Pulsars and the Mythical Armchair Speaker Maker


There’s another thread going about Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers which I did not want to derail, but it is showing up some common logical fallacies and dead ends I wanted to talk about.


As anyone who has read my posts knows, I’m a huge proponent of DIY for speakers and cables especially. Not that I think you should only go with DIY but because the more audiophiles who can build their own we have in the community the less snake oil gets spread around as fact and there’s less worshipping of the price tag as the almighty determiner of speaker performance.


The myth I want to talk about is kind of related. It is the idea that we should value speakers based purely on driver cost. JA’s Pulsars suffer from this because they seem to use off the shelf components, in very nice cabinets, with perfectly executed crossovers. The thing that I don’t understand are buyers who look at driver cost, and say "well, these speakers should cost no more than x amount, so I’m not buying them... "


I call hogwash. Speakers are more than a collection of parts. They are curated components brought together by a designer and manufacturer. Those same people who are likely to engage in this behavior:

  • Can’t actually design a speaker themselves
  • Would NEVER build a DIY speaker even as a complete kit because it doesn’t have a brand, nor would they buy an assembled DIY speaker.
  • Would probably go with a speaker with in-house drivers which have an even higher markup
  • May not have very good ears anyway


My point is, knowing the price of the parts does not make you at all qualified to judge what the final price should be. That is, fairly, in the hands of the market, and it doesn’t actually make you a better listener or more informed buyer. I would argue you end up buying speakers for brands with even more of a markup and more likely to have questionable performance.


It’s perfectly reasonable for a manufacturer to charge for parts, and skill. So, yes, talking tech and drivers and crossover components is always fun, but please stop evaluating the price of finished goods until you’ve attempted at least designing one pair yourself.

And again, DIY is a lot of fun, and if you want to go that way, you should, but let’s not denigrate high value, high quality manufacturers and delers by reducing them to part assemblers any more than you'd judge a restaurant based on the cost per pound of chicken.


Thank you,

E
erik_squires

Showing 16 responses by kenjit

Some people find overpriced restaurant meals or expensive clothing objectionable. Why should overpriced high end speakers be any different?

Speaker design is not magical. All you need is a very rigid sturdy mdf box. Mdf is a very cheap material. Buy the best drivers you can afford and stick them in the box. As for the crossover, that is much easier to do now than it used to be due to the availability of dsp crossovers like hypex.

Most commercial speakers are actually worse than diy since they use passive crossovers that have no advantages over active. 

The only advantage you get from commercial ones is the glossy finish which has no effect on the sound but is used to justify the cost.

if we dont stop buying these overpriced toys, the manufacturers will happily continue raising their prices.






@millercarbon 

he couldn't even hear any difference between these two interconnects.

thats because there is no difference between interconnects. Any difference you think you hear is imaginary .


Guys like Jeff Joseph have a talent to create great sounding speakers that can work in a lot of environments, with a lot of sources, amplification and with a lot of different music.  

No they dont. Commercial speakers do not satisfy every audiophile. Thats why there are dozens of choices
why should I do it for far less money if other manufacturers are charging such high prices? 

I have not heard the pulsars no. 

The question is why dont more audiophiles try doing it diy?

its not exactly a piece of cake but you can save alot of money in the end. 


all speakers diy or not are highly room dependent. Whats special about the pulsar that makes it less room dependent?
Also they seem to never take into account things like returns, labor, equipment costs, rent, utility bills, and other costs that are more industry specific. In the case of a speaker company perhaps providing samples for reviewers.

It’s not just "drivers stuffed in a box" not matter how you slice it

plenty of hifi companies do cheap speakers. They too have to pay rent, utility bills, marketing and all the rest of it.

So why cant you take a mid priced speaker costing say $500 a pair and instead of using drivers that cost $50 a piece, use state of the art drivers costing $300 a piece? that would still only be $250 more per driver which means $1000 more than the basic cost of $500.
It doesnt come to $10,000 does it?
Many of these high end speakers are nothing more than basic mdf cabinets using higher quality drivers.
Even the ones that dont use mdf, are not demonstrably vastly superior to mdf. A cheap speaker uses no brace whereas a more expensive speaker uses a single brace. So for a tiny bit of mdf youre paying thousands of dollars more. Every speaker should be braced. It costs nothing to add a piece of mdf inside the cabinet during assembling.



I present to you all my SNR-1. My main daily speakers.
where are the measurements? its easy to make a nice looking box but thats not what matters. 

I could buy similar drivers to the pulsars, stuff them in a box, tinker with the crossover at a fraction of the cost. Doing an active crossover would provide quicker and better results.I could save myself further time and money by doing without the high quality finish.

Where the extra money goes if you buy the commercial version is irrelevant. It either ends up as profit or rent or whatever but we know that most of the money you pay doesnt go into the speaker youre buying. Why pay more when you can get better results for less? Nobody has access to these companies financal records anyway so who knows where the money goes and how much they pay for parts? 






@erik_squires 

i dont see any measurements.

You won't just be allowed to critique until I've seen you demonstrate reasonable speaker acumen.


That is exactly the point I'm refuting. It does NOT require speaker acumen. There is no such thing. Every speaker designer has their own belief about the best way to do things. Sometimes diametrically opposed. Every speaker sounds different. Often vastly different. 

If I was to do a diy speaker i would get somebody to do the box. It wouldnt cost thousands of dollars though. The crossover would be dsp. Passive is not only more difficult but the results are worse. Are you looking for the best performance with least effort and cost or do you enjoy spending more money than necessary?




Imagine being a plumber, and only being allowed to charge for the pipes. What a ridiculous setup.
plumbers are well known for overcharging. DIY will save you money with plumbing too. But lets stick to discussing speakers.
Ascend Acoustics sells a 2-way monitor with the Seas flagship diamond tweeter and Excel woofer and sells it for less than the retail price of the Pulsars

That seems to contradict what was said earlier by @soix 

A manufacturer who sells through a dealer network needs to charge about 4x (or even more) the cost of the product to cover his fixed and variable costs and still make a decent profit.

Kenjit if a speaker retails for $8k how much should a designer have wrapped up in parts cost to make it a value in your opinion?

If you consider the cost of buying the drivers, paying somebody to do the box and the cost of dsp amps, thats an indication of the approximate cost. 
But anyway, there absolutely is some voodoo magic in the Pulsar -- it’s the infinite slope crossover.
stereophile measured the pulsars. The measurements look like its 2nd order. Not infinite
The performance of a speaker depends on the parts. All things being equal, better drivers gives more power handling more dynamics less distortion and more detail. If youre paying 8000 bucks on a pair of speakers which uses drivers costing a couple hundred bucks then obviously most of the money is not going into the product youre buying. Youre getting less bang per buck.

All the excuses cited about the rent, running costs is hogwash. I want my money being used maximally on the product not on running costs, which doesnt benefit me. Its funny how nobody has mentioned greed and profit as if theyre not factors that determine the price. If I pay 8000 bucks then i want my moneys worth. if not, its overpriced simple as that.

Its a fallacy that buying a commercial speaker means its designed by an expert that knows what theyre doing. Hogwash. They dont know how much baffle step compensation is needed or preferred they dont know whether you prefer an infinity slope or linkwitz riley or bessel, theyre just guessing. Theyre just designing a product that appeals to as many audiophiles as possible to maximise sales.
Diy is one way to avoid all that and design a speaker that is customised to YOUR preferences, room acoustics and music. Saving money is a byproduct.











youre asking the wrong person. Running a business whether its selling steak or speakers is about profit however my goal is not profit its perfect sound. 
@woodrum you need to try active. To do a dozen passive crossovers would require dozens of parts and endless soldering.
with active you can do it all from your armchair.