Very timely for me as well. I am trying to decide between the Raidho C1.1 and Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento. I am going to audition the C1.1 this weekend.
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The Dynaudio's will mate very well with the 956 mkII. Stands,of course will be of high quality for these C1's, that adds to the cost. Dynaudio speakers love power! I drive some Contour 3.0's (circa 1998) they are rated at 200w. With my McIntosh solid state amp, I can easily play them at 350-400W. Also, I have had the same speakers for over a dozen years and they still kick butt! Very dependable is what I say about Dynaudio.
I have spent considerable time with the Raidho C1.1 and D1 speakers. I was not able to directly compare the Raidho's to Magico Q1, but I was able to compare Raidho directly to the Q3. In my system, I preferred the Raidho over the Q3. The Raidho's were simply more musical and lifelike on most music. The Q3 had better bass extension, but whether that would be true of the Q1 I can't say. The Raidho's are really something special and are simply world class on vocals, strings, acoustic and jazz. They would not be my first choice for rock music due to their bass response and dynamic limitations given their size. I have no experience with the Dynaudio C1. I suggest reading Jonathan Valin's review on the Raidho speakers as his findings are spot on. Disclaimer: no industry affiliation, just a happy Raidho owner. Good luck with your search.
As a Dyn C1 sig owner I have auditioned the Raidho D1 (not the C1.1). The D1 is a much better sounding speaker except they don't go as low as the Dyn C1's. The Raidho's are a slightly more revealing sound without being too forward. I was really amazed with the Raidho's but in the end I could own 3 pairs of the Dyn C1 sig's for the price of the D1's. That being said the Dyn C1 MKII/sig is quite an amazing speaker by itself.
If I could afford the D1's I would own them. The finish is much nicer too (my C1's are Mocha and the D1's were a burled walnut). Haven't heard the Magico's.
I have heard the Dyaudio C1, Raidho D-1 and Magico M5. Of these speakers I liked the Magico the least. The Raiido speakers are very very good. However I would still not buy them. Personally I think spending close to 20k on stand mount speakers is a bridge to far even if I had that kind of money which I will never ever will have. And I think the Raidho could use a subwoofer as well.
For the money I think the Totem Mani-2 sig is one of the best stand mount speakers that does not need a sub.
An other idea is active stand mound speakers like the Adam Tensor Delta and then add one or two active subwoofers.
Apdoc2004, for a purchase in this price range I urge you to travel to audition the speakers of interest rather than relying on discussion forum comments. And if it's important that you hear the speakers with some of your gear such as your amplifier, make arrangements with the dealer(s) you would visit to possibly ship your amp ahead of time for the demo, and while doing so, discuss your room. A good dealer will accommodate your request and show genuine interest.
A sincere thanks to all the members who have posted their impressions/inputs.
Thanks for your input on the direct comparison. Do you know if the Raidhos are able to perform their magic with somewhat reasonably priced speakers cables (Nordost Heimdall) or are we talking about Valhalla territory to get the performance upgrade?
Your input is very helpful. May I ask which speaker cables and amplifier are you using with your Raidho D1?
My room is 17.5 feet (length) X 14 feet (width) X 9 feet (height). I probably would do well with a medium sized floorstander but wonder if a monitor with good bass extension would work well too (it may offer an advantage in terms of less compelling need for extensive room treatments). What is your take on this?
To Essential audio
Your advice makes perfect sense but the Pacific Northwest is an audio wasteland particularly for some of the higher end brands (Magico, Raidho or even high end Dynaudio models). I have had good luck trying products on the advice of the audiogon community; that is the reason for soliciting opinions.
I do love the Lenehan ML-1s--they are great performers and do most things very well. I just have the itch to try the "State of the art" products just once in this hobby. Who knows--I might end up preferring the Lenehan speakers!
Any additional inputs/suggestions are welcome
I have heard nothing but good things about Evolution Acoustics speakers. My only problem with auditioning them is that without the benefit of a direct comparison with a Raidho or a Magico, I would always wonder if I am missing out on something :)
It is rather frustrating that inspite of all the affluence in and around Seattle, there is a dearth of dealers who can provide a convincing audition experience.
If you want coherent sound, dynamics and bass extension...dyns are speakers for you no doubt...its beyond sanity to cost tripple than dyns and have no sufficient bass(raidhos)...so that means you are very limited on music selection...which is very bad in my opinion...p.s. Kiwi...as a dyn owner i can only upgrade to another dyns not magico or raidho becuz i just like dyn presentation better...dyns-documentary movie....magico and raidho- special effects(wow factor) movie...regards...
I have the Dyn C1's driven by an Octave V110 tube integrated with original Nordost Frey. I heard the Raidho's at my dealer. He was running them off a little Naim Uniti with Nordost Tyr2 cables. Then we went to one of his customers that had his Raidho D3's for demo. They were being driven by a Burmester 911 with all Valhalla cables (he traded in his Dyn Sapphires). That system just ruined me. I looked every way I could to upgrade to the D1 for myself but just couldn't find the $$$$$. Anyhow back to your question. I would think the Heimdall's would be just fine but as with any of these systems the more you move up in the cable line the better it sounds. That being said you do have the point of diminishing returns just like the speakers in question. The Nordost Series2 is a very different cable. They retain the same characteristics of the original lineup but add a more liquid sound and do better in the lows. I had the Norse Series2 demo case for about 2 months and as much as I wanted to upgrade my speaker cables I ended up only upgrading my original Frey IC to the Tyr2. So yes if want to get the most out of the speaker the Valhalla would be the way to go but at 6X the price you will probably only get 15 - 20% better. Also in my opinion the Raidho D1 is about 20% better than my C1 signatures. Last my dealer told me that the 'D' series is like taking the speaker grills off when comparing to the C1.1's. And did you catch this??
I just auditioned the Raidho C1.1 for about an hour at a local dealer. It was paired with Simaudio Evolution integrated with a MAC supplying music through a Synergistic Research DAC. Cabling was all Synergistic Research and the room was heavily treated with an assortment of bass traps and resonators. The room was about 20x15. Enough of the silly details.
I would characterize the sound of the C1.1 as very neutral. I didn't detect any frequency bias. We played a variety of female vocals, strings, and sax. This speaker did a wonderful job of reproducing these instruments in a very realistic manner. It captured the nuance and texture very well. Needless to say the resolution was outstanding. However, the sound was not fatiguing at all. As expected, the bass with these monitors was not that good. I think my SF Auditors had better deeper bass. Overall, these are very good speakers if you listen to mainly music that has a slower pace. When pushed with fasted paced music with plenty of rapidly changing dynamics I felt like the C1.1 struggled a bit. That being said I only auditioned for 1 hour. I need to go back and spend more time listening.
I also wanted to comment about the stands. They do look very cool. But they are also not very stiff. In fact, I could easily make them flex with just the force of one finger. Now I doubt the stands will break but I thought it odd that they were not stiffer. The dealer said the flex was intentional to deal with vibrations. Regardless I didn't like it, especially since the speakers just sit atop of stands. My Auditors actually are screwed into the stands giving me some piece of mind, even if its just perceived.
Xti16 and Tboooe,
Thank you for posting your detailed impressions. The dimensions of the dealer's room is pretty close to my room. I am somewhat discouraged by the fact that Raidho's struggled with fast paced music (especially when compared to SF Auditors that I have owned and listened to extensively).
XTi16--How are the lows of the Raidho compared to your C1 Sigs?
Maybe I will have to take Jwm and some other posters' advice and make plans to travel and audition the Raidhos. The other option would be to save for a used pair of the Raidho D2 to show up on audiogon.
In reply to your below question,
I ran Raidho C-1 loudspeakers in my listening room which is a bit smaller than yours. My room is 16.4ft x 10ft. As you will read in my blog, room loaded the Raidho C-1 produced significant bass down to 36Hz. Incredible really for such a small loudspeaker. And to your second comment, I agree. Monitor speakers are much easier to manage in smaller rooms as they tend to excite room modes less. That said, room treatment should really be treated with the same importance as other audio related purchases - if not more. The problem is our listening environments mask reproduction. Silent spaces between music notes become filled in and spectral balances changes as our rooms emphasize or de-emphasize certain regions of the audio spectrum which in turn alters timbre (instrumental signatures) and distances us from reality. Room talk back, kills spatial cues and as a result we are frequently left with little sense of definable acoustic space.
The above said, as others have expressed, please listen carefully to all product under consideration. No one has your ears.
The D1 has a pretty sharp drop off at 50hz where the Dyn C1 (rated at 45hz) actually goes down to about 38hz. I have a Rel B3 that I crossover at 36hz to add what the Dyns can't do. There are times I will turn off my sub and with the exception of a handful of recordings I don't miss it. Also as great as the Esotar2 tweeter is the Raidho ribbon is slightly better.
I have to say I didn't think the Dyn C1 MKII/Sig could be beat but the Raidho did it (although it does comes with a real hefty price tag).
George did you compared c1 sigs on few same setups as raidhos so you can tell raidhos are 15 20% better...i dont doubt that raidhos are better speaker(it would be shame thet they dont be at that price)...i clearly remember guy who said he discovered full potential of his c1s when he connected them for fun at his monster tube amp(for his main system floorstanders)i believe you got nice sound with your octave allthough im a firm believer that dyns sound best on high current high wattage SS amplification...
Sabai...to add a sub on 200000eu speaker?...i would rather buy a c4 sigs...i gived up from thinking on subwoffers for 2 reasons....its hard to integrate properly sub...and second my friend who played at Vienna philharmonic told me 2 things...subwoofers dont give natural sound of contrabass as good floorstander(that means you must buy megabuck sub to hear natural fidelity) and (little off topic)second that vinyl gives more natural sound of string instruments and more natural sound from digital components overall...i have no reason to not believe guy who sleeps with his instruments and knows more about music than "audiophiles"...
Bmwmcab i had opportunity to hear vivid K-1 ,B-1 and giya G-3...all great sounding speakers, very transparent, high rez and non colored...(espetialy K-1 which is better than B-1...B-1 also gets hot when you push it loud...their dynamics is bit exaggerated...can sound harsh on metal-rock recordings...and bass seemed a bit less controled) could live with them but i would never buy them...i noticed that vivid have big (wow factor) as raidhos...but not my cup of tea(also these speakers are somewhat ugly "star trek" looking) if you can pass their look and listen to nice music not on very loud levels these speakers are hit!...regards...
I auditioned the Raidho C1 without a sub and there was nothing lacking that I detected.
But what's wrong with adding a sub if you need to or want to? I don't see what the problem is. I have the REL T3 -- an inexpensive and very fine sub. It is not hard to integrate at all. It receives the signal from the binding posts on the amp.
Frankly, I am not especially impressed by people who sleep with their instruments except if they are right. I was trained as a classical pianist at the Conservatory of Music. I would never think of sleeping with a piano. My wife would be extremely jealous. There is nothing lacking with the REL sub as far as my ears can hear. And they test pretty good.
By the way, cabling is very important with subs.
Sabai "sleeping" was only a metaphore, i diddnt said that anyone should be impressed with that...what i meant to say is that guy knows when something sounds just right becuz of spending his life listening and playing various instruments in Vienna philharmonic and i suppose that counts(btw he also heard alot of hi-end gear)...correct image, attack, decay and timbral accuracy of tones of instruments is what i meant...(i suppose you know that for right stereo picture you need two subs...and guess you are lucky to integrate your sub right with your speakers cuz alot of people that i know wasnt that lucky with that issue and did not get coherent sound as they expected) at the end only what matters is our own taste so just wanted to say no hard feelings about my opinion...i hope you enjoy your system...
George if you do that demo pls share your experience with us...regards...
Raindog031, I do not see the point(s) you try to make about subwoofers. First, while your friend who played at the Vienna philharmonic may know very well how classical music should sound, he may know very little about how rock (country, pot, metal, etc.) music should sound and/or how to properly integrating a subwoofer with a monitor or floor-stand speakers. If he believes what he has told you, than he has never heard a properly integrated subwoofer. Second, I can not imagine that somebody with common sense will pair the Raidho D1 with entry-level subwoofers. A very good sub, e.g. Velodyne DD+ series, cost only a fraction of the price of the D1s.
I also want to comment about Dynaudio C1 and Vivid speakers. I have extensively listen (in my room) to Dynaudio C1 (mk 1), Focal Utopia Micro Be, Avantgarde UNO and Vivid Giya G3. Compared to the UNOs, the Micro Be and Dynaudio C1 sounded like they were broken, i.e. slow, flat and with poor details (in a word drivers in a box). The situation does not change when going to the Dynaudio C1 (mk2), as when compared to mk1s, the mk2s are a bit smother a bit more detailed and play better at low volume levels. (It is certainly not my intention to bash the Dynaudio C1s. I have liked them very much when I had them, e.g. see my review on them here. I am only sharing what I have heard in my room.)
Regarding, the Vivids, unless played at low volume levels (i.e. 60-65 dBs), they will certainly not sound like drivers in a box. They are fast, dynamic, smooth, detailed and with great bass. Also, contrary to what Raindog031 wrote, their dynamic is not exaggerated and they play rock like there is no tomorrow (on par with my UNOs). IMO the Vivid speakers are worthy competition for the Raidho speakers. I can understand that their look might be a deal breaker for many. However, while having them in my room, their look grew on my big time. That is, after the second day, their friend-but-capable-and-funny-looking-allien face make me smile every time I have enter my music room.
You can read my thoughts on the Raidho D1 speakers here.
I'm not sure if this adds anything to the discussion, but here goes. At the recent NY Audio show, I thought the Raidho (both the stand mounted monitor and floor stander) were amazing. The floor stander in the Sound by Singer room was for me a clear best of show. Just to get my take on things I thought the Martin Logan room was a contender For best at show until dynamics came in and I could hear compression and almost a bit of distortion on anything dynamic.
I was so taken by the Raidho's that I came back to my system, TAD CR1's and playing the same cuts, tried to reproduce the same air and high frequency content of the Raidho's With Diamond's on the soles of her shoes cut I heard at the show.
I became a bit disillusioned when I couldn't reproduce the same air and realism in the voices and the back and forth section of the trumpets from that track.
Digressing a bit, I had heard the Magico q1 in a very good demo then played the same tracks on my CR1's. The Q1 reproduced some unknown to me Audiophile tracks with outstanding clarity and imaging, but when hearing a few requested standard recordings I knew quite well, the Q1's seemed to fall a bit flat. Those same cuts on my CR1's suddenly sounded like true audiophile grade material with a wealth of inner detail and liveness I hear in unamplified live music.
back to the Raidho's. Not being able to get that outstanding top end sound out of my head, I decided toodds on a pair of Electrostat supertweeters from Enigmacoustic's (permanently charged panels with no power supply). They added the top end air and resolution I was Hearing from the Raidho's ribbon driver. ( and became a dealer for the add-on super tweeter, so take everything I say with that in mind)
Like I said I'm not sure what this really adds to the discussion except that I truly love the Raidho's, and hearing Them made me want to augment my system to get those qualities.
Paul first of all tnx on your good response...integration of subs that i wrote has nothing to do with my friends opinion(he only said that timbre of acoustical instruments like double bass sounds more "real" on good floorstanders rather than low and mid priced subs) but with my observation on many friends who diddnt had succesfull integration...some of them gived up and some of them where forced to buy new subs...so i could guess that sub integration aint piece of cake...not that i never heard properly integrated sub...regarding the dynamics i wrote on B-1s i meant when listening one instrument on louder levels its fine but when 2 or 3 instruments start to play suddenly i feel like to turn volume down no matter the music playing...that could be due to the amp or source but i heard through speakers so im tellin what i heard(btw i believe you are satisfied with rock/metal presentation vivids B-1 have but if you like ill list you atleast 10 speakers in similiar or cheaper price range that i heard and in my opinion does it better than vivids)...but K-1s diddnt had that problems(K-1 heard first with dartzeel integrated which sounded very good but did not had bass control and energy like with goldmund integrated...needles to say he changed dartz for goldmund)...regarding avantgarde speakers...same friend who now has K-1(exeptional and natural sounding speakers) had avantgardes...in my(and his) opinion these speakers have bigger than real sound...midrange was fat...voices and images was bigger than real(with several high end integrateds)...afcourse i dont want to bash avantgardes (also after avantgardes vivids looked beautiful:)...maybe it was due sinergy...dont know...but he changed speakers in less than half year...not everyones cup of tea...i also read few times your c1s review...excellent review i must say... i will read your opinion on D1 right now...and to the OP i reccomend one more bookshelf to consider...Gryphon Mojo...after some of contradiction in our views about that speakers i wish that we all listened same speakers in same room(why do i think even then our opinions would differ:)...regards...
Just to follow up, I don't want to give the impression that the CR1's are totally playing catch up to the Raidho's in every aspect. Just the upper octaves. I actually think That augmenting the CR1's with a super tweeter and subs has given me everything I have ever looked for in a fairly compact speaker system. The Inner detail provided is probably the best I have heard. I would love to hear the Raidho's again in more detail. If anyone in the NYC area has them and wants to compare systems, MSG me. I'm just glad I found a solution to avoid having to sell my speakers and buy Raidho's. I guess one could say diamonds are now a guys's best friend too.
Interesting Emailists. I have also felt the Raidho C-1.1 (and by extension the Raidho D1) had a better upper end and certainly resolved more detail than the TAD CR1. Yes, the TAD could push more air than the Raidho in the bottom end - no real surprise there being a 3 way with significantly larger woofer.
Raindog031, sorry for the late reply. In my first post in this thread I have sounded a bit like I was picking on you. That was certainly not my intention. Since this post is not about Avantgarde speakers and/or rock and metal music I will answer you in more detail on my system page. Best wishes, Paul.
I have purchased the Vitus RI-100 integrated. Running now with the Esoteric 10's speaker. Esoteric 10's no longer available and were pulled off the market due to the cost of manufacturing. They were rated A in Absolute Sound for a short person of time then pulled off the market. If you buy a used pair for a start up system go for it. Remarkable for their cost. Reviews are all over the place. Sorry I am off target I my question.
Has anyone coupled the Raidho D-1 speakers with the Vitus Integrated? I am completely satisfied with the Vitus performance. Valin stated that the D-1's with the Velodyne 10" Sub constitutes a very high end system.
Any thoughts criticism.
I have since upgraded to the D1's and am driving them with an Octave V110 (110W tube integrated). As far as a sub I have a Rel B3 with a Nordost Baseline sub cable. My problem with the sub it slows down the overall speed of the mids and what bass the D1's do. I mentioned the Baseline cable because it is much faster sounding than the stock cable. Now I'm considering the D2's and ditching the sub. As far as the Vitus you should have no problem driving the D1's
Xti16, I am very familiar with RELs and have heard them in many different systems including electrostatics and ribbons. It should complement the D1s but you have to make sure it comes in below the actual (in your room) D1 -3dB frequency and that you don't hear it unless you switch it off, which means both low crossover and low volume. Also make sure you don't have a room mode that bumps up the frequency at crossover.
Vladimir I have my B3 crossed over at 43hz (46hz did give a ever so slight hump). It's not like I hear where the sub is - the problem is it slows down the bass and the mids. That wasn't the case when I had the Dyn C1 sig's. In fact it blended in so seamlessly after I got the Nordost baseline made to Rel spec (stock cable lacked attack and decay). The D1's are much more electrostatic sounding compared the the Dyn C1's. The G2 may be a better sub for the D1's IMO.