Don't Overlook the Room
This is a great thread.
Here's my take, as a guy who has been into hifi for 30 years.
In my earlier (college) days I sold hifi, so I could get the saleman's accomodation price (half off) on a lot of good gear. I'd buy at half off and sell it at 75% of list and keep on moving up until I was way beyond what most college students could afford. If TAS (The Absolute Sound) recommended it and it was made by Audio Research (which I still love) or if it was something generally regarded as world-class, I was lusting after it if not listening to it.
Then, like a lot of folks, a career, computer technology, a wife, and then a family took my attention.
Fast forward to about 2.5 years ago and I discovered eBay. As a computer guy I knew all about eBay the business model, but I didn't really understand what was out there. One day I found that all the old stuff I loved even before I discovered ARC SP3A-1s and D76As in the 1970s, like Marantz and Sony receivers, and Advent speakers, and Phase Linear 400s, and Dynaco PAT-5s, etc, etc. was all out there just waiting for a bid. The next thing you know, I'm pretty much where I left off in the 1970s; all good stuff, but it's still not quite providing the sound I'm shooting for. So what the heck, back in those days I had to work the wheel and deal of the salesman's special to get the gear I wanted. Now, if I don't mind eroding the nest egg, I can afford a little more. And besides, technology has improved, not by as much as you would expect over 30 years, and not by anything resembling the continuous huge compounding effect of computing's Moore's law, but it has improved at least for selective gear here and there.
So, I start upgrading, to the latest and greatest in amps, preamps, cartridges, and finally speakers. Next thing you know, I've got way more invested in gear than any thing you could imagine in 1970s dollars, and probably more than most people would imagine in 2005 dollars. I have a hifi friend who says he never tells his non-hifi friends how much he has invested in his system because they would think he is just plain nuts. And this isn't just a phenomenon for affluent hifi-ers, it seems to be the case for all sorts of hifi-ers. I think there are plenty of us guys who don't have much of a retiremnent plan but who have or had a decent system.
Well, what do you get for all this? In addition to spending some $, you get a fairly staggering investment of time. Getting the last 20% of sound not only requires an 80% or better increase in financial investment, it takes a lot of time and effort. It also takes up some space. It's pretty hard to make all the fine tunes without dedicating a room to hifi.
And then it hits you. You just can't get from here to there in most rooms. You've thought for 30 years that you just intuitively known where to place your speakers, but then you trip across the Cardas formula on the Web. You place your speakers in the recommended locations and as good as your side to side and front to back imaging was, it get's better. In fact, it kind of snaps into a whole new level of focus. So, you start studying room dimensions and you find out that the ideal room is a subject of lots of discussion if not debate. It turns out that there are is probably a minimum size and very likely an optimum ratio of room width, length, and ceiling height. Further, the ideal room is not a rectangle - it's shaped more like a quasi pizza pie, or more likely a concert hall with walls that run on a diagonal and a ceiling that is sloped. And by the way, bass traps, and a half dozen other acoustic treatments are a good idea. And don't forget the AC system with the dedicated 20 amp (or better) circuits. And even if you are a do-it-yourselfer, and you are willing to spend the time and money on specturm analyzers, microphones, software programs, and other tools, you probably don't have a degree in acoustical engineering so you will probably have to hire one, along with a contractor or two. In fact, what you discover is that even though your gear would make almost anyone on Agon or Aasylum envious, it's probably only performing at a fraction of it's potential unless you get the room right - which you might get by happenstance if you are win-the-lottery lucky, but otherwise you won't get it unless you spend about as much on the room as you spend on the gear.
So, yes, there is a point of diminishing returns.
I'd say there are two inflection points on the curve of investment and sonic return. One is somewhere around a Thorens turntable, a good size Marantz reciever, and a pair of Large Advents. Another inflection point is somehwere around a Linn SP-12, an Audio Research SP3A1 and a D-70MkII and a pair of Dahlquist DQ-10s or Yamaha NS-1000s. (If you have other gear that you prefer, fine, but the total cost will probably come about the same as one of those two systems.) After that you are headed for a $10k system going on a $hundred k system.
After the first two inflection points, you have hit the law of diminishing returns if you don't (by luck or by design) get your gear set up in a great room. Without the room being right, you are going to find that a dollar more invested in the room won't give you more than a few cents of improved sonics back in return.
I'm not saying the journey isn't worth taking; it's a great hobby, but don't overlook the cost or sonic importance of the room. If you're prepared to make a great room and spend the money and time to get it all dialed-in, go for it - the final result will be something you will enjoy in terms of music and project satisfaction. If you aren't ready to get the room fixed, think twice about going much past the first, second, or certainly the third inflection point because the law of diminishing returns will hit you noticeably harder at each inflection point.
This is a great thread.
Here's my take, as a guy who has been into hifi for 30 years.
In my earlier (college) days I sold hifi, so I could get the saleman's accomodation price (half off) on a lot of good gear. I'd buy at half off and sell it at 75% of list and keep on moving up until I was way beyond what most college students could afford. If TAS (The Absolute Sound) recommended it and it was made by Audio Research (which I still love) or if it was something generally regarded as world-class, I was lusting after it if not listening to it.
Then, like a lot of folks, a career, computer technology, a wife, and then a family took my attention.
Fast forward to about 2.5 years ago and I discovered eBay. As a computer guy I knew all about eBay the business model, but I didn't really understand what was out there. One day I found that all the old stuff I loved even before I discovered ARC SP3A-1s and D76As in the 1970s, like Marantz and Sony receivers, and Advent speakers, and Phase Linear 400s, and Dynaco PAT-5s, etc, etc. was all out there just waiting for a bid. The next thing you know, I'm pretty much where I left off in the 1970s; all good stuff, but it's still not quite providing the sound I'm shooting for. So what the heck, back in those days I had to work the wheel and deal of the salesman's special to get the gear I wanted. Now, if I don't mind eroding the nest egg, I can afford a little more. And besides, technology has improved, not by as much as you would expect over 30 years, and not by anything resembling the continuous huge compounding effect of computing's Moore's law, but it has improved at least for selective gear here and there.
So, I start upgrading, to the latest and greatest in amps, preamps, cartridges, and finally speakers. Next thing you know, I've got way more invested in gear than any thing you could imagine in 1970s dollars, and probably more than most people would imagine in 2005 dollars. I have a hifi friend who says he never tells his non-hifi friends how much he has invested in his system because they would think he is just plain nuts. And this isn't just a phenomenon for affluent hifi-ers, it seems to be the case for all sorts of hifi-ers. I think there are plenty of us guys who don't have much of a retiremnent plan but who have or had a decent system.
Well, what do you get for all this? In addition to spending some $, you get a fairly staggering investment of time. Getting the last 20% of sound not only requires an 80% or better increase in financial investment, it takes a lot of time and effort. It also takes up some space. It's pretty hard to make all the fine tunes without dedicating a room to hifi.
And then it hits you. You just can't get from here to there in most rooms. You've thought for 30 years that you just intuitively known where to place your speakers, but then you trip across the Cardas formula on the Web. You place your speakers in the recommended locations and as good as your side to side and front to back imaging was, it get's better. In fact, it kind of snaps into a whole new level of focus. So, you start studying room dimensions and you find out that the ideal room is a subject of lots of discussion if not debate. It turns out that there are is probably a minimum size and very likely an optimum ratio of room width, length, and ceiling height. Further, the ideal room is not a rectangle - it's shaped more like a quasi pizza pie, or more likely a concert hall with walls that run on a diagonal and a ceiling that is sloped. And by the way, bass traps, and a half dozen other acoustic treatments are a good idea. And don't forget the AC system with the dedicated 20 amp (or better) circuits. And even if you are a do-it-yourselfer, and you are willing to spend the time and money on specturm analyzers, microphones, software programs, and other tools, you probably don't have a degree in acoustical engineering so you will probably have to hire one, along with a contractor or two. In fact, what you discover is that even though your gear would make almost anyone on Agon or Aasylum envious, it's probably only performing at a fraction of it's potential unless you get the room right - which you might get by happenstance if you are win-the-lottery lucky, but otherwise you won't get it unless you spend about as much on the room as you spend on the gear.
So, yes, there is a point of diminishing returns.
I'd say there are two inflection points on the curve of investment and sonic return. One is somewhere around a Thorens turntable, a good size Marantz reciever, and a pair of Large Advents. Another inflection point is somehwere around a Linn SP-12, an Audio Research SP3A1 and a D-70MkII and a pair of Dahlquist DQ-10s or Yamaha NS-1000s. (If you have other gear that you prefer, fine, but the total cost will probably come about the same as one of those two systems.) After that you are headed for a $10k system going on a $hundred k system.
After the first two inflection points, you have hit the law of diminishing returns if you don't (by luck or by design) get your gear set up in a great room. Without the room being right, you are going to find that a dollar more invested in the room won't give you more than a few cents of improved sonics back in return.
I'm not saying the journey isn't worth taking; it's a great hobby, but don't overlook the cost or sonic importance of the room. If you're prepared to make a great room and spend the money and time to get it all dialed-in, go for it - the final result will be something you will enjoy in terms of music and project satisfaction. If you aren't ready to get the room fixed, think twice about going much past the first, second, or certainly the third inflection point because the law of diminishing returns will hit you noticeably harder at each inflection point.