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Questioning the need for a DAC

Friends,
I have a modified Oppo 103 that was a huge step up from my $2K Consonance tube CD player.  I also have a Jolida FX Tube DAC, maybe the II version, which I have had for many years.  I ran the Oppo directly into my system (I have a Don Sachs tube preamp and various amps, tube and SS, and Spatial Audio Hologram M4 Turbo S speakers) and then through the Jolida.  I honestly didn't hear a difference.  Some months later,  I demo'd a Schiit Gungnir and did the same comparison.  I really couldn't discern an audible difference with the Schiit in or out of the system.  I will admit that I sent the Schiit back for a refund after only 30 hours or so of burn-in so maybe 100 hours of burn-in might have lead to a different outcome.  A boatload of audiophiles rave about the sonic improvement with the pricey DAC's in their systems, no question about it.  With my ears, not so much.  

A "cheap and cheerful" audiophile friend of mine, who doesn't listen to much digitally-reproduced music, posed an interesting question.   If one invests in a modern quality CD player (i.e., like the Oppo 103 or 105, which make the Stereophile list of "Class A" products or many others between $1K-$5K), why is there the expectation that one needs a separate DAC to improve the sound of the DAC?   It is not trivial question.  As a matter of fact, I called Oppo while I was auditioning the Schiit DAC, nonplussed, asking why I wasn't hearing some significant improvement with the addition of an external DAC of the caliber of the Gungnir.  In response, the Oppo rep suggested, quite casually, that maybe the internal DAC in the modestly-priced Oppo 103 was quite good.  Indeed, because that is what my 63-year old ears told me.

I'd be keen to hear feedback from others who ponder the same question.   As I age, I am aware of the desire of sellers of many audio products to strike a deal with me that frankly might benefit them more financially than I  benefit sonically.  Cheers, Mark 

  
whitestix

Showing 7 responses by williewonka

williewonka
3,066 posts
 
Whitestix, I assume you were using the SPDIF input from the Oppo to the Gungnir?

Hopefully not using the USB interface in the Gugnir?

If you were using the USB interface then the Gungnir was not performing  anywhere near it's full potential.

I have the Bifrost and found that by bypassing the USB interface, i.e. using a V-Link192 for USB conversion to SPDIF, elevates the performance of the Bifrost to a whole new level of detail.

It should work wonders on the Gungnir.

FYI - the Bifrost and Gungnir utilize the exact same USB interface.

Then again, the Oppo is a very good digital source.

Regards...

williewonka
3,066 posts
 
Sbank, The USB port circuitry on the Bifrost/Gungnir both utilize power from the computers USB port

DAC's that use power from their own onboard power supply tend to perform so much better than those that use the power from the computers USB port simply because the power being supplied is so much cleaner that that supplied via the computers USB port

So my listening test was as follows...
1. the Bifrost DAC was connected via its USB port to my computers USB port, then...
2. I connected the Vlink192 to my computers USB port, but connected it to the Bifrost with via a digital coax.

#2 was clearly superior. 

Was I wrong to conclude that the USB implementation of the V-Link192 is superior to the that of the Bofrost/Gungnir?

The V-link192 simply converts USB to Coax Digital - and if its USB interface was not superior wouldn't the sound be the same when played through the same DAC?

Both interfaces were powered by the same power supply.
The source USB interface on the computer did not change

The only thing that changed was the USB interface from that on the Bifrost to completely circuitry of the Vlink192

What else could explain this?

I stand by my findings until I am educated otherwise :-)
williewonka
3,066 posts
 
Spencer...
Was I wrong to conclude that the USB implementation of the V-Link192 is superior to the that of the Bofrost/Gungnir? Yes, wrong conclusion. The proper conclusion is that the V-Link 192 & coax cable allows the DAC to receive better/quieter signal vs. the noisy USB output of your noisy computer.

OK - so after reading your last post - here’s how I see it...
  1. the V-link USB interface is processing the very same signal as the Bifrost’s USB interface
  2. Somehow, with the V-link in the mix, the Bifrost sounds significantly better
  3. From what you have said this is more due to the ability for the V-link to "clean up" the digital signal, as opposed to the quality of the USB interface employed in each component.
  4. OK, I can see how that is probably the more significant cause for improvement - but perhaps not the only one :-)
In my defence, I guess my conclusion may have been tainted by the fact that I had previously installed the SCHIIT USB Upgrade board which improved SQ somewhat, so I assumed the V-links’s USB circuit alone was providing the benefit.

FYI, in my system I use a dual lead USB cable - one lead carries only the signal and the other lead carries only the power and they are joined at the end of the cable that plugs into the DAC (or V-link). I have also implemented a separate, very stable power supply in order to eliminate the USB power related issues.

However, the difference the V-link made was also easily noticed even when using a standard USB cable that provides power from the computer.

So when the original poster stated the Gungnir did not provide too much of an improvement I figured I’d post my findings. which I believe still stand ...

  • To get the very best out of the Gungnir (or Bifrost), you have to bypass its USB port

Regards...

williewonka
3,066 posts
 
Spencer - where do you live ? I'll be right over :-)

Anywhere near Toronto, Canada?

Kidding aside - given the opportunity, I'm always willing to  get together with other Audio enthusiasts to "compare notes"

There are so many different things to try and time prevents us from trying all of them - that's why Audiogon is the perfect place to share information and approaches taken by its members

Good chatting with you


williewonka
3,066 posts
 
Whitestix -  FYI - over the last 4 years I have found that IC's and PC's can degrade or enhance the performance of any component.

Trying to perform a comparison of two components connected with different IC's and PC's can result in an inaccurate assessment

Quality PC's in particular, can have a huge impact on the performance of a connected component but it also depends on how good the power supply of that component is.

I found that the better the power supply, the less "noticeable" impact the PC had, but I hasten to add that the improvements of a good PC on a component with a good power supply, the improvements became more subtle and refined (i.e. I had to listen more intently initially)

An example of this ...

- my Bifrost DAC (with an OK power supply), when connected with an excellent PC and IC provided a most noticeable improvement in dynamics, imaging, bass depth etc..

- whereas attaching the same cables to my Simaudio Moon phono stage, (that has a better quality power supply) provided more subtle improvements in the extremely fine details and clarity

- my amp. having the biggest power supply, seemed to improve the least, but the improvements were there in the acoustics of the venue, hence a more realistic overall presentation 

When I experienced just how much difference cables made, it became apparent that my components were capable of performing so much better than I had realized and to get them all performing at their best, I decided all my cables had perform to the same level.

Good luck with your comparisons
williewonka
3,066 posts
 
Spencer, if you know where to look there is plenty of vinyl, especially around the Queen/University-Spadina area.

One of the nicest stores for previously enjoyed albums is called Around Again (nice play on words). Most of their stuff is top notch and you can trade your old albums in for a store credit. They also have a couple of TT’s with headphones so you can listen before you buy - do you remember those days? We had a store in the UK with actual listening booths - when I was a kid :-)

I picked up a 1958 Chris Barber album in great condition a few years back from Around Again for around $8 CDN

You should bring your US$ up some time for a visit :-)

Toronto is also a great area for audiophilia, with lots of high-end stores that also carry a selection of high quality vinyl as well.

It’s a really good place to live if you are into audio, but alas, my wife retires soon, so we are moving 100 miles further north to the ski areas, which means I gotta get out and hi-fi shop before we move :-)

Cheers

williewonka
3,066 posts
 
Whitesix, discerning a difference between two components is something I also found to be very difficult in the beginning..

It wasn't until I got into reviewing some high priced cables/RCA's for the manufacturer and devoting a lot of time to what I refer to as "the art of listening", that I was able to notice small, but discernible improvements.

I started with a collection of about 20 tracks that I thought might indicate improvements in an audition. Over time that list changed, as I heard other tracks in which I heard sounds that were never before noticed, or were more pronounced. The number of my audition tracks is now over 50  and some of the original tracks are no longer used for evaluations.

I've listened to those tracks over and over and I am now very familiar with their various subtleties.

The other thing about auditioning - you have to allow time for the cables to settle and the components to burn in (if they are new).
- I've auditioned cables that took 3 days just to settle and over 300 hours to burn in - painful!

It's not what i would call f fun and I would recommend that if you are happy with the sound/components you have, then don't bother chasing nirvana unless you have endless cash :-(

I know people in this hobby tend to look for the next best sounding components, but I do not, I just like to get the best performance out of the components I have.

All of my cables are DIY and they provide amazing fidelity, bettering some very high priced commercial products out there.

For now - I am extremely happy with my system and no longer chase after better components or cables.

I'm just enjoying the music - finally :-)


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