problems with 24 bit cd players


i am searching for a cd player--preferably one with tubes.

i have auditioned a number of them and something is wrong. i perceive a dip in the 100 to 200hz region and a slight peak in the upper mids/lower treble region.

is it possible that one can buy a current production player which is 20 bit and no up sampling ?

i haven't found any, nor am i looking for a dac, although i am aware that there exists non-upsampling dacs.
mrtennis
Why 20 bit and not 24? You can't get from the native 16 bit format of the CD to 20 or 24 bits without some type of data manipulation; some type of sampling/conversion.
i have auditioned a number of them and something is wrong. i perceive a dip in the 100 to 200hz region and a slight peak in the upper mids/lower treble region.

What is your reference? Have you made calibrated microphone tests of what is wrong?

is it possible that one can buy a current production player which is 20 bit and no up sampling ?

Sampling is a time based thing...higher sample rates or up/over sampling can make output filters simpler to design.
I suspect that the designers are simply using a 24 bit/96 Khz DAC and are upsampling the CD data...you can't get 24 bit dynamic range from redbook 16 bits (physically impossible unless some kind of "expander" algorithm is used and this introduces distortion) and therefore I imagine the extra 8 bits are not used. (So don't worry about the extra bits as they are irrelevant in the case of redbook CD)
Mrtennis, I am using a 24 bit Quad cdp-2 and I find just the opposite, a peak in mid-bass and a dip in upper mids. You probably have tried it already.
hi rotarius:

i own this player. i will sell it shortly. it too is lacking in the upper/basss/lower mid range and has too much energy in the upper mids/lower treble. i think 24/192 chips have problems. they present music in a manner i would characterize as "hyper-detailed". i believe a tubed gain or output stage can somewhat offset the effect of the chip, but selecting an appropriate capacitor is also necessary.

i am having a tough time finding a current production player.
YBA claimed for a long time that 24-bit was detrimental to musicality and their CDP were dual 18-bit only, against the marketing hype. They moved to 24-bit now but if you hear dips and what to move away from 24-bits, get a used YBA CD1 or 2 or 3 Alpha and enjoy the bitless effort!
MrT,

There also exist non-oversampling single box CD players. The is a version of the Consonance called "Linear" which is non-OS. I think there is also a non-OS player from Audionote.

How about the tube output player from Granite Audio? I think it is a 20 bit unit, but I'm not sure of that.

Enjoy,

TIC
I would agree with "hyper detailed" and if that is not to your liking I suggest a non over sampled player is your best bet. I'm not sure about one box players but why not a DAC? I'm not as familiar with the players but there are quite a few DACs. Check my system for one approach.
Have you tried the Paradisea Non Oversampling DAC (or any other NON OS DAC). If not, why?
have you tried Audio Research CD3MkII in your system?
Or better yet CD7?
hi tvad:

i prefer not to purchase a separate dac and transport.

are the non over sampling dacs tube based and 20 bit ? i already listened to an ack! dac and scott nixon tube dac. i was not impressed with either.

i suppose if i heard a dac/transport combination that was sufficiently pleasantly euphonic i might reconsider my aversion to a dac.
So what is your aversion to a DAC?

You are misguided to be hung up on an output tube. The digital to analog portion has to be solid state. You can add a tube to the output for bufferring and/or to add some gain and/or to distort the signal in some way to make it more "tubey," but you certainly don't need a tube to have a fine sounding player or DAC.

And why are you hung up on 20 bits. By definition it can't be anything other than 16 bits and be NonOS. All NonOS players/DACS are 16 bit. Wavelength, Altmann, Scott Nixon, Paradesia, etc. are all 16 bit.
Mr. Tennis - knowing you don't have a preference for a DAC, I'll still throw one out there. The Monarchy M24 uses a 20-bit DAC chip (for Redbook). You might want to look at the review Lynn Olson did in Positive Feedback (see link below) or for a more technical discussion of non-os DAC chips and why Lynn feels the M24 20-bit technology is superior, the other link will take you to that article. I own a couple non-os DACs and like them very much, but upon hearing the M24, which I now own, I was very impressed. It also features a tube output stage (not a buffer) and can double as a preamp (which can be bypassed if you only want to use it as a DAC). I put in some Siemens NOS tubes and the DAC really sings.

BTW - if I recall you're in SoCal. If you want to audition an M24 I'd be happy to let you hear mine in your system.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/monarchy_m24.htm

http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/?p=80#more-80
Could the "problem" be traced to your choice of speakers?? Magnepans are not known for mid-bass prowness nor relaxed high frequencies.
The Paradisea DAC is a small unit. As I recall, it's about 8"x5"x1 1/2". It'll fit just about anywhere including on top of your present CD player (does it have a digital output?).

It produces a nice euphonic sound, and at $500 it's relatively inexpensive.
Herman
The digital to analog portion has to be solid state
Why? Partly, for sure, but why all the way? I wouldn't personally see any reason to insert tubes in there -- but couldn't you construct a tube thingy if it tickled your fancy?
my reference cd player is the audionote cd 2 from 1994. it takes a 12 volt tube. i am using a ge 5751 blackplate. i have compared many cd players and none comes close.

yes, some would consider the audionote overly subtractively colored, but whatever deficiencies the magnepan has, the problems which i usually identify--brightness and a lack of warmth are not an issue when the audionote is in my system. i am looking for a cd player which sounds as close as possible to the audionote.

with respect to the paradisea dac, will an oppo cd player as transport suffice to produce the euphonic presentation that supposedly is its character ?
with respect to the paradisea dac, will an oppo cd player as transport suffice to produce the euphonic presentation that supposedly is its character ?
Mrtennis (Threads | Answers)
I would think so, but offering an opinion that will apply to your preferences is an impossibly steep and slippery slope. Only trying the combo in your system will provide the answer. It'd be a nearly zero sum experiment as the Oppo is available with a 30 day return, and the Paradisea is in fairly strong demand, so resale would be pretty good. One might lose a few bucks on the Paradisea, but not too much.

Why don't you purchase a current production Audionote CD3 player? There's a used one available now. If you've explained why a CD3 is not under consideration, then I missed the reason.
Greg, the digital to analog conversion is done with an intergrated circuit. Digital goes into the chip and an analog signal comes out. It is all done inside the chip.

digital signal in ------ chip -------- analog output

You can add tubes at that point but the conversion is done.

Mr. Tennis, why are you looking for a player that is as close as posssible to the Audio Note? If you revere this player and need another one just buy another Audio Note. If you are as thrilled as you seem to be and only hope to come close to it's performance why would you want to replace it? This looks like yet another Mr. Tennis troll.
FWIW Herman (and others), I suspect that MrT's search for a unique product, one with a tonal response that is an anethema to modern audiophile ears, is nothing more or less than the creation of a 'soap box' for him to stand on while he shouts for attention. I find it, alternatively, amusing and boring. :-)
the reason i am not interested in a current production audio note is that it is not 20 bit, does not use a 12 volt tube and does not sound like the audio note cd2.

the reason i am not looking for a cd2 is its age and the chance that the transport , i.e., laser will need replacement. my player is showing signs of wear and has tracking problems. i am looking for a current production cd player that comes as close as possible to the audio note. i don't expect to obtain a carbon copy. if the best i can find is a "neutral" player, i will try to create the sound i am looking for in other ways.

newbee, i respect your right to have an opinion.

i am gratified that you are amused. i too am often amused when reading posts. sometimes real life is funnier than what's on tv. i have a feeling there are some latent comedy writers lurking in these posts.
Likely less expensive to replace the laser assembly on the CD2 than buying a new player.

Also the following is copied from the Audio Note CD2.1x owner's manual:
18 Bit 44.1/48/96KHz compatible multi Bit converter chip, the 1xoversampling system will truncate the information at 20, 22 and 24Bits, which is very much milder form of information loss than that introduced by traditional over sampling and digital filtering etc.

The CD2.1x uses an 18 bit chip that truncates the information to 20, 22 and 24 bits. The info you post regarding 20 bit and 24 bit as it relates to the CD2 appears to diverge from that published in the CD2.1x manual.

Perhaps a 20 bit player is not what you seek after all...

FWIW, the Paradisea DAC utilizes a TDA1545A chip that is 16 bit.
hi tvad:

you are technically correct about the components of the audio note. i tend to get imprecise. i am looking for a non upsampling less than 24 bit cd player.

i have been looking into the paradisea dac. it may or may not be appropriate. i am not sure about how transport sensitive it is as well as the extent to which the dac is affected by changes in digital cable. anyway, it is good to have a second digital source.
the reason i am not looking for a cd2 is its age and the chance that the transport , i.e., laser will need replacement. my player is showing signs of wear and has tracking problems
It's easy and inexpesnive to replace a laser -- even the whole transport mechanism if necessary. I assume you've considered this -- but just in case? You really don't need to change the whole product...
i am looking for a non upsampling less than 24 bit cd player

Do my other posts not show up? Why do you keep saying that? That statement makes no sense. If it is non upsampling and non oversampling IT IS 16 BITS !!!!!! Period. end of story. If it has more than 16 bits it is doing some type of sampling to create the extra bits.

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

OK, I feel better now.
Now, now, Herman:)
hi herman:

hi herman, you are railing against redundancy. it would have been suffiecient to say:

i am looking for an 18 or 16 bit player. i apologize for unnecessary words.
i am looking for an 18 or 16 bit player. i apologize for unnecessary words.

Ok, I give up since you can't seem to grasp the concept. I am not railing against redundancy, I am railing against something that is impossible.

16 bits is the native format. Anything greater involves sampling.

17 bits involves sampling
18 bits involves sampling
19 bits involves sampling
20 bits involves sampling
21 bits involves sampling
22 bits involves sampling
23 bits involves sampling
and so on

If you are looking for a player that does not sample then you are looking for a 16 bit player, not an "18 or 16 bit player," which by the way is different than your first impossible request.

is it possible that one can buy a current production player which is 20 bit and no up sampling ?

I need to get a life.
>>I need to get a life<<

Interesting you have to explain the concept to somebody who claims to be a reviewer and should know.

Or not.