Preamp tubes or amp tubes will give more change?


Hi all, I have the Rogue Cronus for a month. It's my first all tube amp, and I like it. Now, I want to explore the tube rolling and wonder if changing the preamp tubes or amp tubes will give more changes in sound?
Thanks for your help.
lamcam

Showing 3 responses by nsgarch

All tubes anywhere in the system can affect sonics. That said, you want to first 'roll' those tubes that affect sonics the most (and choose what candidate you like best) and then the other tube positions as they affect sonics in descending order of influence. This way you will be able to hear the subtler changes from the less influential tube(s) and make the choice(s) you like. Otherwise you will be lost.

In descending order of importance, the amp should be optimized first. And in the amp, it's generally the smaller gain multiplier tube(s) that have the biggest effect on sonics, simply because they process (amplify) the signal the most. Starting from the input, a typical tube amplifier has:
1. a splitter/inverter tube (usually a 12A(T/U/X)7, 6SN7, or other twin-triode tube that converts a single ended signal to a balanced signal for further processing. The next tube(s) are the aforementioned gain multipliers (often the same type as the splitter/inverter, but in any case, usually another twin-triode type.) It's better if these first two functions use tubes that are lo-noise, and have their two internal sections reasonably matched. Which brands/versions sound best to you is your call . . . .
2. The next tube (or tubeS, depending how many pairs of power tubes there are) are the driver tubes. These basically modulate the power tubes' grid voltage using the amplified signal from the gain multiplier tube(s). The power tubes' grids are like a gateway (valve) that regulates how much power/frequency the power tube(s) send to your speakers. These driver tubes are next most influential (usually) on the sonic character.
3. Last in sonic importance are the power tubes themselves. The name of the game with power tubes is of course, Power. And in this respect, they influence sonics too, but in a slightly different way (than the 'color' of the sound), especially in the bass frequencies, depending on a number of factors; the most important of which are transconductance (gain or amplification capability) and maximum plate current output. These affect how good a 'grip' the power tube has on a low frequiency driver.

Preamps are another matter altogether, and can be addressed after you have the amp/speaker combo sounding the way you want. Preamps are, in their simplest form, source selectors, channel balance trimmers, and signal output attenuators (volume controllers.) Tubes in preamps basically need to be QUIET above all else. They don't do much amplifying (sometimes none) unless they are microphone or phono cartridge preamps, but they DO buffer (mediate) the various sources' output characteristics, in order to provide a proper output impedance for driving the amplifier. Bottom line? Preamps are 'traffic directors' in my opinion, and whether tube or solid state, should be QUIET and NEUTRAL. With respect to the signal, they should essentially disappear and have no effect on the sonic quality of the signal if they are doing their job.
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In most all-tube integrated amps, the splitter/inverter tube (and often the gain multiplier tube(s) as well) are eliminated since the preamp section is wired directly into the amp section. So what you will usually see (at minimum) are a couple of preamp section tubes, a couple of driver tubes and then the power tubes.

The Cronus appears to be set up this way, except it has the one extra 12AU7 which (I'm guessing) is for the phono preamplifier section, a nice feature.
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i don't agree that small signal tubes have more of an affect upon the sound of an amplifier. i have noted , using both vtl 120 amp, consonance amp and mapletree amp, that changing the output tubes have as much or more of an impact on the sound than changing the driver tubes.
First, I said the *gain multiplier tubes*, not "small signal tubes" or "driver tubes."
Second, did you do a controlled experiment with each of those three amps - comparing the effects of changing one group of tubes at a time (gain, driver, power) while holding the other two groups constant?
I stand by my statement; and further, point to a basic electonic reality, which is that where the signal undergoes the most processing (the 'gain' stage, in the case of amplifiers) is where it stands to be most affected by the hardware. YMMV ;-)
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