I'll say it again: let's seek out the gem's and leave the rest, folks. Ignore the trolls, or be selective of the actual content they bring up - should you choose to reply; it may even hold an unexpected, worthwhile observation or two on a subject that could put into perspective our endeavors here.
More importantly, if we want this forum to allow for free speech and a degree of resilience, some around here should reconsider their liberal urge to hit the 'report' button, because that's the thing that truly annoys me and what I'd call the real trolls around here: the one's feeling offended on grounds I imagine to be so relative to their own agenda, indeed petty in nature, that their reporting a post or thread is likely to see no further inquiry by the admins and is therefore, simply by virtue of being a report alone, put into effect as an actual deletion.
We should be able to hold a conversation without someone feeling taken aback over what is, in the bigger scheme of things, insignificant issues. If not it's an ongoing, sad tendency to shut the mouths of those we don't agree with, or for some other flimsy reason don't like.
+1 djones51. The "free speech" business is an attempt to cut the OP's original topic short, which attempts to raise the question of norms or best practices. In the OP's view, stifling discussion with the "report" button doesn't allow for a sufficiently vigorous exchange of ideas. That's a reasonable issue to discuss and debate, itself, but it's not in the arena of "free speech."
When kids get together for an informal game of soccer or touch football, one of the things which gets debated along the way is what the rules are and what the rules should be. It's rare for kids to say, "but that's illegal" in a formal sense -- because appealing to standards beyond the situation of their game is ridiculous. That, I take it, is your point, djones51.
Here come the mods ready to shut this topic. I can hear their foot steps now.
My takeaway with the specific cases was some users being ninjas with the 'report'-button, not deletions originally prompted by the admins.
@nonoise --
To wake up and see my post removed for something so petty, and wrong, was off-putting.
One relates..
@hilde45 --
...
If this thread is so worthless, why take any time to read it or comment upon it? If talking about trolling...is pretty much...trolling, then talking about talking about trolling is...more trolling.
+1
@cal91 --
phusis...I'm glad you clarified your use of the term "liberal", but it did come across as political. ...
English not being my first language is hardly an excuse, but at the time of posting it felt like a "good enough" term to use in the context of my intention. Oh well..
... Political correctness is simply being a decent person.
It can also be playing a converging tune that takes the form of an unfortunate precedence, or as poster @unsound put it:
"There’s nothing wrong with expecting people to be decent to each other. But it’s another thing to invite the thought police."
@hilde45 --
... The "free speech" business is an attempt to cut the OP's original topic short, which attempts to raise the question of norms or best practices. In the OP's view, stifling discussion with the "report" button doesn't allow for a sufficiently vigorous exchange of ideas. That's a reasonable issue to discuss and debate, itself, but it's not in the arena of "free speech."
The issue at hand is that, despite conforming to the rules as prescribed by the hosts, that posts are being deleted just because a complaint has been made. When such decisions are arbitrarily made it potentially negates the purpose and value of the forum.
Debating whether some use the report button to often has nothing to do with free speech is part of the point, yes, but I also question this use of these terms "thought police" , "snowflakes " and others used to stifle debate and inject invective. Who are the "thought police"? Tossing the term thought police is in itself policing thought so who are these persons other than all of us. This forum is not a free speech arena as some seem to think and the precedent whether unfortunate or not is a matter of debate as well.
The issue at hand is that, despite conforming to the rules as prescribed by the hosts, that posts are being deleted just because a complaint has been made. When such decisions are arbitrarily made it potentially negates the purpose and value of the forum.
This forums value and purpose is to discuss music and the equipment that reproduces it, if the moderators allow the subject to stray to far afield from that purpose then it's value has been diminished. This arena is not the public square where any idiot can scream at the top of his voice his displeasure on any subject and when I see conspiracy theory nonsense and links to sites that promote them you can bet I'm banging on the report flag.
+1 djones51's point about the general point of this forum being respected.
One other things is relevant to his point, too -- it's really of value to our ability to get along as people to have a space where we keep politics *out*. I really would prefer to talk about audio with people and form bonds with them completely outside of politics. If, down the road, politics comes up (say, off the forum) any disagreements we might have will be more negotiable because we took the time to form friendly bonds about audio, first. Inject politics in the beginning and the chance for camaraderie diminishes dramatically.
My speech is not the same with my love one, with my friends, with a work collegue or with a customer, not the same with an old lady waiting in a line or with a scientist, nor is it the same with the pope, or with an imam, or with a buddhist monk.... Why? Because being free and polite i discern with whom i speak with....
Because i use my free speech ability (not rights) to translate my feelings, ideas, approprietely... What we say and the style or manner to say it matter...
I never discuss quantum dynamic with my grandmother, nor will discuss free speech "rights" here ... And any forum is linked with his own regulatory speech recommendations....It is a good thing to respect them and a good thing also from the regulators to allow some flexibility....A good thing to any of us NOT to use the "button" except in some evident case of disrespect....I never used it before because it is better i think to read "example" of stupidity than to erase them all, most of the times....Censorship is not my first reaction....
Interesting discussion are interesting only if respect is all along the discussion.....
If respect is there even some politic arguments are interesting.... But experience here dictate to me total restraint about that precise road fork because people most of the times think less with one another than they speak useless opinions mantras.....Politics is way much complicated than audio matters anyway....If people cannot agree in audio basic facts imagine politics.... :)
Then it is way better to speak audio, philosophy, psychology etc, but not politics or religions....
The issue at hand is that, despite conforming to the rules as prescribed by the hosts, that posts are being deleted just because a complaint has been made. When such decisions are arbitrarily made it potentially negates the purpose and value of the forum.
Posts aren’t deleted arbitrarily. Many people who claim otherwise haven’t actually read the rules. You might want to read the FAQ.
... all members are responsible for maintaining a professional and cordial demeanor on and off the site including our forums. We will not tolerate the use of hostile, offensive, profane or vulgar language.
^ I firmly disagree with this assertion. I have experienced it first hand. When it was easier to respond in the past, I’ve had deletions reversed. It now seems more difficult to respond to notices of deletions, and even if one is successful in making contact, such petitions are often ignored.
@djones51, the constitution was written over 200 years ago. The concept and words were and aren’t exclusive to the constitution. It might be presumptuous to assume that the actual scope of the rights afforded by the constitution is misunderstood.
^In that the deletions were reversed, why would there be such doubts.
Just the opposite. Sometimes a mistake is made, or the moderator is willing to reconsider a decision in light of more information. That a deleted post is sometimes restored actually demonstrates that deletions are not arbitrary, but are thoughtful and considered. And you're still the first one here to claim that he's been ignored by the Audiogon team, AFAIK.
The seemingly instantaneous manner in which posts are deleted after complaints suggests to my sensibilities that little consideration is made before such knee jerk reactions. I find it curious that one might have access to the data that might suggest I’m the only with such a claim.
As has been stated previously, sometimes the judgments have been reversed, and sometimes the judgements have not been justified. It may be their house, but I don’t think it’s too much to ask that they play by their own house rules.
Look if its your house you get to not only make the rules but interpret them and change them any time you like. Strangers might be welcome but nobody wants strangers calling the shots in their house. I think most people would agree with that.
Audiogon is primarily a house of business. Anything that works against that might be called for a foul I would expect. Also, as a business it's important to make strangers feel welcome so there is always that line to walk.
Please understand that there is not an accusation of implicit bias ( though one might construe it) being made, but rather one of a lack of due diligence. It seems as though the initial accusations are rewarded, before confirmation of the veracity of the allegations being made.
Also, no one's free speech is imperiled by questioning why this thread was posted in the *speakers* forum (unless it's a subtle bit of etymological fun).
For the most part it's all fine and dandy. BUT I've seen excessive deletions on certain occasions. It WAS NOT a software glitch, it was a moderator reaching WAY to far, plane and simple.. I don't praise folks for doing a good job. That's why they are paid. When it's BAD or EXCEPTIONAL, they both get my attention..I prefer the latter, yes, I do...
I've seen ZERO intervention too, when there should have been. ZERO.. Time after time the OP ask the SAME people to move on, pages of harassment, not a single word...OP ASK, and ASK, and ASK.. NOTHING... It was pretty easy to spot, NOT A THING...I felt bad for the guy.. Really...horrible!!!!! :-) let me shed a tear...No I THINK I have to have good CRY....OK all Better...
I try to speak with my pocket book, if I have to. It usually works better.. Still looking for an SPL-05 with all the whistles and bells. I think that will shut me up for a while..:-)
If one were to draw a Venn diagram, you'd see overlaps on those who spout political beliefs, those who counter, and those who can't abide by that so they delete posts. Pretty simple. Either it goes both ways or is doesn't.....for everyone......all the time.
Politics and economy cannot be described by a Venn diagram even here and even for describing only the people here...When we can describe politics with a Venn diagram it is an ominous sign indeed, resembling to the guy painting himself in the corner of his balcony without an escape route...the 2 parties alternative in north America and in some other part of the world resemble charybde and scyllas alternatives....It was not mean to be that way in the beginning, but to be a division of political work akin to breathing movements on the social body....It is no more like that at all....
Asking people to take a definitive side once and for all is like asking someone to paint himself in a corner.... Who is so fool to do it for himself to begins with?
Saying that people has no choices except these 2 one is very simplistic....
It remind me in audio of the useless war between digital and analog, or tubes and processors, or other apparent "superior" warring alternatives... In reality the 2 are needed to begin an understanding and an improving audio... In the same way left and rightwing positions are need together to understand a reality more complex than these 2 visions, even when they must work together...( war, pandemics, and also day to day efficient poitical work)
Politics to be real, like an ethical dialogue, suppose a "collaboration" for example between 2 parties in relation to an external reality participated by the 2 parties.... But if there is no more a common reality agreed upon by the 2 parties, there is war and no dialogue is possible...No political concrete effective solution is possible but only extremist ideology pertaining to one or the other party, when winning is more important than the search for truth...
Samething for economy, when the main part of the economical activity has no link at all with reality (material day to day economical trivial activities has no link nowadays with Wall Street).
Then understanding reality nowadays is impossible if we divided reality from the 2 parties sides, except to make useless Venn diagram...
I am afraid that thinking is necessary not more sophisticated cataloguing of anything with the 2 parties ideology....
I then suggest to ban any political militant partying opinions from the audio forum, except non partisan remarks in real politics....And nowadays real politics is not translatable no more in only left or only right simplistic scheme and games....
This lost of reality is the tragedy of our times.....
Politics is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status. The academic study of politics is referred to as political science.Wikipedia
Nope. It's not at all how you pretend it to be. Politics and economics are so intertwined that particular economic models like capitalism are constantly conflated with politics, and for good reason. You can't have one without the other.
The conflating of economy and politics is precisely what the 2 worst ideology of the last century has in common....Reducing economy to politics of the worst kind, or reducing politics to economy of the worst kind is the same blindful road to autodestruction in opposite ways....
Any sane and sound mind must create the distinctive concepts that pertains and defines the 2, politic and economy, in their qualitative complementary dimensions of the healthy working social body...
More and more conflating between them of the left or of the right kind is a road to catastrophy by lost of reality in opposite ways but toward the same autodestruction....
What do we loose in loosing the reality? Not only reality itself but also we loose our own creative mind....
One can always discuss something in a vacuum for academic purposes but there’s always the overlap. One can even go so far as to imagine that they truly are separate, but they ain’t. Both inform each other. Your take is way too esoteric and abstract so as to not translate back into reality.
Back in the day when one took that course in college on English Literature, there was only one book you got and it was Norton’s History of English Lit, vols.I & II. Not only did one read the writings of the time but one had to bust one’s butt with the politics and economies of the time, as well as learn to read and speak Old English; to read it in it’s original text.
Can’t have one without the other. They all act upon and influence each other at a constant though differing rate.
Does anyone think that frog they dissected in lab in any way amounted to the real thing?
Distinguishing something is not the same as separating something....Distinguishing the principle that must define real economy is not separating it from politic, and distinguishing politic from economy is not separating politic from economy....It is on the contrary linking the 2 in a reality where the 2 are working together and not warring....
Distinguishing without separating is call thinking...
If you say that this is academic thinking about the wings of angel, this is precisely killing the working creative brain ....I dont think that left politic and right politic has anything to do with reality nowadays....They dont work together anymore.... They are out of reality in their own bubble....
And there is something in a society more important than politic and economy in a sense, this is the spiritual principle linked to education for example....Education cannot be submissive to economy or politic....The principle linked to education are fundamental and absolutely not reducible to economy or politic in any ways....
But i will not annoy anyone and will not go further.... I apologize for my "academic" endeavour.... But thinking is "academic" only in non thinking circle by the way or in bad "academic" circles of the right or of the left kind....
It seems i am too esoteric also even in audio, because i think with experiments by myself.... :)
Just a word about the dissection of a frog, in a left or in a rightwing way, my thinking is precisely about what is the real frog? And my answer is the real frog is not like those who dissect it or use its corpse pretend it is or must be ....We can compare the triple metabolism of a real living frog with the principle governing his triple metabolism with the three principles governing a living society....
I have had a couple of posts removed in the past two years. Both mentioned that certain companies manufacture their components in factories owned directly by the Chinese government. I wasn't critical of the western companies who do this, only supplying the information for those of us that might care about such things.It is one of a few subjects that are often taboo to discuss both in forums and in the audiophile print media.
22 posts and you insult already , nevermind the reason, 2 peoples, nevermind their posts content...
You are a rare bird....Congratulations!
I suggest to you to read about NDE and Dr. Eben Alexender a neurologist... You may learn something and not about audio tough....If you dont read book his conferences are in youtube....Fascinating stuff.....
I apologize for my answer to your post but i hate those who choose collectively designed victim or easy target when they enter in a bar or in a new job or a new forum....Hating is stupid yes, but i am not perfect....
It remind me scapegoating in the schoolyard.....( i was not the victim but i was not in the effervescent crowd either)
This forums value and purpose is to discuss music and the equipment that reproduces it, if the moderators allow the subject to stray to far afield from that purpose then it's value has been diminished. This arena is not the public square where any idiot can scream at the top of his voice his displeasure on any subject and when I see conspiracy theory nonsense and links to sites that promote them you can bet I'm banging on the report flag.
Moreover it's not an arena "... where any idiot can scream at the top of his voice his displeasure on any.. " 'posts' that he or she disapproves of by quickly fingering the report option, especially in light of:
@unsound
... It seems as though the initial accusations are rewarded, before confirmation of the veracity of the allegations being made.
That's the main contention, but indeed a fine line to walk sometimes by the moderators judging whether to close a post/thread or not. My initial gripe was seeing threads going by the wayside when valid questions were there to be further explored (and not knowing whether the issue was the poster who initiated the thread or whether the subject matter rubbed someone the wrong way - it may even have been both), not least the deletions that followed where I inquired into these matters of reporting too easily/frequently (and following their calls with deletions). That's why I'm happy to see this thread re-surfaced.
@northman --
Also, no one's free speech is imperiled by questioning why this thread was posted in the *speakers* forum (unless it's a subtle bit of etymological fun).
Context; my first reaction was the deletion of a thread on speaker improvement (or not) these last 20 years, and hence in light of what followed it seemed only natural to initiate this thread on this particular forum section so to involve those connected in these followings.
So, no "etymological fun" but rather a natural consequence of what unspooled here.
@tuberculin --
Does that include @millercarbon and @kenjit? I notice their usual nonsense is missing in this thread.
@mahgister - this is my 5th handle. I have been here for years. I read and learn, I don't post or take pride in the number of times I post. If I have something to say, whatever, I will say it. Don't like it? Don't read it. It's a free country last I checked.
No one said anything about "post count", mahgister referred to post content. I agree, no need to to be that way. Like you said they haven't even said anything... Better yet, just skip their contributions and you look past them.. I think that is the point of the whole thread...
To be or not to be "a report person" or NOT... Not who you don't care to read after... Am I missing something.. I've NEVER seen kenjit, speak foul of another member. MC just calls it the way he see's it.. Just a Blunt ass person... My Granny would say, "haughty is only if it's not true, then it's a lie, if it is he's proud of his hard work". and should be.... He shares his little discoveries.., that's good...
kenjit LOL, he just want's to see measurements, and oval speaker cabinets... Kmini and KMAXYs are on the way... :-)
Aimed at you? Aimed at one of your many "handles" ? Poor little thing, i apologize to anybody behind the "handle" indeed....You never aimed first probably....And probably this kenjit, or this millercarbon are like you said they are, like all those you will name, especially those with only one "handle"....
Dear @oldhvymec, above is the first line of his post aimed at me. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And rightly so.. But I didn’t think their contributions, were or are "nonsense", your’s are... That is my point... At least they contribute.
YOU Sir, complain about their contribution. One is opinionated, yours is just a blanket character attack, just an open ended, bla bla bla..... And no I prefer to roll my own, thank you very much... No pipe sticking here or sticking it my pipe either...
But the point is that you can yell fire in a crowded room provided these people are "those" types that havent responded favorably to the social conditioning du jour.
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