@P05129
Regardless of the color of the sound, a cable should be able to replicate all notes. In this system I have had a very wide upgrade path:
AudioQuest Victoria
AudioQuest Yosemite
Synergistic Research Foundation
Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 1
Lavricables Grand
Each upgrade presented changes to the quality of the sound for the better. Be it holography, clarity, musicality and even color. These have been Copper and Silver and both together. In this system, the all silver wins. It is very clinical, but there is no loss of "warmth" that I can tell. In fact, this latest cable upgrades out of those descriptors. Music sounds real. Not live, just real.
Let me give you an example.
On The Dave Brubeck Quartet's album "Time Out." Track Two 'Strange Meadow Lark'. All previous cables were unable to replicate the C8 "tink" at the end of the piano riff. It would distort, as if the mic's sensitivity was set too high. Now, it isn't just that this note now plays, it plays realistically with the expected attack and decay of piano.
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@juanmanuelfangioii
I may not be completely accurate with the precise numbers of MSRP for 2022, but I know I am not wrong that markup percentage on goods is different state by state. California and New York being the highest in the nation.
Whether you agree or not, you can keep your thinly veiled Ad Hominems to yourself.
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@erik_squires
No one is ever going to agree with what I am doing on this system, because there appears to be a propogandic rule that one cannot purchase cables worth more than the system they are attached to. As if speakers and systems have some built-in feature where it actively reduces performance past a certain point. 🙄 This entire theory is based solely on the notion of monetary returns. I would hasten to say that if one is more worried about how much each song costs rather than how good each song sounds, then I would accuse that person of not truly enjoying music.
That said, I am also not putting this system in an ideal room. Although, I have made quite a few room treatments, mostly echo absorption, vibration control and the mitigation of EMI and RFI in the room.
This all started with making my workstation have good sound, since that is where I will be 9 hours a day into the foreseeable future.
I had the expendable cash and credit line...so....why not answer all my unanswerable audio questions. All I am doing is providing testimony on how it worked out for me and my system. You're welcome to see all the equipment in my Virtual System.
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@russbutton In regards to carnival show attractions, yes. There were no such things as audio cables in his day. So, whatever you are implying, makes you equally wrong.
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@sns
I disagree. Discussions on cables are very informative and have on many occasions helped me decide what cables are best or what cables exist for my particular application.
I have built several cables in my system but the DIY knowledge that exists on the internet is very limited and all I have found seem to focus on basic geometry. Such as a basic twist of two to three conductors and on occasion employ an external wrap of the "ground cable" over the main bulk of conductors. In addition to this, the quality of materials available for DIY are generally not the super-high end you can find in higher tier cables offered by premium cable manufacturers. For example, you can’t order solid, pure silver cables that are encased in Teflon dielectric. Also, connectors you buy have to be 3rd party. I know of no one who owns an RCA, Stereo-Pin or XLR mold where they can forge their own solid copper or silver connectors or have the tech to plate such connectors. So, even if one makes their own cable, they are still using materials someone else designed. For example, you cannot DIY a cable using the geometry found in Shunyata Research’s higher end power cables. Their cables use two completely different formats in the positive/negative conductors. One conductor is a standard, straight silver bundle...but...the 2nd conductor is a thick, concentric circular stack of braided/meshed copper that surrounds the silver conductor. Like a tube. There are various Teflon dielectrics and other materials used to separate and shield. There is just no way to purchase these parts and make it. You’d have to buy Teflon coated silver and then braid the copper yourself and stack it. No one has that kind of time.
Where it concerns filters, you’d need to understand the mathematical formulas used to measure the electric flow of the cable you made, based on how well it conducts and how long it is. Then you’d need to attach a filter that was created to specifically affect those measurements. That’s hard to do on one’s own. You can use pre-fabricated components, but you certainly aren’t going to forge your own Ferrite cores. So you have to hope someone already makes a filter that affects the specific electric measurements of your cable.
"How does one ascertain value of any cable for their particular system from this chaos?"
I start with materials. Having spent 30 years buying various cables to use on various systems, I have narrowed down what materials work best and what their function on sound is. If you want a warmer sound with rolled off high frequencies, go with copper cable that uses Polyethylene (PE) as a dielectric. If you want ultimate levels of clarity and clinical accuracy, get silver conductors that use Teflon or Flurocarbon as a dielectric. Beyond materials, it’s geometry, filters, and active systems.
It’s not unlike modifying a car for speed. You can buy a Lamborghini, which was designed for speed and looks beautiful. You needn’t do anything else. OR, you can buy a cheap stock car and modify it with Stage 6 turbo, cam shafts, short gears, direct fuel injectors, cold air intakes, body kits, NOS kits, and various other mods to make that car go as fast if not faster than the Lamborghini. Some like the challenge of modifying a slower car, others prefer the status of owning an Italian sports car.
To each their own. Discussion is perfectly fine. Belittlement and shaming is not.
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@sns
No one directly accused you of shaming and belittlement. I made a statement that having a discussion about cables is perfectly fine but belittlement and shaming isn't. It wasn't aimed at you, or I would have said so. However, there have been plenty on this thread that have.
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@wesheadley
"Does a $5,000 cable sound better than a $500 cable? Nope."
Yup. In this particular case, it's absolutely true. The specs are ever better. Also, I have proof. The $1000 cable was unable to reproduce a specific note that this cable is capable of doing. That for me is more than enough evidence. I even stated which specific materials, what specific song, what specific note. So it can be tested, peer reviewed, the whole shebang.
You honestly think a manufacturer is REQUIRED to price their products based on what they're made of? Like there is some contract that states if you use Silver or Teflon as a dielectric you have to charge a specific amount of money? There's no wiggle room in your theory for a company that is able to get better materials for cheaper and doesn't need to mark up so high to make a profit so they can reach more buyers? Again, this is a difference between a European market and the US market.
Besides, based on what you're saying the audio quality should diminish if I buy a $300,000 amplifier on sale for $20,000. 🙄
This hobby may work the way it works for you, but not for me. I have not had as much success treating this as more expensive = better. What I have had more success with is, Specific Features and Specs = better, no matter what the cost is/was.
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@wesheadley
We get it, you aren't a believer in better cables equals better sound. Duly noted. Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean you're the authority on whether it exists or not.
Sure, it could have been a defective cable...or....it could have been over priced for the materials. Synergistic Research is notoriously secretive about their cable production.
You want to wax specifics on how a cable can't reproduce 20-20K hz? Easy, conductivity. Silver is more conductive than Copper. That is a fact. Signal will travel faster to source on Silver than Copper will. FACT! High frequency travels more efficiently and is reproduced better over Silver. That is why high end video cables use either silver or silver plated copper. That is why high frequency treble replicates better over Silver. Go read the white papers on HDMI specification. See how they had to alter the cable geometry in order to get the speeds needed to sync video and sound. Gee, if all conductive materials are the same and conduct the same, then why did they need to create specific geometry, over a short distance, just to sync audio and video and later to provide more data throughput for 4K and now 8K. "But, that's digital!" Uh huh....a 1 or a 0 over what? Copper. Using what method of travel? Electricity. How does it know what a 1 or a 0 is? Whether an ANALOG signal is either a full square wave or a completely flat wave. What does it do if the square wave has curved edges? It rejects that bit. What if the flat signal ha a slight bump? It rejects that bit. So....if you can ensure that your analog "digital" signals have perfect square waves and perfect flat lines, you can guarantee that there are no rejected bits or errors. So...how do you do that? With better conductive materials, geometry and shielding. It's just plain facts. Whether you agree with it or not.
The truth is, Synergistic Research's cable simply didn't have the materials nor the geometry to best Lavricable's cable. By having Copper conductors touching Silver conductors, the frequencies meld together and diminish Silver's higher conductive rate. Lavricable uses only pure silver. Synergisitic's RCA connector is Silver plated Copper. Labricable's is solid Silver. Lavircable's cable simply conducts better, and faster than Synergistics. That's just a cold hard fact. If Synergistic's cable is defective, it speaks more to their quality control at $1000 than Lavricable's at $500. Either way, *I* win.
Besides, you've really defeated your entire argument. Because you don't believe better cables equals better sound...so it wouldn't matter if $1000 or $100 was spent.
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@wesheadley
Understand that the way "premium" cables are designed, is that the top-most, flag-ship, cable is the literal best materials and geometry that the company can offer. Every model below that is a broken version of the model above it. It isn't "confirmation bias." Conformation bias is a cheap cop-out by suggesting anyone who hears a difference that another is not able to, is lying. It takes the position that the nay-sayer is more correct because they are taking a skeptical stance.
Going back to my OP, I have determine a drastic enough difference in sound quality from a cable I spent $1000.00 on, to a cable I spent $500.00. Where the materials and geometry in the cheaper cable was FAR superior over the more expensive cable. And, the cheaper cable was the flag-ship model, versus the expensive cable barely being the mid-range for that company. I found it interesting that a European company was making a cable this good for so cheap. That's literally the entire point.
Arguing that I couldn't possibly make such a determination is disingenuous, at best. Considering no one on this thread, much less the entire audience on Audiogon, has a setup like mine. With that said, I am not recommending any product to anyone. I am just offering my testimony on my discovery. Either it is interesting to other people or it isn't. I don't feel like I have to justify my setup or audio choices to anyone. Largely because *I* am the only who will be listening to it. However, since these threads are searchable via GOOGLE or BING, it is for posterity and information to the lurker who might stumble upon this thread looking for answers to their audio quandaries. Much like I did when I found this site and have learned a lot from other members and used their input to inform my decisions on audio upgrades to my unique system.
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@wesheadley
What sounds best is always going to be subjective to the listener. What sounds best to me, on this system, is Silver.
What I have discovered, after over 30 years of dealing with cables, is that speed and accuracy of the signal is what is important. How fast can the signal get to the speaker and maintain accuracy. Then the system and speaker itself have to relay that accuracy and speed. Let me give you an example. Your cable sends a series of musical notes to your speaker, but the speaker's driver hadn't finished executing the physical movements required for the series of notes that came before it. As a result it cannot properly execute the remaining notes. This in turn creates distortion, lack of accuracy, and loss of detail, and smeared layering. You can solve this with better engineered speakers or better engineered amps and in some cases better engineered cables.
One way I can describe this, is through explaining the evolution of this system. This system used to have smaller powered speakers. They were a class A/B stereo, linear amp. The rectifiers were small as were the caps. So it was easy and quick to fill the capacitors and get the speed and accuracy required to have the drive complete the necessary movements before the next series of notes; especially with the massive power back end I had at the time. However, it was missing rich mid-bass because the physical size of the bass drivers were too small. So I upgraded to larger powered speakers. This time they are two mono class A/B linear amps and require more power. I wrongfully assumed the overpowered back end I had would be more than enough. I was wrong. It couldn't deliver the same incredible sound as their smaller versions; though I was getting better mid bass. I tried rolling the OEM fuse for a Synergistic Purple Fuse. This didn't solve the problem, but did give me better holography and imaging. Then I upgraded the main sound cable from Synergistic Foundation to Synergistic Atmosphere Lv1. This created more clarity, but it still wasn't at the same level of realism as the previous setup. Then I upgraded the mains power cable from Shunyata Research's Delta to Alpha. That did the trick. The Alpha power cable was more robust and was more than capable of keeping the rectifier open and filling the capacitor so quickly, the system never had any delay in power draw. It could also burst with more power and empty of power much faster and rapidly than the previous power cable. This allowed the speaker's drivers to quickly commit to full movement and be back at the ready for the next series of notes, eliminating any flabbiness. Then I added some DIY Earth ground boxes to the speakers that finally created the sound I was enjoying before on the smaller system. Throughout the life of this system, there were a few songs here and there that didn't sound as good as I have heard them on better systems. Like Chuck Magione's "Feels So Good." On better systems, I have heard the acoustic guitar in the opening more clearly, loudly and with an echo. I was unable to achieve that on this system; at this time. On this configuration of the system, the acoustic guitar sounded distant and its attack and decay of the echo was being cut off. I chalked it up to the limitations of the speakers or the DAC. But that wasn't true.
I won't go into detail on why I decided to move away from Synergistic Research cables; that is a whole other thread I posted. Needless to say, I was suggested Lavricables on that thread and I bought a pair for my headphones. The details this cable revealed were far more than I would have expected. Those details weren't present on my system. So I had the idea of getting the same level of cable for this system to see if those details would emerge. They did and then some. Now, the acoustic guitar on "Feels So Good" is louder, clearer, more up front and has the attack and decay echo I remembered hearing from "better" systems.
I have heard reviews talk about "cold" or "warm" sounds from Silver and Copper respectively. The Lavricable, though made of silver, transcended that description. It doesn't sound "cold" or "warm." It just sounds correct; more realistic, more detailed. That's the sound profile that best fits this system.
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@wesheadley
I admit that the room I have this system in is not very good. I have made some room tweaks, like sound absorbing panels on the walls, the Synergistic Research FEQX4, Synergistic Research Tranquility Basik, DIY cable risers and ISOAcoustic vibration control products on the speakers and subwoofer. All to mitigate this room's "issues."
At present, this setup costs around $10,000. It's not the most expensive setup, but definitely isn't the cheapest. :)
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@sns
I don’t have a pure Silver PC, but the Shunyata Research Alpha cable I am using has a silver core conductor. The geometry is interesting. There is a shielded, insulated 8awg silver conductor in the center. Then it is surrounded by an intricate weave of 8awg copper for the other conductor as an outer shell. Then there is a braided shield for ground. So this system gets the fast current needed for delicate dynamics as well as a strong copper conductor for more robust mid tones, mid bass, and bass.
Unfortunately, Lavricables is unable to make a power cable that uses IEC C7 as a connector. They are unable to acquire a decent IEC C7 plug :(. So sadly, I will never be able to use their awesome PC on this system.
Apparently, the best C7 connector out there is Wattgate’s. As a result I will have to stick with the Kimber Palladian for my powered speakers. Which is all copper. At least it is insulated in Teflon and has a massive noise filter. I cannot complain, it’s a detailed and ultra-quiet PC for the price. :)
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@charles1dad
Awesome! :D I cannot wait to get mine, although I had to settle for the Master line as they couldn't build me a Grand line with a C7 connection.
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@ghdprentice
"The very best I have heard and worst have been silver."
I concur. Synergistic Research Foundation cables were my first foray into all silver cables and they were better than Audioquest's best copper...but Lavricables simply beat their silver. Since Synergistic is incredibly secretive about their conductor size and geometry, there is no real telling what's under the sheath. Lavricables are clear and you see it all. Not that seeing makes it sound better.
My current opinion is that using Teflon as a dielectric insulation is the real secret and second it's geometry.
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