Putting an end to the audio cable debate! Part 1

Anyone with the temerity to call an article "Putting an end to...[insert longstanding debate]" should be willing to portray themselves about to jump off a tall building.

I don't think that he expressed any unique thoughts. It's pretty much all been said before.

I tend to agree with both of you. I actually might categorize it as little more than click bait which is why I was hesitant to even post it. But who knows? maybe someone will get something worthwhile from the questions he poses

There will be no end to the debate as long as there are people who prefer to be skeptics rather than to experiment for themselves.

All this comes down to "high-end" and "price".  Both of those mean nothing to me.  A cable either makes a difference in ones system or it doesn't.  That being said, I am not a cable junkie but recently heard a speaker cable that made more of an impact that I had previously heard with many other cables.  It also made the same impact in three completely different systems.  One more that the other two but it was there.

So if you don't hear a significant change in your system - so what - another person may hear a bigger impact in their system then you do.  So what?   The question still remains - how much are you willing to pay for that change for your system?

Happy Listening.

It is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it may be the end of the beginning.   

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

It is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it may be the end of the beginning.  

So....intermission?! 

"The price of luxury goods is not based solely on production costs, it is dependent on the value perceived by the consumer. The pricing strategy is simple: How much is the consumer willing to pay to achieve this status, quality, and extra-ordinary experience?

If the product sells, it's because it meets a consumer need."

I agree.  The conflict occurs when people need others to share their same beliefs.  Not sure why this is even a debate - value is uniquely established when weighed against a set of personal standards.  Judge for yourself, vote with your wallet, and let others do the same.

@mitch2 

"The conflict occurs when people need others to share their same beliefs"

This should be inscribed at the beginning of every thread, here, as we are all susceptible to such behavior. Of course, such wisdom is of little use,  absent sufficient self-awareness, which is perhaps the more fundamental problem. 

Amir admitted he could hear the difference! Dionysian audiophiles everywhere rejoice!

@mitch2 

"The conflict occurs when people need others to share their same beliefs"

This should be inscribed at the beginning of every thread, here, as we are all susceptible to such behavior. Of course, such wisdom is of little use, absent sufficient self-awareness, which is perhaps the more fundamental problem.

Sounds just like the algorithm Farcebook uses with it's "members". Their echo chambers and the attendant expectations spilled out and poisoned the rest of us. Lots come here with the expectation that they have to have consensus, followers, likes and all the BS that comes with it.

All the best,
Nonoise

I first learned about the loony theory of cables making a difference back in 1990. Back then we didn't know about identity math, we just took one number and subtracted from another to get the difference. I mention this in case some of you more modern types wants to argue when I say 1990 was 31 years ago. Fine then. Have it your way. Whatever. Point is, long time ago.  

Every year, month, week, day, hour, of that time someone has been staggered to learn just how big a difference cables make- and someone else has stuck his head in the sand swearing no way no way no how no way.  

Ironic then that the OP reads an article about "putting and end to" and says, "but I wish they would have continued."   

Trust me. They will.

Good discussion from an audio engineer (electrical engineer) on some reasons why cables can sound different. The discussion starts around 55 minutes in. There are actual reasons why cables do sound different. Many "objectivists" just don't know enough of the science about cable construction to know why.

http://https//www.thehifipodcast.net/episodes/episode-54-shielding-grounding-draining-isolation

Personally I think this guys views on cables ,dumb period.
It’s  like saying all vacuum tubes sound the same , or any decent turntable cartridge are all very similar ,and with digital bits are bits 
everything is just vanilla  .

If they sound different the debate will continue. 

One takeway I got from these forums is that the most important part of a audio system is the quality of the source equipment and associated equipment, speakers, and from MC, Townsend speaker stands.   Speaker cables, interconnects and power cords are, to me, important but secondary  levels of consideration, with interconnects being the most "tweakish of the lot.  On interconnects, I will not go crazy over "5-nines silver". Well constructed copper cables are good enough for me. I will go a bit higher on speaker cables.

Just purchased a pair of xlr cables by Furie on Amazon for $19 plus shipping. Unbelievable improvement across the bandwidth. 
Go figure. 

There's never an end to any audio category debate, much less to audio cables. These are the kind of debates that will still be going on after the universe explodes.

"Sorry. Couldn't resist. "

..yes, you might have....omitting the 'something/nothing' issues...is just.....*tsk*

Why don’t we have 50 of us get together to audition speaker cables and take notes about what you heard.  Label them 1,2,3 etc. without names and see if people can hear a difference when hearing expensive speaker wires.  It might be funny if 30 people liked the sound produced by cheaper cable’s better.  It would also be nice to do the same with power cords.

Once everybody has $3k/meter retail to drop on a loom of ICs the debate may come to end.

My ears seem to be the most sensitive to IC changes vs power cords & speaker wire. I sold a AQ Fire cable to buy a longer one. While I had a Water between preamp & amp for a week the system was not nearly as enjoyable. Knowing this, I'd start building a system with a $3k/meter retail loom of ICs such as Fire or KS 1136. Then focus on finding components that are up to snuff of the cables.

Good gear doesn't sound so good on cheap ICs.

Part 1! So it’s not the end then 🤣

Is it fair to compare xlr/balanced cables with RCA/unbalanced, as has been done here and elsewhere?

I am under the impression that there are different processes invoked in employing the use of each type of cable.  It is not changing just one variable, but quite a few.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Marketing is everything! Look what clever marketing has done for Ted Denny's Synergistic Research! Quantum tunnelling indeed!

"Marketing is everything!"

I disagree. 
You have to make a product that actually works, or you're going to go out of business pretty quickly.

Marketing certainly brings awareness to your name, though, so it no doubt increases sales.

I have read a lot about this and no matter what side tells the story I still cannot wrap my head around a $15,000 patch cord. A simple RCA connection between the preamp and amp will cost $30,000? I want to meet the person who can hear an audible difference between a $15K and $5K patch cord. I will buy that person dinner. But they have to prove it first. 

All cables work. The real work begins when  justifying the cost, either by the producer or the buyer. 
As a caveat I believe in spending money on cables that approximates the cost of your system. Lamp cord to a Magico works but I would not suggest such an approach.

I find that Pangea Digital and analog cables punch Way above their price point. Smooth...airy....and definition all for alot less than the ridicilous prices on some of the supposedly High End Cables.

The debate ended for me 35 years ago when I swapped a digital cable and my system sound changed so much it was as if someone had brought in two new and significantly better components. Since then I just don’t understand the discussion. It’s up there with: Is the Earth flat, freezing temperature of water, and gravity.

There's obviously a part of all audiophiles who loves a debate like this!

I agree with what I think Larry5729 is getting at and would also love to participate in something along those lines. The only way to credibly attempt to resolve this endless question or debate, if that is indeed possible, would be to conduct double blind studies or testing under strict scientifically controlled conditions. Even then, there will always be those who wouldn't accept the science or the results. Just look at the flat-earthers among us now! Conducting trials like this would be trickier than it sounds. No pun intended!

For example... (and please bear in mind this is just an example, for fun, from someone without a scientific background; someone who loves, loves, loves music, like all of you - so, don't go getting your BVD's & panties all bent up into a twist) what if a large number of audiophiles and people who just love music but don't have fancy audiophile sound systems at home were selected for an experiment(s) or trial(s) like this? What if one segregated these judges or evaluators into 3 large groups who've all experienced X number of live music performances of various music genres involving various musical instruments over a specified time period? What if all these judges or critical listeners (the more, the better) underwent audiological examinations and were segregated into... say... one group involving those with optimum human hearing capacity, one with identified and defined average good hearing capacity and one with identified or defined level(s) of normal presbycusis? I think this would be a good start. However, there would be a host of other considerations to control for, as well! The selected hardware (i.e. sound system(s)) would be an interesting one. Would one choose... say... what would be considered an average entry level hi-fi system and, then, another that is a significant step above that and, then, another that would be considered an ultimate hi-fi system? I'm thinking in threes, I guess, just to keep things relatively simple but, hopefully, you get the point. One could have a bevy of electrical engineers test & measure the selected cables after the subjective results.

I can hear the chatter already! Still, this would be interesting and, like Larry5729, I would love to participate in an experiment like this. To my knowledge, I don't think anything on the scale I'm imagining has ever been done. If it has, please share! If a cable manufacturer could prove, beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, that their cables sounded better than their competitors', wouldn't they have done that by now? I think the incentive, rather, is to keep this debate alive and well. What audiophile who purchased $30,000 cables would want to hear that a pair of $5,000 cables would sound just as good in their system or, perish the thought, even better? It's the mystique!

A couple of years ago, I had the privilege of using two of Tim Mrock’s (RIP) prototype PCs. Unless overcome by complete deafness, anyone who doubts that cables make a difference would change their minds instantly upon listening to the first cut of an LP, or the first track on a CD. Sending them back after using them for three weeks was like pulling ribs out of my side. And the PCs I use are not chopped liver by any means (Synergistic Research Atmosphere UEF Level 3 HC Power Cords).

Frank

I wonder what Tim Mrock's cables did to the sound to make it so obvious to anyone with good hearing? Did it add something good or did it remove something bad?

Shielding is one of the biggest differences as one moves up to better cables. At least in the sub 1k catagory.

I wonder what Tim Mrock's cables did to the sound to make it so obvious to anyone with good hearing?

Completely deaf means anyone without hearing.  Its actually the same thing as just being deaf. 

Everyone else has some degree of hearing - the degree of hearing is irrelevant here..

I think that your question is sensible. 

If you use your ears to compare it's possible you might hear a difference if you use your eyes and ears it's probable you will.

I wonder what Tim Mrock's cables did to the sound to make it so obvious to anyone with good hearing? Did it add something good or did it remove something bad?

Good sounding cables do less harm to the signal than bad sounding cables do. Same deal with good capacitors, resistors, fuses, regs, transformers, etc. etc.

He uses many words to state what I have said many times for years; hubris combined with "thriftiness" = cable skeptic. It's not new, nor revelatory. One's degree has less bearing on disposition toward cables than financial /spending habits. THAT is why the debate will NOT be ended. The title is a come on to pump up the article's hits. 

We'll see if he actually knows what he is doing. It will be obvious.  

oldaudiophile's statement reveal's the problem with carolkong's statement that you have to make, "products that work." The audio industry shuns controlled studies because they will reveal that many audiophile products do not work. 

Cable design is important and bad cables can certainly cause sonic issues. The question is do these ultra expensive cables offer any sonic benefit over a well designed inexpensive cable. Again, it is impossible to draw any conclusions from what other people say something sounds like,
there are too many uncontrollable variables. The two problems from a psychological perspective are; If it is more expensive it must sound better and If it looks sharp it must sound better. I do not see any problem with people buying audio gear because it looks great and they can afford it. Those are easy issues to judge. Sounding better is a huge can of worms.
As always it is consumer beware.

Designing a cable for a specific purpose is not an issue. The science is well known. The problem is that most people do not have that education so they are subject to all kinds of very faulty marketing claims. Honesty went down the tube decades ago.

carolkong, Walker Audio makes and sells some of the stupidest items I have ever seen using the reputation of their turntable as a lever for sales.
They have been in business for decades.

Well I for one, want to read what the author writes in "part 2".

If anyone wishes to see a review of a cable that is made from a purely measurement-driven methodology, read my review of the Iconoclast Cables at Dagogo.com 

You can always go to Belden's site and read about cables made from measurement methodology. 

I, too, want to read Part 2. I also appreciate that he outs himself as a former "all cables sound the same" proponent. This not only makes him, a sonic convert, into a fairly interesting/compelling commentator. It also opens him up to special emnity from those who share his old beliefs.

I have a longstanding policy in social settings, not to discuss religion, politics, or sex--the most divisive, fight-starting topics I know of. In audio settings, I tend not to discuss cables, R2R/NOS DACS vs delta/sigma DACs, tweaks, etc. Not because I'm shy about my beliefs, but because I don't enjoy fighting with people.

There is nothing wrong with measurements. Wouldn't you like to know the capacitance of the cable you plan on hooking up to your turntable with a MM cartridge? What about induction in speaker wires?

In all likelihood all well designed and manufactured cables of any particular type sound exactly the same. To determine this you have to play them side by side switching back and forth. I have done this with speaker wire and single ended interconnects but of a very limited sample size. I do not expect anybody to trust my hearing so, in essence this is an opinion, an educated one. 

************INTERMISSION*************

"We hoped you've all enjoyed this opening segment to the disinterment of:

__________________THE THREAD________________
____________THAT WOULDN'T DIE....______________
____________....and Go Away........_______________

Enjoy your watered down drinks, the tasteless tidbits...

Now, Go SIT Down and tolerate yet another precocious epilogue to...." 

"Putting an end to the audio cable debate." LOL!

Having read it a second time, I find his hand waving, deflections and verbosity less than compelling.

"On the one side is the audiophile who refuses to believe that a cable can make an audible improvement and immediately calls out any price deemed exorbitant. On the other side is the audio enthusiast who claims to hear differences and improvements between cables and understands why one cable may cost more than another, despite their identical length. Unfortunately, these two solitudes seem irreconcilable."

No they aren't.  He goes on to prove that he learnt some sales techniques studying for an MBA, and uses the word "phenomenon" in an inappropriate context.

As @djones51 said, if you wanna learn something about cables, read what the folk at Belden say.  All good stuff.  This guy is just gunna talk more about himself, his theories, and other people in his next epistle.

I was skeptical about cables for quite some time. But even switching out cheaper brands amongst my own system I have noticed there is sometimes a difference in the way it effects the sound - better or worse, that's all subjective - but there is a definitive difference. So yes, in my opinion, cable can absolutely change the way your system presents.

There have now been two suggestions to look at Belden cables. I point out in my review that Galen Gareis was head of development at Belden, and leaned upon his years of research there as an engineer to develop his own audio cables - Iconoclast. I share from my discussion with him that he had approached Belden to see if they would support his research on audio cables, but they felt it was not a large enough market. So, he did it on his own; kudos! 

Imo, Iconoclast is the closest I have seen to a pure measurement-driven methodology in making a cable that obviously influences sonic attributes of systems.