Got word today that my Osprey is supposed to ship on Friday. Crossing my fingers that I won't have the hum problem that some others have had.
Oz
Oz
Raven Audio Nighthawk
So the scuttlbutt on the Raven integrated amps is pretty good. But just how good are they? Are they good when compared to other comparably priced tube integrateds? Or are they better than some heavy hitters?
I currently have a NOSvalves ST-45 amp paired with a Don Sachs Model 2 (latest version) preamp and I am extremely happy with this pairing. With that said, I guess there is nothing really that I'm looking to improve. But since we all know how this game goes, I just wonder how much better (or not) the Blackhawk III would be. Consolidating two pieces down to one chasis is an attractive idea too.
I would love to hear from you if you own a Nighthawk or Blackhawk or have auditioned one against something else. I know they offer a 45 day trial period, but from my calculations if I don't like it it will cost me close to 400.00 out of pocket once the dust settles. So I'd like to go into this with a warm fuzzy that it's pretty darn good.
Oz
I currently have a NOSvalves ST-45 amp paired with a Don Sachs Model 2 (latest version) preamp and I am extremely happy with this pairing. With that said, I guess there is nothing really that I'm looking to improve. But since we all know how this game goes, I just wonder how much better (or not) the Blackhawk III would be. Consolidating two pieces down to one chasis is an attractive idea too.
I would love to hear from you if you own a Nighthawk or Blackhawk or have auditioned one against something else. I know they offer a 45 day trial period, but from my calculations if I don't like it it will cost me close to 400.00 out of pocket once the dust settles. So I'd like to go into this with a warm fuzzy that it's pretty darn good.
Oz
247 responses Add your response
Well, millercarbon has got me reading all I can find on Raven. My concern is I’ve only used a B&K 200wpc (ex442) for the 15 years I’ve had a real stereo system. It is driving refurbished Ohm Walsh 4s and two REL T5 subs. The subs are using the high input and wired to the speaker binding posts. Speakers and subs are seamless, so switching to rca to the subs and a high pass crossover will be a deal breaker. It’s hard to just have faith 30 watts (osprey) will manage. The Ohm Walsh sensitivity is 89. Moving up to the Reflection puts me over the price of the Brystons I have been considering. Maybe I should find a used 30wpc tube amp and see how it does? Are all 30wpc tube amps created equal in terms of speaker driving force? I’ve never thought about tube gear much. i could also send the B&Ks to Musical Design for refurbishing. or continue enjoying what’s not obviously broken |
Are all 30wpc tube amps created equal in terms of speaker driving force? The answer is a hard "no". The quality of the output transformers can vary wildly from design to design. And transformers are the heart and soul of tube amps. Not having heard a Raven amp as of yet, it’s hard for me to say. But all indications are that they sound much more powerful than their power rating would indicate. BTW, I had your amp back in the mid 90s. B&K are fine for a budget design, but nothing great about them. Even if you need a more powerful tube amp than the Raven, I would certainly look to replace that B&K with something else. Oz |
i would never gush on and on about an amplifier i have never heard, especially someone who holds your Rel in such disdain.... transformers dominate tube amp sound. Consider a Music Reference RM-9 class amplifier for your Ohm. Roger Modjeski was a genius, hand wound his own output transformers and they were unique to each amplifier.... Oz, pulling for you to weigh in with reality..... |
@sryeager I had a B&K ST-140 for many years till I replaced it with a Rogue Sphinx, which then later replaced with a Blackhawk. Each change has been a significant step up in sound quality. I’m so pleased with the Blackhawk that I’m fully enjoying just listening to music rather than critiquing the equipment. Both the B&K and Rogue amps are 100 wpc, and I’m using the same volume setting (10-11 o’clock) with the Blackhawk as I did with them (my speakers’ sensitivity is 90db). Does Musical Concepts still do B&K mods? |
Well, millercarbon has got me reading all I can find on Raven. My concern is I’ve only used a B&K 200wpc (ex442) for the 15 years I’ve had a real stereo system. It is driving refurbished Ohm Walsh 4s and two REL T5 subs. The subs are using the high input and wired to the speaker binding posts. Speakers and subs are seamless, so switching to rca to the subs and a high pass crossover will be a deal breaker. It’s hard to just have faith 30 watts (osprey) will manage. The Ohm Walsh sensitivity is 89. Moving up to the Reflection puts me over the price of the Brystons I have been considering. Maybe I should find a used 30wpc tube amp and see how it does? Are all 30wpc tube amps created equal in terms of speaker driving force? I’ve never thought about tube gear much. First, I have to stress this is exactly the sort of problem I aim to avoid in recommending people avoid speakers under 92dB. Instead of stressing you would be happily buying and enjoying. Oh well. I put this out there for others, that they may avoid ever finding themselves in this situation. Also to maybe help you realize, there are actually speakers out there you might find a whole lot more enjoyable. It’s not like a skin graft you know. They are holding you back right now. I hope you realize that, as much as you enjoy them, they are holding you back. The high level sub issue is a non-issue. There are several options and I have covered them all in detail and happy to do so again. But all you need to know for now is as far as the subs go the amp is irrelevant, how they connect is irrelevant, and the speakers are irrelevant. Look at my system. Five subs, three different types, one powered four passive, and I have run them every which way- high level, RCA, you name it- and with different mains. Read my system comments. Some of them were with Talon Khorus, some with Tekton Moab. All mention extremely good coherent bass. Cannot stress enough how irrelevant this is in your decision. Get whatever amp you want, we will figure out how to hook it up. It will not be hard. Easy as pie. Ozzy62 is absolutely correct. Tube watts are nothing like solid state watts, I don’t care what anyone says these people are what we call "wrong". It isn’t even the tubes. It is what Oz said, the transformers. Look around, you will find tons of people with low sensitivity speakers like yours gushing about how the little Raven with 30 watts drives them with more power and authority than a hundred SS watts. This is what I call situation normal. It is a shame there’s people around here with severe MDS. Well a shame but entertaining once you are able to see it for what it is. My comments are gold. Some others too. But all that glitters is not gold, and you just have to learn to toss the fool’s gold up on the bank and go back to panning for the real thing. |
@millercarbon Agreed. Tube watts are definitely different than SS watts! I am enjoying the Boyuurange A50 Mk3 Psvane 300B tube integrated that Steve Guttenberg reviewed and recommended. This thing makes a nice soundstage with depth and imaging. It’s a bargain. Plus it puts out 7.6 wpc and drives my 89db Magico A3s with no problem. I have never had the volume knob past 12 o’clock. I am not sure I have even had it that far! This little amp has got me wondering if this Boyuurange can do this, what can a Raven Osprey do? |
Thanks for all of your input. XS137 - a couple months ago I talked to Musical Concepts/Design and they were doing B&K mods. i just lept on a chance for an in home trial of a used Rogue Cronus Magnum II this afternoon, and raced up I-5 to snatch it. At least I can experience tubes without making a purchase. It’s hooked up, biased, and I’m starting to listen. No hum or hiss. Subs are running high level, and I might have to back them off a bit. Certainly has as much power as the B&K’s 200W. I haven’t listened enough for a verdict yet. |
+1 ozzy pls tell us how that raven is... so much talk and pumping about these ravens by m-c (but i don’t think he actually has one 🙄 ) am sure it is quite a decent piece, made in usa, by good guys real enthusiasts... but we are talking about a rather standard push pull 6l6 pair per channel tube amp with output trannies... how ’head and shoulders above the rest’ can it be??? don sachs kootenay van alstine ultravalve roger modjseki rm’s vaic/ayons carver crimson various cj not to mention amps with real differentiating tech like linear tube audio and audio research |
am sure it is quite a decent piece, made in usa, by good guys real enthusiasts... but we are talking about a rather standard push pull 6l6 pair per channel tube amp with output trannies... how ’head and shoulders above the rest’ can it be??? Well I have owned several amps on your list. Music Reference RM 9 (original and Mark II) Carver Crimson 275 CJ LP66S CJ Premier 140 No way to say for sure how any of these compare to what might come through my system today, but at least I’m familiar with their sound. Charles, I have owned Quicksilver Mid Monos and Mike definitely makes good stuff. Oz |
@jjss49 -- the simple answer is that it competes very favorably in its respective price category. No, it’s not better than the other amps that you mentioned. I compared it directly with two integrateds that I have owned -- Cronus Magnum II (Blackhawk is slightly better, more tube-like vs. the CM which sounded closer to SS to my ears), ARC GSi75 (no competition, not even close, ARC is in another league altogether, as it should be given the price difference). The Blackhawk does well in my smaller home office (12 x 13) driving Harbeth 30.1s, but nothing spectacular. It is completely out of place in the larger room (20 x 15) driving SF Olympica 2’s (now sold) and Habeth SHL5+. Just doesn’t have enough juice to wake up the speakers - very flat and un-involving. But, of course, what do I know. I understand that the opinions of those who actually own this amp are not relevant at the Raven alter of worship :) |
the critical success factor in owning a tube amp that makes music well is working within its power envelope and matching to speakers that highlight the amp’s strengths and don’t often remind you of its weaknesses to ask a 30-35 wpc 6l6 amp to power 86 db/w/m 6 ohm harbeth super 5’s in a large room is a recipe for a fail... but maybe a smaller room, with 8 ohm proacs or spendors? or some devores? that would be a more appropriate use case otoh... klipsch cornwalls may be a little too easy a load... ****************************************************************************************** in a sidebar comment, now here is a honest to goodness seriously lovely tube amp... https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649727980-airtight-atm-1-original-version-with-tubed-rectifiers/ |
@arafiq, Very astute observations. I heard the Rouge tube amplifier years back and thought it a bit solid state like in comparison to a similar priced Quicksilver amplifier. Also agree of your Blackhawk against the ARC GSi 75. Very different price and performance categories. Not fair for the Blackhawk. Charles |
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I received my Blackhawk on April 1st and I’m still trying to get rid of the hum/hiss the amp is producing. I have isolated the power supply, cleaned up all cable runs, tried multiple speaker cables and speakers. I’m running corner horns with fresh crossovers and tweeters. I’ve also hooked up other SS amps and they are dead quite between songs at all volumes. Do you guys have any suggestions that might help? this amp sounds great while music is playing at mid volume but the hum between songs is maddening. This is my first tube amp and maybe some hum is normal but at 15’ it’s just to much for me. Any suggestions would be appreciated Thanks. |
I spoke with Raven a few days after receiving the amp and they suggested the amp might have gotten damaged. I did notice the hum came down in volume a couple days latter but a crackle started on the right channel. I updated Raven and questioned them about a possible bad tube or tubes but I have not been contacted back yet for further troubleshooting. I was hoping to avoid all the shipping fees and maybe get lucky with a easy fix. I bought new so I wouldn’t have to tinker to much but I guess I’m learning a lot from all you guys. I have a feeling this will be a fun expensive addiction:) Thanks. |
i remember my rm9 back around 2000 with mixed feelings - just beast of an amp... built like a tank and i remember hurting my back moving it... it was so heavy and of course the weight was totally lopsided, and it was also very hard to grip the amp from underneath to move sounded very nice on proacs though! |
@robertcropdust You say that Raven thinks the amp got damaged. When I received my Nighthawk it was not packed well at all. I even called them and told them that I was very disappointed at the packaging quality and effort, or lack there of, put into it. However, I think it's more of a tube issue than the amp issue. If the amp gets damaged, chances are you're going to have a dead channel or two not just a hum. Just my two cents. You did say you had a crackle out of one channel. I also had a crackle out of one channel in my Nighthawk. Ha... funny. You then go on to say that this would be fun and expensive addiction. ??? Sorry but how is that fun? How is it fun to purchase a brand new $3,000 amplifier and have issues right off the bat where the manufacturer thinks it may have gotten damaged and then you also have a crackle in one channel? Sorry, to me that is absolutely unacceptable and is exactly what I told James when I spoke with him regarding my disappointment with the amplifier. To me, that is not the type of fun I want to have, especially with expensive addictions. |
i would add here that i very much believe that makers of hifi gear, big or small, have a responsibility, even a duty, to their customers to design and supply excellent packaging that provides safe and trouble-free transport of their gear in this age of fedex and ups with their high speed sorting machines and conveyors, not to mention overworked and tired drivers/delivery people for amps and speakers that weigh alot, are often quite bulky, and are worth thousands of dollars, there is simply no excuse for not having a packaging design that is completely thought through and implemented without being cheap or cutting corners exemplary small biz cases of this are vladimir at audio mirror, and frank van alstine... terrific products, terrific packaging -- on the bigger end, audio research and conrad johnson set the bar for being absolutely top notch others, evidently, not so much - tis a shame and a disservice to the customer |
@robertcropdust I will be surprised if Raven doesn’t offer to correct it at no expense to you. When I received my Blackhawk, it had a bad buzz that obviously wasn’t right, though it was well packed with no visible damage. I called Dave at 9pm about it and he spent close to an hour guiding me to trouble shoot it over the phone. When nothing helped, he sent me a prepaid shipping label to return it to be fixed. After a week or so I got it back working correctly. Turns out a grounding wire had come loose possibly from being dropped flat during shipping (working at a company that receives shipments from UPS and FedEx daily, I wouldn’t be surprised). There was a delay with receiving my amp initially, and when I had to send it right back out, I was very frustrated and questioning my purchase. However, after listening to it as it was supposed to be, I was so pleased that all was forgotten. I think James may get overwhelmed at times. If you don’t get a satisfactory response from him, try Dave. In my experience he really has been responsive day or night. |
@devilboy yes I think this will be a fun journey building up my perfect system for my hideaway. I also think it can get expensive and addicting at the same time:) I do believe that Raven will stand by their product and I’m sure this will get resolved soon enough. I’ve ordered many thousand of dollars of avionics for my aircraft through the years and I have received damaged electronics that could have easily caused a very bad day for me and my family while flying. There is a good chance that FedEx might have tried for a 60 yard field goal with the wind in there face??? Who knows. I won’t let this experience with Raven stress me out there’s plenty of stress to be found elsewhere. I still have my old SS Yamaha to piss off my neighbors!:) |
I just took delivery of a totallt different $50k amp that had a hum in one channel. After switiching power cable. interconnects, speaker cables and some tubes it was still there. Similar to above it was a loose grounding wire. I also hada hum with an old Raven. I called Dave T and he walked me through it. It was simply a bad tube which can happen. It is very easy to test to see if you have a bad tube. However, it does require you to have another similar tube. Call Dave --- he is the brains behind the amp and he will take care of you. |
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