See my review of the Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk.2 monoblock amplifier just posted on issue No. 43 of Positive Feedback Online. Yes, IMO, this is an example of an excellent and very musical high power amplifier at a Real World price, regardless of underlying technology.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/bel_canto_ref1000.htm |
Geph0007 asked:
"Maybe I missed something. Are you ( Dcstp) saying the Bel Canto with the Tripath module is not digital???? "
I'm saying that Ref 500 and 1000 are NOT digital. Most class D is not.
PS Audio are screwing aroudn with putting a DAC inside a chassis with a Class D amp. The DAC, of course, would be digital, but the amplifier is not.
Tripath was not Class D. I've seen it describe as Class-T, really. I think of it as a hybrid system that may combine power switching with some sort of digital/analog conversion, but I, admittedly, never fully understood what it was doing in the digital mode. There's probably a good reason that they abandoned Tripath.
Dave |
The "D" in class D does not stand for digital. It's simply a sequencing convenience. . . A, B, [C], D. . . do not ask me where class C devices are, I have no idea. Recent Bel Canto amps have abandoned Tripath modules. . . . Bel Canto is now using ICEpower modules: ASP500 in the Ref 500 and ASP 1000 in the Ref 1000 Mk.2. Like with any other basic module/tube, the sound of a class D amp depends as much on what the designer is capable of harnessing from the strengths of underlying devices, as much as on the raw 'sound' of the device itself. . . . which by the way, -- for all it matters -- remains analog. |
Maybe I missed something. Are you ( Dcstp) saying the Bel Canto with the Tripath module is not digital???? Keith |
Hi Mapman,
Not exactly because in the past that 8 month spell with the "D" class amps I was actually using a tube pre, ARC REF3, Supratec Sav., VTL 7.5 and one of the amps where the Jeff Rowland 501's which I believe is the amp section of the 500 integrate.
The class "D" is very interesting and there are a handful that I have not heard and would like to do so but I will say to date the Jeff Rowland 312 is my fav. for this type of amplification.
Regarding amps I seem to actually prefer tube, just have not found that magical match for my current MBL's. Not that I have really heard allot either because I really had purchased the Cat JL3 thinking that would be it but unfortunately it wasn't do to other issues but the Joule is on my radar and will be listening to the exact system Dob heard and raved about. |
Hi Mapman,
I have heard my same amps used with a tube preamp, and the sound was just what many may want. It was very smooth, clean, and musical.
I prefer no tubes in the preamp, as long as that preamp is the H2O Fire. A 6moons review is in the future. This is an abnormally squeaky clean solid state preamp.
This is not to say my system doesn't benefit from tubes. I have mine in my non sampling DAC. The beauty of tubes and NOS carry through unsullied by the preamp. The advantage to my liking is the sound is more lively and detailed with the Fire aboard rather than a tube amp. |
Dev,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that each case that appealed to you involved tube amplification. Also, you liked the Rowland Class D amp with the ARC tube pre.
I suspect that the "toe tapping" sound you like is more a result of the tubes, even if just in the pre, more so than as a result of using a Class D power amp.
Maybe a tube pre-amp and Class D power amp is the way to go, particularly with certain speakers that present more difficult loads to drive where Class D's that double down to 4 and even 2 ohms hold a distinct advantage over tubes for maintaining tonal balance with the low end.
I recently added the ARC sp-16 tube pre to my system running a well regarded SS amp needed to drive my difficult large Ohm Walsh 5 speaks and the toe tapping factor increased significantly.
I would consider a good Class D in my current setup in a heartbeat if I felt I really needed more power than the 120w/ch Musical Fidelity A3CR amp I currently use.
|
Very interesting information with all the different thoughts and out comes.
Aprox. 2 years ago I bought and demoed numerous class "D" amps and/or which some refer to as switching amps.
What I found interesting when I read what Geph0007 had to say in general, putting aside the gear that was made reference to because that totally differs from what I listened to including owning.
What did come across was these specific amps ("D") are in one category referring to saying it's so clean, great bass, it's so smooth, etc. Then there is the other category which is "emotional where you want to jump up and start playing air guitar or you get choked up if the mood is right on certain songs."
I have to say from my experience I agree and that is what I was missing when I did my demoing but as we all know lots had happened since then (improvements)and I always keep an open mind so that is why I still have interest.
I have this year done some more evaluations comparing and here are a couple situations and what my thoughts were, these are my thoughts only!
System;
Jeff Rowland Continuum 500 integrated amplifier paired up with Neeper speakers, JM-LAB Alto Utopia Be speakers and Sonus Faber Amati Anniversario speakers. Cables used were Transparent and source AR REF7 cd red book, Esoteric with clock and DCS stac. Material all cd
I listened changing only the speakers and sources, same day and all gear well broken-in.
The JRDG was in the rack, on the floor was a Audio Research REF110 and HD220 both stereo pces and there was a REF3 pre also in the rack.
I spent some time listening to the different pcs. in different configurations with the JRDG first. I actually went with the intentions of buying the JRDG 500, the Rowland sounded really nice while I was evaluating and mentally going through the Audiophile check list, in my mind it was truly doing a spectacular job but that's it.
I played the same pces of music that I'm very familiar repeditively. I then switched over to the ARC amps and I discovered immediately what I was missing and it was exactly what Geph0007 said; which is the emotional aspect where you want to jump up and start playing air guitar or you get choked up if the mood is right on certain songs.
I just actually forgot all about the electronics and melted away being drawn into the music emotionally. It really reminds me of two years ago and how I felt also when I demoed "D" class amps for aprox. 8 months and then installed PASS X600.5 mono blocks.
So my latest exspearince, JRDG 312 stereo amp paired up with a ARC REF3 pre., Transparent cables and same sources again but with the new JM-LAB Scala speakers. First time I ever heard these speakers and the 312. Very nice experience indeed and much different than my past with the JRDG 500 and all "D" class. This set-up offered that emotion toe tapping experience that is very important to me that was lacking so far with all other "D" class amps that I have heard.
Still more auditioning to come as I now need to compare, ARC HD220 and REF 110 and Boulder with same speakers and electronics, should be interesting.
|
Coffeey, as you well know, the Bel Canto EVo2, Gen 2 in question is approx 3 or 4 generations old. . . it does not even faintly represent what best of breed class D amps can deliver today. Have you considered getting a fresher perspective than the cherished solace of old bad memories? |
Class D amps, ones that are superbly designed, can approach reality given the right system gear. I can show you, Coffeey, how I can make my, "Amps," sound edgy, fuzzy, bright, and/or distorted just by inserting a regular CD player, off the shelf wires at any price, stock power cord, or a noisy and badly matched preamp. |
geph0007 good write up,it is hard to pin down,whats not hard to pin down is that the brain and ears will surely tell you something is wrong,and they cant be fooled. |
Geph0007,
I have a NAD 7020 I use as a spare in my systems when needed.
Its a very gutsy little beast indeed, and it has served well in a reserve role when called on over the years, but the sound is quite rough around the edges compared to most newer and even a number of older amps that I have had opportunity to compare it to over the years. |
Geph0007, Bel Canto is NOT "digital". You're welcome to prefer your NAD, but it's not because of any digital conversion happening in the Bel Canto. Salesmen use such terms to sell tubes and other products that they have on hand.
Dave |
Not at all Mrtennis - I am thrilled with the Gilmore sound. It may be that my source, preamp, cables and room just sound better with the Gilmore amp, or it may be that my hearing (and my wife's as well) just favor the Gilmore sound. I find them to sound very detailed yet smooth at the same time. YMMV. |
I thought I should add my 2 cents since I have just been through this experience. Let me be clear-this is ONLY my perspective, my experience, and what I have heard for myself and from others. I also should mention I see listening to music can be divided into two sets of perceptions. ONe is the OOH AHH category-it's so clean, great bass, it's so smooth, etc. Then the other category is the emotional category where you want to jump up and start playing air guitar or you get choked up if the mood is right on certain songs. I have found the two categories sometimes do not necessarily match. My goal is the second category. I want to be emotionally touched by the music. Having said that, here is what I have found.
Since 1980 I have owned HK, Adcom, NAD, Rotel, Plinius, and Bel Canto. I recently owned a Bel Canto EVo2, Gen 2 ingegrated amp for approximately three years. I recently sold it for financial reasons but thought it was a wonderful piece of gear, well built, nice ergonomics, etc. From a sonic standpoint it was almost perfect. Clear, good bass, holographic, fast, and sometimes a little thin or bright in the treble but I attributed that to my speakers. It seemed to avoid most of the pitfalls of solid state amps. I enjoyed every minute I had it and would probably still have it had I not run into money trouble. However, the longer I had it the more I noticed that something was missing. I could never put my finger on it.
After I sold the unit I had to use a little NAD 7020 receiver. As impressive at it is, it is not quite as clean or quite as powerful (darn close though) but I was stunned by the muscality, by the emotional impact it had. Then it hit me. What I was missing with the digital amp was the emotional connection to the music. I talked to the dealer that had sold me the unit and he was not surprised to hear this. He said the trend he is seeing is that people think the digital is wonderful at first. But over a period of time, for many it seems to take a couple years, people begin to realize something is missing. He lent out one of the units a couple years ago to a big shot audiophile. This individual had the unit for about two weeks. He brought it back in and made the statement, "It is great; it does nothing wrong; does everything almost perfectly and I hate it." He couldn't explain why. A salesman at a well-known high end distributor who carried these items told me over the phone that he had spent a great deal of time listening to the Bel Canto and his feeling was it did everything well but the 'soul' was stripped from the music.
Once again, this is only my experience living with this type of amp for the last three years and what I have heard from others. As I said, I probably would still have it but knowing what I know now, I am not sure how long I would have kept it. I guess it is going to affect everybody differently and like everything else in audio, it is all in what you like, not what anybody else likes. |
hi ait:
i auditioned the raptors, as my friend owns a pair.
did you have a problem with the upper midrange/lower treble ? i liked what the amps did with the bass, but i found the upper midrange/lower treble unpleasant. |
Ait your quote
"Since others have not seemed to experience the same, all I can say is that the implementation of class D is highly dependent on the rest of your system"
This is why most manufacturers and dealers have gone to a in home audition. I tried different pre amps with my system including Nuforces P-9 and it took the tubed Audio Horizon 2.1 to create the magic sound i was looking to hear with my system.
I am happy for all who can get sound that blows there skirt up and makes there ears happy no mater what gear is used. Good for you Ait way to tell it like it is. I'm sure thats why there so many manufacturers with so much gear available thats making a living in this hobby.
Variety is the spice of life. |
I have owned the Gilmore Raven Stereo Class D amp and I have just traded it in for a pair of the Gilmore Raptor monoblocks. I auditioned the Raven against the Nuforce 9 SE v2 and it was far superior in my system (Supratek Chenin tube preamp, Zu Druid Speakers, Zero One Mercury CD-HD player). The Nuforces caused audible interference with my Suprateks, I could actually hear the hum from my listening position. Since others have not seemed to experience the same, all I can say is that the implementation of class D is highly dependent on the rest of your system. My system could not stomach the Nuforce's switching power supply and it's resultant RF noise, the Gilmore's linear PS was a much better match - your mileage may vary.
I have moved to the Raptors since I have recently changed my speakers to vintage Infinity RSIIb's - they need a LOT more power than the Druids! |
The review of Nuforces Ref 9 SE V2 in Decembers The Absolute Sound is a good example of how Class D has evolved. A very positive review by a first rate rag.
I have been on this ride from the beginning with Nuforces class D amp, my first NF Ref 9 of three years ago. The latest version V2 like i suspect of most class D amps mentioned above is far superior to the first versions of these super revealing amps. The truth is these amps are so revealing that if the rest of your system is not up to it you hear the weakest link and its not the amps.
What i dont understand is the wasted time on advising something to someone who like a lot of others i have encountered on this subject who just like to pick and make statements with out any merit. As for Coffeeys negativity who cares i know i dont. We are free to buy and enjoy what we like.
I dont know about other manufacturers of these super amps but in Nuforces case upgrades are offered to there customers. You are not stuck with the old and can easily move up the the newest technology. As good as that business sense is the real reason for my owning these class D amps is they take my system to levels i thought not possible with power, speed, clarity and hours upon hours of music with out fatigue.
|
"best class D will sound superb and the poorly designed class D will sound like crap and the same goes for tubes, SS etc. etc."
Thank you Radical. . . couldn't have said it more eloquently myself (grins!) |
I have been a tube guy for a couple of decades but after demoing and then moving to Spectron amps - from stereo to mono block there can never be any doubt I made an improvement in my enjoyment of my rig. Now, there are lots of good SS, Tube and class D amps and similarly lots of overpriced but well hyped but not great gear. For me the bottom line was that the Spectron class D amps removed a veil that my previous tube amps had and also class D amps seem to have the speed and cadence to ensure that all of the signal reaches the speakers at the right time. Hard to define but easier to hear.
There are a bunch of great amps that I would be delighted to have in my system (assuming appropriate synergies) and I could name a short list of SS, Tube and Class D. My point is that circuit design, good board topography, effective procurement and manufacturing can deliver a great product, or not, so the best class D will sound superb and the poorly designed class D will sound like crap and the same goes for tubes, SS etc. etc.
Bel Canto, Rowland, Spectron are all great products.
My rant ends with the principle that system synergy ends up defining the quality of final sound - and most likely a product of electro-mechanical parameters. |
Which Bel Canto Coffeey? Even in an otherwise limiting system at this year's RMAF I could hear a lot of promise. Were you comparing to your Counterpoint? Of course Bel Canto isn't near the top of the ICEPower heap, but it shouldn't make your skin crawl.
If your skin crawled with the latest Bel Canto, then I expect that there was something wrong with the system.
What aspects made your skin crawl? That's a pretty broad dismissal, said with a certain degree of authority that would imply that you know what you're talking about, so why not share some details? Maybe, as little as listing the other system components and where the audition took place. Were there any comparisons made? Were the components in balanced mode?
I haven't heard the Red Dragon, but I'd worry about the wooden chassis and sheet metal chassis not delivering the isolation from EMI and RFI that ICEPower needs. Those are pretty expensive units in a very basic looking chassis.
Dave |
Coffey, I empathize with your experience with Red Dragon Leviathan. . . I suspect this device may not be quite representative of the state of the class D art. Conversely, on the subject of Bel Canto. . . it's a brand, not a device. Unless you have auditioned at some length the Mk.2 versions of the Ref 500 or Ref 1000, you may have heard obsolete models that sound to all accounts not quite as refined as the new ones. |
I listened plenty long to both Bel Canto and Red Dragon,and guess what at the end it was ugly and unmusical,and frankly made my skin crawl,so dont give me the part about not listening. |
The bottomline Coffey, is that unless you had the opportunity of listening at some length to at least a couple of well broken in examples of the more well regarded / advanced class D amplifiers on the market today, you won't have any idea if these devices are for you or not. Try a careful listen to at least 2 or more of the following: latest H2O monos, Spectron monos with all the upg, Bel Canto Ref 500 Mk.2, Bel Canto Ref 1000 MK.2, JRDG 312, JRDG Continuum 500, JRDG 501 monos with a PC1 on each monoblock. . . . . In the end, at least you will have formed a reasonably educated opinion. about some significant examples in the current state of the class D art. |
Coffeey, I fail to see you have the experience to make such a sweeping generalization. |
Coffeey, why would anyone dig up a copy HiFi Plus to see how class D sounds? Listen for youself and listen to the latest generation. Those guys are way behind the curve.
If you don't trust your own ears, then it won't matter what you buy or listen to, will it?
Dave |
Ugly Huh? I must have very bad earwax buildup. . . the more I listen to my class D JRDG 312 the more I like it. . . or may be it's in those bad recessive genes of mine. . . who knows! (smiles!) |
Spectron,Rowland expensive as they are doesnt mean better sound quality at all ,dig up a copy of hi fi plus,there's a summary somewhere here on agon,it gets right to the point,class d wows at first after that it gets ugly. |
Im finally taking the time to put my two pennies on the board. I want to share my discovery with fellow audiophiles in cyberspace.
Not long ago, I purchased Wyred4Sound stereo amplifier (200S 125 watts output). I have been hearing so many good things about D class amplifiers. I decided to give it a try. After a long research, Wyred4sound caught my attention not only because the company works with PS Audio, but also it is one of premier custom modifications centers in the country, if not the world.
My budget was limited at the time, so I purchased the stereo amp. When the amp finally arrived home double boxed, I could not believe how light and small the amplifier was. The small size was very much welcome after a long time dealing with my 100 pound Krell amp. The primary reason for such small size is the amps state of the art ICE technology. The overall feel and quality of parts was well above the amps price point.
I was excited to hear what this little amp could do. I popped in a Cowboy Junky cd. All I can say is ! WOW!! WOW!! WOW! I could not believe my ears on how good it sounded right out of the box.
After about 300 hours or so the amp really warmed up. I can safely say that the amp gives a tube like sound, but with a lot more authority. The bass was strong and detailed. Many tube amps lack that authoritative bass. The amp has the speed and resolution of a solid state amplifier that would cost three to four times as much. I really dont see anyone going wrong with Wyred4Sound amps.
This amp has that special something that most of audiophiles are looking for - its musicality.
Do yourself a favor and audition one of Wyred4Sound amps. I assure you, you will not be disappointed. From what I have been told, the more powerful mono amplifiers sound even better.
If you are considering purchasing a class D amplifier take a look at the Wyred 4 Sound amplifiers. Nothing comes close to these amplifiers at the current price.
www.wyred4sound.com
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/wyred4sound.htm
Speakers: Usher 6371
CD Player: Jolida JD 100 (RCA Tubes)
Preamp: Cary Tube
Amplifier: Wyred4Sound 200S FET No Op-Amp
Power Cables: Morrow - MAP2
Extra Power Cables: Shunyata - Diamondback
IC: DH Labs Revelation Silver Core
Speaker Cable: Clear Day Silver Core
AC Receptacle: Oyaide SWO-GX
Electricity: Dedicated 20 Amp. Power Line & Ground (16 foot Copper rod) |
I'm still a big fan of PS Audio's HCA-2 especially for what it can be had for at current used prices. It uses an analog power supply (highly desirable and has only two gain stages (no B&O Ice Modules here). It was a Stereophile Class A product when first conceived and trounced Bel Cantos effort at the time. One pro reviewer stated that many digital designs will follow the HCA-2 but they will not have the quality & effort that was afforded this amp.
To the point there is an upgrade targeted for the HCA-2 that invlolves replacing the four input caps with Black Gate capacitors. It has been mentioned in the forums that this upgrade is the most desrable & cost effective for sound improvement. I personally own a HCA-2 with this upgrade and will tell you it sounds spectacular. Extended but refined highs, a gorgeous midrange approaching tube magic and killer bass. Also this upgrade opens up the soundstage and yes I previously owned the stock unit for comparison and other new digital amps. |
Seems I found this thread a little late in the game. . . oh well!
In answer to Steidlguitars. . . you are historically correct. It is IMO only in the last couple of years that several class D implementation have left behind some of the idiosyncratic behavior of class D and are in fact exposing the intricacy of harmonic decay in a manner that I deem astonishing. My very preferred devices have already been mentioned here: Rowland 312 and C500, Bel Canto Ref 500/1000 Mk.2 series, recent Spectron Musician 3 implementations.
Coffey is also correct in his cautionary opinion. . . I have listened to the Red Dragon Leviathan twice now at RMAF. . . and I have hardly ever listened to that much intermodulation distortion coming from any system, with amps of any class. I suspect that class D may be no panacea for ensuring quality sound.
G. |
Dear Dev,
I did not see any other "big" speakers. If you can try Joule-Electra (or powerful Athma-Sphere)it could be interesting experience for you. While Joule Electra list Rite of Passage as theirt most power amp (200 watts), they have even more powerful, Destiny - 300 watts per monoblock and as far as I understand they have all specs and looks identical to Rite of Passage but have 4 tubes more..
Vicdamone: "What happens when Kal reviews a product? " Not much, I am afraid - simply I give more weight to the rumors and writings about the product and sometimes I will go to do serious audition myself if I need this type of equipment. I do respect a few reviewers, Kal is one of them.
Dear Snopro. Yes, I fully agree with you. I have now REX by BAT - very good preamp. Simply I expect more from Joule-Electra "Marianne Electra Memorial Edition Preamp"..I will see.
All The Best
Rafael |
Rafael, you seemed to have confirmed my suspicions. ;-)
Dave |
Dob, I am curious did you run a tube pre-amp with your Spectrons?
I find running a tube pre into the Spectron gives it that naturalness without losing that effortless, clear sound which is it's forte.
IMS the synergy is excellent you get the best of both worlds. Just my 2 cents YMMV. |
"11-28-08: Dob
Hello Dave: Never make assumptions. I own a pair of Spectrons with all upgrades ($21k retail). Good amps. I heard a lot about your Jeff Rowland ($9k) and I am well familiar with Rowland 312 ($14k) - you probably can add new Bel Canto Ref1000 Mk2 ($6k/pr) but I will wait Kal's review and then I will add it to the list of 1st class - class D amplifiers"
What happens when Kal reviews a product? |
Dob, very interesting indeed. What did the rest of this system consist of that you heard with the MBL's and I presume when you refer to big MBL's they are the 101E's, same speakers I own. I really enjoy my MBL's and every amp combo I pair up with them I learn new things even with the amps presently in place which are just carry overs from my CAT JL3's until I find replacements.
Does this same person also own JMLab Focal Grande Utopia BE speakers (MSRP: $99,995) may have sold them by now. Black piano, wood floors in the living room, Teres table.
Look forward to your thoughts of the Joule pre., from what I have heard suppose to be a real gem.
|
Dear Dev, Please see above in my response to Dave what I heard in Joule-Electra power amp. To your amin question: Yes, we all heard about new upcoming killer preamp from Joule-Electra and I know personally the gentleman who you mentioned. My current preamp is REX by BAT, truly excellent preamp. However, in a few days I will be receiving new Joule-Electra flagship preamp - I never heard it, I got it only upon recommendation of this person - and he did only excellent recommendation (so far that is).
If ths preamp has some family resemblance to Joule-Electra power amps I expect to be in heaven...
I will let you know and if I will like it... I will write serious review.
Thank you and all the best.
Rafael |
Hello Dave: Never make assumptions. I own a pair of Spectrons with all upgrades ($21k retail). Good amps. I heard a lot about your Jeff Rowland ($9k) and I am well familiar with Rowland 312 ($14k) - you probably can add new Bel Canto Ref1000 Mk2 ($6k/pr) but I will wait Kal's review and then I will add it to the list of 1st class - class D amplifiers
...and then I spent a week in Canada and friend of the friend owns Joule-Electra Rite of Passage and big MBL speakers. I spent a large number of hours , almost every day, in his listening room. I will not tell you how accurate was this or inacuracte was that (I am professional cellist) - frankly I did not give a ... I knew I can't stand, I can't leave, I can't stop listening to the music. It was increadibly REALISTIC representation of REAL music. I am like a dog - I can tell you what I hear, I can't explain why (I did not hear euphonic even order or other kind of distortions, sorry)
Joule-Electra's web site is a bit neglected so you have to do your own research..... and you will discover that his "equipment" was reviewed time and time again by Harry Pearson of TAS, David Robonson of Positive Feedback and such, that he has many prestigeous awards etc etc.
So at first I thought that I am insane but now I know that I am only poor. I can't afford big MBL with Rite of Psssage.
I suspect that you want to say that I was hearing effect of MBL. Its true but I heard to these great speakers with so many solid state amps (including MBL) that I know that I heard - I heard "magic" pure and simple "magic".
So, Dave - let us enjoy good amps we own but please let me dream about listening to REAL music or....its SOUL
All The Best
Rafael |
Dcstep, thanks for your response.
Regarding the Rowland gear I was just wondering if you had personally heard any of their earlier designs for example 9Ti mono's and what your thoughts were in comparison to the latest which you answered.
Class "D" product is very interesting, I look forward to personally having a listen to some of these pieces especially the latest designs to see if the improvements change my past listening experiences which I had aprox. a year ago.
|
Dev asked:
"Dcstep, do you feel that the class "D" gear Rowland and Spectron are lacking in offering how Dob put it "the painting by TALANTED artist which can look into the soul of individual."
What are your thoughts of other Rowland gear compared them directly to their class "D" product we are specifically talking about. Do you prefer it over all over other Rowland products and if so why."
I don't consider the Rowland or Spectron "lacking" in anything. When your sources are excellent, then the musical experience will all the soul that could be desired. Some audiophiles prefer a slightly euphonic delivery. As a musician, I prefer accuracy, which excludes unrealistic hardness or edge.
If you're asking me to compare Rowland to Spectron, I can't say anything further than they're both excellent and of the same philosophy. I've heard them in different systems and liked them both very much. Both are transparent and clear with effortless dynamic and no sonic signature. I have no temptation to move to Spectron, but if I needed more clean, accurate power, then I'd look at the Spectron first.
I'm not sure that I understand the second part of your question. I'm only familiar with Rowland's more recent products, like the Continuum 500, 312, Capri, Critereon, 501, 201 and 102. I've read where some thought that older Rowland products had a slightly "warm" delivery. That's not true of the current crop, IMHO.
Dave |
Hi Dob,
yes it was your review I was making reference too.
I have to say when you refer to saying "I know my answer."
I whole heartily agree and we seem to be in the same camp so which is it? of these two fine products Athma-Sphere or Joule-Electra?
My thought is your answer lays with Joule because I have heard from many describing like you have but could be wrong, I have been told that I should be trying their mono blocks.
You should do another review with details of your outcome of the amps and differences you found. I heard a specific person whom allot know (not naming just encase for now) will be joining their team to assist in enhancing their product specifically the new pre-amp, should be interesting indeed.
What speakers are you using currently.
Dcstep, do you feel that the class "D" gear Rowland and Spectron are lacking in offering how Dob put it "the painting by TALANTED artist which can look into the soul of individual."
What are your thoughts of other Rowland gear compared them directly to their class "D" product we are specifically talking about. Do you prefer it over all over other Rowland products and if so why. |
Well, with a name like "Rafael" (the great Italian artist), we'll know that you're more into interpretation than "accuracy." There's nothing wrong with that, BUT, I predict, if you love Atma, then you'll not be happy with Spectron or Rowland.
I'm from the other school, but I know where you're coming from.
Dave |
Hello Dev,
"Sbank, there are few that have gone from Tube amps to specifically Spectron amps latest version. There is a lengthy but very good review on Audiogon from one owner and the amps he compared to which are very respected, there are others also and this is why these have peaked my interest and want more thoughts from others regarding this..."
I am not sure if you mean my review where I compared Spectron (positively) with VTL Sigfrieds but if its true I heard other tube amplifiers since.
While, I will not take a "penny" from Spectron - its good amp, there are few OTL amplifiers which lead you directly to heaven. I mean Athma-Sphere and Joule-Electra, and to ask which is better its the same as to ask who is the better painter Susanne or Degah (spelling is bad?).
I will rephrase: do you prefer hi-res photo portrait or the paintning by TALANTED artist which can look into the soul of individual. I know my answer.
All The Best
Rafael |
Vicdamone did not intend to double up on what you have said. I wrote the post and got side tracked for awhile then made the post with out going back to the thread.
Your response tells it like it is. Its also true that not all like milk in there coffee. |
This months The Absolute Sound has a review of Nuforce Ref 9 SE V2 amps that Chris Martens gave a very positive review of.
I have been using these class d proprietary amps for quite a while. I took my standard Ref 9 of almost three years ago through Nuforce upgrade plan to SE then V2. The upgrades being very reasonable and well worth the small price for the latest technology IMO. The first version to my ears did not have the problems that Martens refers to in the new review, he did the original ref 9 back in TAS issue 158.
Nuforce like most audio companies offer an in home trial for system matching.
My system with class d powering it has won over my doubts with superior sound and total musical enjoyment. I am not pushing these amps just giving my experience with class d. |
This hobby is so subjective and system dependent that individual opinion, whether it be from a casual user or even professional reviewers, is almost useless. The handling of The Absolute Sound's reviews of the NuForce 9SE "Amplifier Of The Year", its inclusion in their class D shootout, and recently the 9SE v2, is a wonderful example of subjective audio opinion and editorial disagreement.
Compared to my linear solid state and tube amplifiers class D amplifiers have taken the most effort to integrate into my system to enjoy their full potential and an understandable reason for many of the negative experiences. I'm personally very skeptical of any reference of class D amplifiers sounding tube like. While there may be certain areas were the two may reach a similar timbre their general presentations are different. You like the sound of tubes, buy a tube amp. |
Well said Muralman1. Ultimately, the owner's satisfaction is most important and you've apparently acheived that.
Dave |
i have auditioned two versions--the nuforce 9's and the raptors. both amps retail for about $5000. they remind me of a typical transistor amp. they are capable in the region below 200 hz and are deficient above 200 hz. |
Dcstep, Unlike me ;D, my system is very very sensitive to everything..... especially criticism :D
My Scintillas have 40 feet of gossamer light naked ribbons. And they just do HF. The highs are audibly infinite. In conjunction with my H2O amps, twice improved, I have Henry Ho's Fire preamp too.
I like the NOS Audio Note DAC for it's purity. There is no filter software messing with it.
Tube changes, cable changes, speaker placement, are a devil's playground. I think I just lucked out. |
