I don't know about "heat pipes", but I DO know it sure would be helpful if you would start using paragraph breaks in your writing. As it is now, it is virtually un-readable...
Heat pipes are one of several technologies that may be used in computers to cool two specific integrated circuit chips, the CPU chip and the "Northbridge" chip (or equivalent). Those devices consume enormous amounts of power relative to their small size, and would be quickly destroyed without adequate cooling. Also, marginal cooling would limit the speed at which they can operate reliably.
The heat pipes, or other cooling means, are in intimate contact with the two devices, under pressure, and with a thermally conductive paste in between, to fill in microscopic voids that would degrade heat transfer.
The applicability of any of that to a device placed on top of an audio component would seem to be, um, questionable.
Hi, Thanks to all the 82 and counting who have read this unreadable thread. Let's not let the imperfect stop us from focusing on the substance of my post. That these Heat Pipes work in a way that is unexpected and usual. Please do a Bing or Google search. There are books on Amazon about Heat Pipes and there use. To 4est... I am just giving you my findings. The reasons for them working so well as passive heat transfer units is another story. I'm learning as I go. To Rlwainwright: Thank you for your critic of my post. I just hope most members will slog-Thu and get the point. Your thoughts on the subject matter are always welcomed.
To Almarg: Nice spacing on your post. The conductive paste that you mentioned was on all the Heat Pipes that I have. It made no difference in sound in my system when I removed the paste with Denatured Alcohol. Another strange finding is that the Heat Pipes on Power amps sound better with the fins down on top of the transformer. But with all 4 digital players it works best with the base on top of the unit (conductive paste removed).
A class'a' amp which is designed with heatpipes in mind from the blank sheet of paper phase will be a much nicer animal.
Moving the heat into the room from the gear and doing so more efficiently and without noise is a good thing.
I'm working on a design of a sealed enclosure with heat transfer to help keep equipment cooler and dust free.
No design details.
I have several interesting features in mind which I've not seen implemented anywhere at any price. I will be using allthread at the corners. NO MDF is planned and the heatpipes will need more research. As a clue to what will be made before the heatpipes....look up 'noctua'
And, Elizabeth, just like any real and functional piece of furniture, it won't be 'cheap' or cheapable.
I'm trying to build a skillset now, taking woodshop classes at the local JC. This place is Very Well equipped and even has it's own lumber mill. The shops include lathes, many table saws (cabinet saws) routers w/tables, a couple shapers, and jointer / planers, some of which are monsters off a battle ship and will take wood 8 inches thick and 31 inches wide. The classrooms and shop total over 30,000 sq feet.
I have the best instructors, but am limited for the next year or so until I can get to where I can build what and how I want.
Working on Google Sketchup, too, so I can draw what I want to make.
Do you mind if I PM you with some other details? I assure you that you will be surprised, but no telling anyone! I have not seen anything available like what I intend.
No thanks. i just wondered what is going on here. Sort of a lets all cheer the new idea? I would guess.
My stuff is no problem on heat as is. Beyond understanding what the cheering is about, I am not too interested.
I would think folks who keep the system in a built in cabinet might be more interested.
Heat pipe are definitely not new. We employed heat pipes to cool high speed digital instrumentation back in the mid 1980s and we borrowed the technology from another application.
A heat pipe is a closed loop method of providing a *very* efficient transfer of heat. In our case a heat pipe was used to transfered heat generated away from pin electronics into a chill water system.
Physical contact is essential for optimum thermal transfer which means that a conductive paste and /or a mechanical connection is required to take advantage of heat pipe efficiency.
Having said all that, it doen't appear you are using the heat pipe for its thermal conductivity. Rather it appears that you are using it as some kind of Shakti hallograph soundfield optimizer.
What am I missing?
Hi, Elizabeth. Your idea of people with there system in a built in cabinet makes alot of since. But all my gear is on open design racks (2). Both amp sit on (2) open amp stands. My all solid state gear get only moderately warm on the amps when cranked up. My point is you don't have to have Hot or Moderately Hot or very warm gear for the Heat Pipes to work. My dead cold preamp sounds better with the Heat Pipe on top of the power supply. Heat Pipes by design are super efficient at transferring heat. That includes even small amounts of heat off the surface of your equipment. Even gear that has heat-sinks and gear that does not. My purpose at posting my findings are to inform other about something out there that is already being used one way. But could be used another way to make your gear sound better. This could be put to the test by others. So Elizabeth: If there is to be any cheering going on. Let it be by those who are very doubtful of the Heat Pipes effectiveness, but try it anyway. If they reap the positive benefits of something they did not think would work , that would be worth cheering. I'm sure you would agree.
Sorry, seems to be an answer for which there is no question.
For gear that is running class "A" and the user wants to get the heat out of the environment, or in a cabinet, maybe, but with NOTHING that shows it actually extends equipment life by a noticable proven margin, (And that is a cost effective thing at that, anyway) nor any audible benefit, i cannot see a reason to even bother with it. I do not want to rain on your parade, but just because something can be made, doesn't mean it is going to be a useful idea folks will pay for.
Hi, Greg. I am of the belief that you don't have to have "optimum thermal transfer" for the passive Heat Pipes to work on top of audio gear. But on my power amps they actually work better with the base end with the conductive paste on top, with the fins touching the amp chassis. I'm no expert hear but my thought on this was that the Heat Pipes were working along with the heat-sinks to absorb the stray heat coming from the amps top chassis. Buy transferring the heat coming to the top of the amps. It aided in an already existing heat transfer system. BTW I had the Heat Pipes on my gear a week before I got the wild idea of trying them as some sort of sound optimizer. So if you made me chose the way the Heat Pipes work best. I would smile and say BOTH.
I have made it a point not to focus on the sound improvement brought on buy using the Heat Pipes in my system. I wanted reasonable and unreasonable member to consider the concept of excessive heat, no matter how small being removed from your system. And having the over all sound improve because of the heat removal. But I understand even reasonable people can disagree on a concept. The real prove is in the putting it to the test. So I will ship 4 of the Heat Pipes that I use in my system to any member hear on Audiogon with 3 years as a member and no negatives or neutral feed backs. This is for the lower 48 states only. The shipping is FREE. I do have 3 conditions. First, you must use the Heat Pipes. Second, you then must post you finding hear, good, bad, or indifferent. Lastly is if you like what the Heat Pipes do in your system you pay to ship them back to me. If they do not work for you I will pay to have them shipped back to me hear in Georgia no questions asked. I like Audiogon a lot because even with it's sync, wise guys and gals, know it all types and just down right rude and smart ... members. There is an overwhelming culture of class that comes through when you share your finding with other members. Even when they don't agree or doubt your findings. I can't tell you how many time I have read disagreement with members hear and busted out laughing at the back and forth. And the same two are cutting it up together on another post. I hope this sight never loses it class. I don't mind sharing my findings hear and bouncing them off other members for there thoughts.
There is an effect upon the sound whenever anything capable of resonating to "absorb" or "radiate" sound waves is placed in contact with a component or simply placed within the room's sound field.
This is the basis for a multitude of tweaks which appear for sale on Audiogon and in advertisements. Any audible changes due to positioning your heat pipes are not simply the result of temperature reduction.
Otherwise, you may have stumbled on a "benefit" of having to keep room temperature low when home heating costs rise :>)
Good Lord... another fundamental law of science that is altered when audio equipment is involved. Heat transfer depends on basically three things -- temperature differential, surface area and resistance (thermal conductivity). These hp's affect the surface area by adding a series conductor (like adding a window to a wall) to the equipment case. Fine. But turning down the thermostat 5 degrees or so will have a bigger impact on the overall heat transfer.
Does turning the thermostat down in your listening room have the same magical effect? No? Then neither will the hp's.
Also, putting these things in the listening room will not transfer heat. They will simply stabilize to the temperature of the room. (Both plastic and copper are the same temperature in the same room. The copper feels colder because it transfers heat faster from your fingertips.)
If you want to test this theory that heat transfer from hp's over audio transformers make a difference, place a thermocouple inside the chassis about a quarter of an inch above the xfmr (the thermal boundary layer). Note the temperature over an hour in a constant temperature room. Then place these hp's as directed. If there is a decrease in the ambient air temp over the xfmr, then maybe I'll go to the next step.
Hi, Metralla. Let me just state what I have never owned. A digital camera, iPhone, ipad, Blackberry, mp3, X-BOX, WEE, Big screen TV, Home Theater system, sub woofer, never downloaded music off the Internet. I use prepaid phone cards only, never had a pay pal account or a Monthly cellphone bill. Never thought of joining My space, Face book, Twitter. I have never text ed a person. Don't like Lawyers, Bankers, and don't trust most Doctors. Run from people who love God to much or say there is no God. Out side of all that I'm just your average guy. And oh Ya' I'm not that great at spacing my post here on Audiogon (so I've been told). Now you say you want pictures. Google it, or reread this post again.
Hi, Gs5556. Just when I was trying to get out ,you pulled me back in. Now because there is not audible effect when I turn my thermostat up or down that means that the Heat Pipes I have on my equipment does not work? Does a Thermostat work just like a Heat Pipe. I'm sure your answer is no. So why use two dissimilar items to show me how the one that I have doesn't work. Now I think I have not given the Heat Pipes there just do. There is technology involved in the design of the Heat Pipes that I have with the copper coils, that work with the "fundamental laws of science" as you stated. These Heat Pipes are not just a bar of copper or aluminum, which I have both and they do nothing close to what the Heat Pipes do. And yes the solid copper bars I have do feel cold, but they add nothing to my sound. The Heat Pipes do.
03-27-11: Jejaudio writes:
Let me just state what I have never owned. A digital camera, iPhone, ipad, Blackberry, mp3, X-BOX, WEE, Big screen TV, Home Theater system, sub woofer, never downloaded music off the Internet .... never had a pay pal account or a Monthly cellphone bill. Never thought of joining My space, Face book, Twitter. I have never text ed a person. Don't like Lawyers, Bankers, and don't trust most Doctors. Run from people who love God to much or say there is no God.I like him already.
Now you say you want pictures. Google it, or reread this post againbut I just bristle when I'm told to reread a post.
Pictures, my man.
Ha' Spring is in the air on Audiogon I see. The birds chirping, Flowers and trees blooming, bees buzzing. And let's not forget the annoying mosquitoes are in there larva stage ready to come out and try to mess up your good time. With nothing good on there mind. Just all about pestering all the time. No you can't shoo them away because they think your space is there space to. So the wise thing to do is to have the proper covering, nets and of course mosquito repellent. So you can avoid be distracted be this persistent nuisance. Just because it's like to rudely impose it self on whatever you are doing does not mean you have to give it the attention it craves,
You are telling us that removing heat = better sound. I am telling you that lowering the thermostat removes heat faster, increasing the surface area of the equipment case removes heat faster and increasing the conductivity of the equipment case removes heat faster. The hp's supposedly remove heat faster. How is this different from those other modes of heat transfer?
What about equipment with vent holes? Fundamental heat transfer will tell you convection removes heat faster than conduction (the basis of hp's).
Let's continue with fundamental heat transfer. As heat is removed from a source into the surroundings (the room), the surrounding air temperature increases. As the temperature of the room increases, the rate of heat transfer from the equipment decreases (the temperature differential is less). No matter how these hp's are designed, they must stop working when the temperature of the room equals the temperature of the equipment. The first law of thermodynamics isn't excused from audio equipment. Conversely, if the temperature of the room lowers, the rate of heat transfer increases. If you use a computer in a refrigerated room you do not need heat sinks around the processor.
I never ever question anybody's perception of what they hear no matter how improbable the tweak or the technology. I make no exception with the hp's. If they work, then there must be something else (increased resonance dampening due to weight on the chassis comes to mind). But please do not tell us that the fundamental laws of physics are suspended.
Okay all you Heat Pipe doubters, listen to this true story and become believers:
It was a really hot day when I wanted to run 4 or 5 miles. So, as any reasonable and intelligent Audiogon member would obviously do, I attached one of these Heat Pipes to my head with a boat load of conductive paste and a chin strap to hold it in place.
I'm not sure it cooled me down much but, and this is the amazing part, I forgot I had it on when I jumped in the shower and began singing "Roxanne" at full volume like I always do in the shower. You would not beleive how good I sounded, like I had upgraded my vocal chords. Anyone hearing it would have thought Sting was in the shower with me singing. I'm reasonably sure he wasn't in the shower with me. However, I would probably have to refuse testifying to this if I was under oath. Well, there you have it naysayers. Now you smarty-pants aren't so sure, right? I'm ordering the waterproof model.
I had a tiny vial of that secret fuel. It improved my system just being in my purse sitting in the trunk of my car, parked a block away. The 'Men in Black" snatched my purse before i could have the formula analyzed and become rich. I think the formula was from area 51.
Better blacks, fantastic soundstage, warm tubelike midrange too. Pity the Men in Black don't seem to be the Audiophile type.
cooler equipment has better reliability.
Some transistors sound better warmer. Most notorious was the driver transistor for the now ancient Phase Linear 400 which simply didn't sound right until warmed.
Your physics, however, about heat transfer is not quite correct. Heat sinks are rated in degrees c per watt. This means that the amount of heat dissipated is constant and that as the outside air warms, the device, too, warms to maintain the difference.
Active cooling CAN cool the whole thing off, but the temperature difference will remain the same.
Heatpipes should obey the same rules.....the thermal resistance will set a limit on how much heat...and therefore the temp difference, any setup can sustain.
I hope this helps::
I never ever question anybody's perception of what they hear no matter how improbable the tweak or the technology. I make no exception with the hp's. If they work, then there must be something else (increased resonance dampening due to weight on the chassis comes to mind). But please do not tell us that the fundamental laws of physics are suspended.Complete agreement here. Let me add though, perception is the key word. My system can sound wonderful on any given day and then sound just so-so the next even though there were no changes made.
I have experienced the placebo effect when tweaking my system. Anybody else experience this?
Jejaudio, Do not confuse opening the thread with actually reading your posts. I abandoned your first post about 1/4 of the way through it. Then I skimmed some posts and still have no idea what you are talking about. But I have come to the conclusion I don't care.
I leave you and this thread with two thoughts:
"If you can't convince them-confuse them."
"Paragraph breaks--the pause that refreshes".
Heat sinks are rated in degrees c per watt. This means that the amount of heat dissipated is constant and that as the outside air warms, the device, too, warms to maintain the difference.
Not correct. The term degrees C per watt is the thermal resistance a heat sink requires at a given device temperature. A component will generate heat based on its intrinsic thermal conductivity and voltage/current -- which determines its operating temperature. The heat sink design needs to know this value, along with the power dissipated and the expected ambient air temperature. Then the minimum degrees C per watt can be determined for the heat sink required to maintain that temperature as a maximum. As the ambient air temp increases, the device doesn't warm -- it dissipates less heat but still enough to keep the device being cooled at or below its maximum temperature. If the ambient temperature expected is very high, then that requires a different heat sink with a lower C per watt. If the ambient is expected to be very low, then a heat sink with a higher resistance can be specified (cheaper and smaller).
The fins of a heat sink increase the surface area to transfer more heat by conduction. They also are in the path of moving ambient air. The movement of air through the fins removes more heat by convection. The heat sink designer can now factor the shape of the sink as well as the thermal conductivity. But they still transfer heat based on ambient air conditions -- the lower the ambient, the faster the removal of heat. This is the whole idea that the hp people are selling us, minus the ambient air temperature part. It is nothing more than razzle-dazzle heat sink engineering applied to the equipment chassis. My point is it doesn't work that way.
"The heat sink designer can now factor the shape of the sink as well as the thermal conductivity."
Shape is already included in thermal resistance - length isn't. Extrusions are often specified in degC/W/inch.
The purpose of heat pipes is to remove heat (using liquid inside) from the location where large heatsink won't fit or operate properly (no air flow). Heat pipe connects such hot spot to external heatsink (with some temp. gradient).
Making electronics colder is not necessarily a good thing.
Main problem is to make signal path including output transistors as fast as possible to avoid delays hence TIM.
Heat makes bipolar transistors faster - a good thing (MOS gets slower with temperature - benefits from cooling). It has not much of the effect on reliability as long as junction temp is kept within reason. The only negative effect of heat is life of electrolytic caps shorten by half for each 10 degC increase.
GS has it correct. The prime driver of heat is temperature difference. No delta T, no heat loss nor gain, regardless of the shape, size or material of the conductors.
The heat pipes are just a better heat transfer medium, but they won't work if there is no temperature difference, i.e. if the temperature at the 'rejection' end isn't lower than at the 'origin', then no heat transfer.
Salut, Bob P.
PS Kijanki's statements point to, however, a reason why one might hear an effect using the heat pipes, but cooling the room would also have the same affect.
"To Almarg: Nice spacing on your post. The conductive paste that you mentioned was on all the Heat Pipes that I have. It made no difference in sound in my system when I removed the paste with Denatured Alcohol. Another strange finding is that the Heat Pipes on Power amps sound better with the fins down on top of the transformer. But with all 4 digital players it works best with the base on top of the unit (conductive paste removed)."
To Inpep, Kijanki, Gs5556 - All good debate and theory and all, but this tells me it has nothing to do with efficient heat transfer. What it does have to do with I have no clue, but it ain't efficient heat transfer.
Paste suppose to improve thermal contact since surface is never perfectly smooth (to lower case to heatsink thermal resistance).
Jejaudio said: "It's keeping everything in your computer cool inside so it can work as efficiently as possible."
It might slightly improve efficiency of computer that is mostly cmos (cooler MOS = faster = lower losses on switching) but does nothing to efficiency of typical SS amp (unless we're talking class D).
Sebrof - I don't have a clue what it does have to do with either. This is perfect example of the "Gardener's Syndrome" that makes people constantly trim, improve etc.
Can one of you thermal experts hazard a guess that would provide some quantitative perspective on all of this?
As far as I can tell, given that he hasn't yet posted any links or photos, the OP appears to be referring to a heat-pipe based heat sink assembly that would be used on a computer cpu chip, minus the fan that would normally be attached to it in a computer application. Those things have a contact area that is in the rough vicinity of 2 square inches (around 1.4 inches on each side). Here is an example of a very good one (note that there are four photos that can be scrolled through), having more heat pipes and undoubtedly more radiating surface area than the ones the OP described. What would be your rough ballpark guess as to the reduction in semiconductor case or junction temperatures that might result from loosely placing one of these things on top of a stereo component, either an amp or a low powered component?
1 degree? 0.01 degrees? 0.00001 degrees? My guess, not having much background in thermal design, is that among those three numbers the answer would be closest to the latter.