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Project Debut III vs. Music Hall MMF 5?

Hello All,

I am setting up my first turntable. I’m looking to spend $600 - $1,200 all told between a turntable, phono preamp, cartridge, etc. preamp (My receiver, a NAD 720 bee, does not have a phono preamp).

I am considering the “Project Debut III” ($299) with the “Tube Box SE” ($549) or “Tube Box II” ($349) this was the set-up recommended to me by what seems like an excellent hi-fi shop in Boston with a very knowledgeable staff. However, the Project Debut III was the only table they had in my price range.

A friend of mine has the Music Hall MMF 7, which sounds amazing to me but is out of my price range. I was told that Music Hall and Project are made by the same people or in the same factory, or something like that, so I’m wondering if the Music Hall tables are basically the same family of turntable as the Project but a step up in quality. I would be happy to pay a little more for a table like the music hall mmf 5 ($629) over the Project, but have not had the chance to listen to listen and compare tables.

So, will the extra $300+ for the MMF 5 mean much better sound than the Project Debut III)? If so, I am happy to pay it. If I go with the Project, does it make sense to spend more on a phono pre-amp (the Tube Box SE or Tube Box II) than the actual turntable?

Since purchasing a semi decent sound system a few months ago I can’t stop listening to my collection of recordings. What a difference! I had no idea. I’m looking forward to starting in on the vinyl. Thanks for your advice.

-Bruno
bruno1

Showing 6 responses by johnnyb53

johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 

06-06-07: Genesis168
I believe I can get a used OMP10 for a good price..but the 40 stylus...WOW! @$299. Was the OMP10 better than what was there?
Well, you wouldn't need to upgrade all the way to the 40 to get a noticeable improvement. The OM 20 stylus upgrades from bonded elliptical of the OM 10 to nude elliptical at about $99. The OM 30 stylus is a fine line and the OM 30 is a Fritz-Geiger.

So they're incremental and all about $100 apart in price. Absolute Sound lists both the OM 20 and OM 30 as very nice sounding over-achievers.

Any of them would be a step up (or more) from what's typically associated with a P-mount cartridge.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
I have a Technics SL1210 and listen to a fair amount of classical music. Once the cartridges broke in and I put the TT on an isolation platform, I've been very pleased with this TT for classical. It in fact excels in acoustic music, whether folk, pop, jazz, or classical. Right now I switch back and forth between a Shure M97xE and Ortofon OM 10, with an general preference for the Shure. Their mass & compliances are both good matches for the tonearm.

If you add the KAB fluid damper to the SL12x0 tonearm, word is that it then accommodates a wider range of cartridges. Various Technics owners on this forum have spoken well of the Audio Technica AT440ml, Shure, Ortofon OM series, and Denon DL110, DL160, and 103 cartridges.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
How about a Rega P2 ($500) with Bellari VP129 preamp ($249) or the Vincent phono stage (only $149 from http://www.audioadvisor.com? The Regas have an enviable track record for reliability and long-term presence in the market.

Project and Music Hall TTs are both made in the Project factory in the Czech Republic, but by different designers and to different specifications. I believe they both share the Project tonearms, however. The Project Debut is priced about the same as the Music Hall MMF-2 ($300-ish), but you may want to consider another TT rep'd by Music Hall, the Goldring GR1.2. Lists at $450, but can often be found for a bit less.

For the same price range, however, you can get a Technics SL1200 or SL1210 with much better speed and pitch accuracy, build quality, rigidity, materials, and ergonomics. Don't believe the high-end kool-aid about DD being noisy. The Technics DDs are really quiet. The tonearm is old school (S-shaped w/detachable universal headshell), but is rugged, built to microscopically close tolerances, and can be further improved with an after-market fluid damper.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 

05-22-07: Mechans
Agree that Direct drive is not noisy In fact the real differences I can hear are vanishingly small between very high end TT's and normal people TTs are the isolation from the enviroment. That means a higher mass dampening plinth and solid support and the cartridge choice. ... It is safer to pick a simple SS stage. YMMV. ... I might recommend a good vintage table direct drive and all or a more recent Denon DD with the DL 103.
Sounds like going low output moving coil raises the stakes significantly, making vibration isolation, noise from all sources, and hum-free gain critical. So at the price Bruno's talking about, it's simpler with a higher rate of success to go with high output mc or mm with a good phono stage for that level of gain.

The Denon 500 DD or a Technics SL 12x0 is a great place to start, as they all have very solid and rigid plinths, slick ergonomics, rugged build quality, and close tolerances. A detachable headshell is nice to have too, especially for beginners.

The Technics definitely benefits from some sort of isolation platform, but this can be done very cheaply with an Ikea butcher block cutting board ($25) and some Vibrapods or Mapleshade Iso-Blocks ($24/set of 4 for either).

For a well-regarded SS phono stage, you could go with a Creek OBH-18 ($250), Parasound V-Phono ($150), NAD ($129), Cambridge Audio 640P ($189), or Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE ($399). Of these the NAD and Cambridge do LOMC. The next model up Creek (OBH-15) also does MC at $450.

You'd need an MC pre-amp for the Denon 103. OTOH, you could get one of the good MM stages and use a Denon DL110 or DL160. Teaming one of those Denons with the Slee should create an interesting soundstage.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 

05-29-07: Bruno1
...Can anyone summarize the differences between the differences between the different models in the SL 1200 - 1210 line?
The SL1200 Mk2 and Mk5 are very similar; the differences are that the Mk2 has clicking detents in the pitch control slider whereas the Mk5 does not, but adds a Reset button to bring the speed back to 33-1/3 or 45 rpm. The Mk5 also has an easy-to-access and adjust electronic brake so the platter stops very quickly after you press the Stop button.

I think the fundamental difference between SL 1200's and SL1210's is that the 1210's are set for either 110 or 220 VAC operation.

The SL1210 M5G "Grandmaster" has upgraded tonearm/interconnect wire. KABUSA says: "M5G's and GLD's feature improved tonearm wand and interconnect wiring. The result is better soundstage detail and focus."

The M5G also has a dual-range pitch control--+/- 8% and +/- 16% with a reset button. I'm not sure but I think the dual range also means it has a more sophisticated speed controller.

Finally, the M5G has a slightly different tonearm with an adjustable set screw which is primarily for reducing skipping during scratching. The GLD is identical to the M5G except that the hardware is gold-plated.

Although the tonearm set screw evidently has no value to audiophiles, I bought the M5G for the upgraded tonearm wiring and speed control. If I had been ordering from KABUSA I would probably have opted for an SL 1200 Mk2 with his $169 Cardas tonearm rewire, but I was on a limited budget and managed to score an M5G from a local Guitar Center for $500.

The
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
I don't know what you mean by "speaker heads" jumping. Do you mean the woofer cones make large excursions?

What cartridge are you using? Maybe you have a bit of a cartridge/tonearm mismatch, or need some vibration isolation for the turntable. What's it sitting on?

If my experience is any indicator, you will get a noticeable improvement by switching from the stock headshell to a Sumiko.

For cartridge I'm using a Denon DL-160 and most of my used LPs are quiet. In fact, it plays records I knew to be noisy much quieter. I believe it has to do with the stylus shape and also setup.

Clean your old records at least with a Discwasher or the Audio Technica system and see what you get. You may also lower record noise experimenting with turntable mats and the tonearm's vertical tracking angle (VTA).
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