There are DACs and there are combo pre-amp/DACs.
One buys what one needs.
Not sure I see a problem there? |
In general, my only concern about a DAC and pre-amp in a single box would be how well is the pre-amp section shielded from RFI generated by the digital circuits/DAC? In general, I would prefer these in separate boxes separated by space as an insurance policy at a minimum. I would definitley not try to cram a low level phono section in there as well.....
A similar concern with integrated amps is proximity of power amp with transformers, etc. to the pre-amp section, again especially with phono. HEre the issue is more EMI than RFI perhaps, but I would prefer separates here as well to physically separate the two as an insurance policy at minimum. Often, noise levels in circuits can affect the sound quality in subtle ways well before any effects are clearly audible. |
If you have just digital sources there is probably no good technical reason to have a pre-amp. I'm sure there are very good dac with volume controls out there. Maybe to introduce tubes in the pre-amp if a tube sound only fan. |
It makes a lot of sense to bundle preamp and dac these days much like pre-amp and phono pre-amp have been bundled into some pre-amps for years. The fact is digital is the norm now, not phono. So it is a natural thing to do. May not be the best/right solution for all. THat is why there are still separates for purists who care, like me.
True digital integrated amps, like the NAD M2 (all integrated amp functions performed in digital mode except final conversion to analog to drive speakers, though that would likely be done Class D style as well) are the next logical step in the evolution of audio technology and will become more common over time. I would love to try one today and strongly believe this is where things will tend to go over time, and it will all be for the better soundwise as well....
Hey I know that is heresy to a lot of old time analog lovers like myself, but why resist progress? After all , we all love our HD TVS, right? No reason all digital audio cannot be as satisfying, even today. Its the wave of the future. BEst to ride it rather than resist it. |
"It just so happens, my current system (with digital volume control), give me a more body, tone and dynamics than anyting I have ever owned, tubes included. We have the same destination, but just get there with different technology. "
Myself, I would like to, and at this point feel pretty confident that I could, drop my tube pre-amp for a good SS replacement and still get the body, tone dynamics etc. I want. The reason would be to not have to deal with tube maintenance and replacement periodically, which is not cheap to do right. I have dabbled with tube and SS DAC (and pre-amp) options to date for example and that experience builds my confidence that either technology can work best. The devil is always in the details, which device specifically, how well does it mesh with the rest of the gear, etc. |
" All the available musical information is encoded in the digital signal. This includes all the timbre, body, spacial information, decay and what have you. "
I agree with this and part of why I think the potential for pure digital amps is huge even with audiophiles and that these will be the norm in 5-10 years perhaps. |
"However for well-designed DACs with volume controls, even these will be crushed. There are only a couple out there that accomplish this BTW, so it is likely that you have not heard them."
Steve, please list or reference if you have already.
Thanks. |
"The besst overall solution is to use a good volume system to reduce the volume to listening levels and then adjust finely for each track using -0 to -9dB of digital volume. Works like a champ."
I agree this is probably the best strategy in most cases today.
I try to keep the volume control on my Squeezebox Touch controls at max normally, then set my preamp volume to desired volume level for most tracks. Then I use the TOuch VC if needed to lower the volume a touch if needed from there, especially for louder recorded tracks. A bonus with a device like SB Touch is that remotes, computers, tablets, handhelds or any wireless device with a web browser can be used to tweak the volume down on the Touch from anywhere in the house as needed. |
".....Well even the best S/W DSP volume controls seem to cause audible artifacts at more than about -9dB of volume reduction. No amount of dithering and resampling will help IMO....
There is absoltely no consensus on this, nor confirmation in listening tests. Lots of digital guru's will tell you -25db is fine. My personal experience confirms this."
I have a background implementing dithering and resampling algorithms for image processing applications used by the government and military. Not sure about this statement either. I would expect different yet comparable results in terms of accuracy to the alternative of not using digital if done well. Of course, that's always the big if with anything.
Also, the algorithms needed to accomplish optimal results have been well documented in academia for decades already and are old hat in the image processing world. I have no idea why it need cost a fortune to implement decent software based dithering and resampling to lower volume in home audio gear these days. That's why I like to buy gear that likes to advertise how their gear achieves performance, not just the claimed results. Then one can really know the value of what they buy if they care enough to do the homework.
In the case of DCS, specifically the newer more mega buck than ever Debussy gear, theirs is seemingly some of the most sophisticated home digital audio processing gear and software out there from what I read (with sound quality to match bsed on actual audition) but it comes for a hefty price. I would expect a very good perhaps reference implementation there that noone could fault based on technical approach nor listening. |
"I am currently using the digital VC in my Trinnov processor, and according to the manufacturer at 50db attenutation I am losing information."
Isn't loss of information a gradual thing with any volume control as the signal is attenuated? I don't think it just suddenly happens at some point. Attenuation might occur at different frequencies at slightly different rates for example with an analog control.
However each volume control, analog or digital might attenuate the signal slightly differently at each step, so no two necessarily are created equal. I would expect digital attenuation done right to be as good or perhaps even superior in terms of linearity and presenting what can be presented at any particular volume well.
Again, I suspect that this is another case where digital gets a bad rap categorically for no good reason. There has to be both good and bad digital and analog volume controls. ANy company that cares about good digital sound quality should be able to do it both well and in an affordable manner these days based on available technology. The technical challenge of implementing a good digital volume control algorithm would seem to be trivial compared say to the challenges of managing jitter as needed in real time during playback, IMHO. |
Steve,
I have no doubt your system is ultra resolving.
Can you tell me what it is, out of curiosity?
Thanks. |
