm curious about the speed stability with these two tables as well. How often do you need to fine tune adjust the speed to assure that the table is maintaining the correct speed? Do you need to do it before every listening session? During sessions at all? Every few weeks or never?
I know that these are great tables, but I'm wondering if these are issues that all tables deal with even at this high level?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. |
Stiltskin I basicly agree with you but have not heard either, hence my question as to what others have heard.
It was Raul's kind comment that made everything quite simple. To paraphase: Given the level of quality just look for what you get in backup, home install(?), warranty etc. That eliminated every question but choosing one that I like and going from there.
Thanks to Raul's many other writings, as well as many others on here, the next big question becomes the cartridge tonearm interface. But that's for a latter time. |
I dislike these VS threads but what can you do...
I agree with Raul.
With so many great performing tables today including modded vintage.
My choice last year for a new table ,arm and cartridge was a difficult decision with a budget of $14,000 less phonostage.
Verdier tables have changed little in their 20 plus year history and are certainly a great choice as are the Raven line including others.
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I have PV, but have heard the Raven many times at Graham Tricker's home (GT Audio). They're both excellent TTs. I bought my PV about 5 years ago and it has the GT Audio Battery PSU (top upgrade), Schroeder Model 2 and an Allaerts MC1B on it. Am I going to change now? No. I'm very happy with my TT combo. It makes great music and you forget about the equipment. That, folks, is what it's all about.
Best wishes,
Charlie |
Dear Uru975: At this TT quality performance level IMHO I think that it couldbe a little more important which tonearm/cartridge combination could go with those TTs.
Both TT are first rate and maybe you could ask your self which one has a best after sale service, dealer support, user friendly?, warranty and the like. In the other side a comparison between audio items always is system dependent and according to the system owner priorities.
I think that you can't go wrong with either, which one do you like it more?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
The UK importer of Verdier and Raven is one and the same GT Audio. I don't want to misquote him, but since he has taken on TW, I don't think he has sold a Verdier. The latter is still a good table, but TW is better value and superlatively built. I bought the Raven one and it is one of 2 items in my set up which is not changing any time soon. |
One of my audiophile friends made a comparison in his home, he owns a PV with SME 3012 and got a Raven AC with Schroeder Reference for loan.
The Schroeder was fitted with a very expensive cartridge (XV-1s), his was a cheap one, I modified 103R.
He told me, he prefers the PV, the "musical flow" with all - totally - different LP's (Classic, Rock, Folk, Jazz...) is totally different. It goes totally out of way in the reproduction, no stress, no pushing and it is uncolored. The Raven is a "fast" table, even Mozart is fast on it. No "timbre" in voicing ...I listened to a few Ravens and Verdiers, but always in different Systems and this is my opinion, too.
The Raven has the advantage for more arms (idea is a based on Micro Seiki).
Well, the report from my buddy is 1 year old, he told me, he never looked back when the Raven left his home. He replaced the SME with a FR-64s and told me, this is really superior to all his former set ups.
I agree with Paladin, a good PV is one of the very few real top Turntables. With a 12 DaVinci really something special.
Or with FR-66s :) |
My Verdier La Platine with a 12" Da Vinci Grandezza arm made a few believers of my friends that bought the Raven with Triplaner VII.
If you do go with the Raven - get the Grandezza as it's probably the best arm made. |
