The PS Audio DAC/Preamp is a nice piece and often comes up for sale on the used market (remote too).
Preamp SS to match class D amp
I have been reading quite a lot and unfortunately I cannot find a post who can guide me into a match between SS pre amp and amp class D. Going through forums people ask advices only on tube pre amp to combine class D amp probably for the fact of the colorations of tube and some sterile class d amp they own. I recently bought some Belcanto ref600m as I got rid of my Mcintosh 8900 who sounded too 80s hifi and I wonder if someone can suggest a good pre amp to link. I would like to have something well build, dual mono if there are still, with balanced input and output. Considering that I listen mainly vinyl, analogic circuit I am thinking. Question as well, is there any preamp with streamer and Dac or these are only digital? As I would like to have a Dac as well to attach and I am wondering if make sense to have another extra gear
thanks
thanks
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You are asking for something that might be a bit of a unicorn. Lots of streamer/DAC/preamps out there but they tend not to have analog inputs. There are preamps that have DACs but they usually don't have built in streamers. One unit that is a full preamp AND streamer in one is going to be uncommon. The PS Audio Stellar is just a DAC and they are FPGA (software based) and don't use a DAC chip. Really nice, unit, especially for the money. Primare SC15 is a fully loaded DAC/Streamer but only has only one RCA analog input. NAD M12 is an interesting option. It is a modular design and there is an analog card with one balanced, one single ended and one phono stage input. I can ask and see if I can get a second analog card. It is not on my price list. If I can, this would give you everything you want. The base unit is $3849 AVM has a unit that is a fully loaded streaming preamp called the Ovation SD6.3 or SD 8.3. The only difference between the 6.3 and 8.3 is that the 6.3 will have a Class A SS output stage while the 8.3 will have a Tube Output stage. The issue is it has one XLR and one single ended analog input. This is also in a completely different price and quality class and I believe it is $10,995. The Ovation gear from AVM is all about sound quality and is a no compromise design. This does use Dual ESS 9018 K2M Sabre32 chips and the new software is exceptional. AVM eventually will have an SD5.3 and even an SD3.3 but they are delayed indefinitely because of COVID. Because they have switched to a new software platform that is much better, they are no longer producing X.2 models for export. PS audio is obviously direct, I have no relationship with Primare. I am obviously an NAD and AVM dealer. |
I know AVM as I live nearby the Germany, probably the new products are better but previous ones not such big audiophile reputation at least in Europe and you have to add modules in the pasts taking up the price. Wondering if Pass or Ayres would fit just the analog part on a decent way, they have a lot of analog input. |
Surprising to hear that as the US Trade Pubs like The Absolute Sound and Stereophile love AVM. I have personally done some A/B comparisons between the flagship Ovation MA8.3 monos and other amps and was shocked at how good they sound. They still do a lot of modular designs but their "streaming preamps" are not modular. For just analog, Pass or Ayre might be good choices. Need to look at impedance matching to make sure they are compatible to get the most out of them. |
Going through forums people ask advices only on tube pre amp to combine class D amp probably for the fact of the colorations of tube and some sterile class d amp they own.Tube preamps are not used to add colorations. They are used to avoid them as many solid state preamps sound bright. Most solid state amps do too, but class D is altogether a different animal and does not have the same artifacts as traditional solid state (so they don't usually sound bright). In fact some class D amps are quite neutral- far more so than traditional solid state. Since solid state preamps have lagged behind class D in this regard, that is why many people resort to tubes. To be clear here, when I use the word 'neutral' it encompasses 'musical' as well, since we are talking about low distortion that is consistent at all frequencies (traditional solid state tends to have increasing distortion as frequency is increased). When distortion is **properly** controlled then the circuit will be both musical and neutral. If you must go solid state, I would be looking at either a Benchmark or Pass Labs. |
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TEchnically, most any SS pre-amp should match well with most any SS amp including Class D. So that is not a factor to be concerned about when choosing a SS pre-amp to use with Class D. Where it becomes an issue is with tube pre-amps that typically have higher output impedance. Not all SS or Class D amps have high enough input impedance to work optimally with a tube pre-amp. Somewhat muddled sound, not clear and articulate is often the result. I have Bel Canto ref1000m amps with Arc sp16 tube pre-amp in my main system. I also have Bel Canto c5i integrated amp in another....no tubes there, all digital, only thing needed is an external streamer. Amps are similar but sound is much different mostly tonally which I would attribute mostly to the difference between the pre-amps used with each and the DAC also to some extent. The best description of the c5i no tube sound is more electrostat like....more airy and neutral perhaps and also very clean...dead silent. THe tube preamp combo is very similar but the ARC pre-amp adds a touch of midrange warmth and sparkle. Which is better would come down to largely a matter of preference. I am strongly considering getting away from tubes altogether when the time comes to replace the ARC sp 16. Something like the new Benchmark pre-amp has a lot of appeal to me.... also dead quiet and adding nothing much of its own by all accounts so far. Plus I Iike Benchmark’s no nonsense, R&D based approach to product design in general. Also can’t go wrong with Bel Canto in my mind. But the Audio Research tube pre-amp does sound really good...... |
Thank you Atmasphere for the accurate explaination who add value to this post and as well to Mapman to report his experience with Belcanto. I tried Belcanto preamp with old version of chip that was Icepower and I didn’t like, sounds was compressed but changed with external preamp. For what I understood class d preamp (so I assume most of the one who have streamer functions or Dac) are not evolved as the latest class d amp so is better to look for a traditional SS. I guess that Nad pre amp are class d circuit base however is true that AVM are transistor based the latest ones. Here i know the national distributor and there is a lot of second hand available for good price, Germans usually go to bigger brand like Burmester if they pay cash and brand new. For AVM I know the previous serie and was ok nothing to make say is a miracle, however if a ss state preamp 10 years old had same technology I don’t go for a new product. SS preamp didn’t had significant jump in technologies in the past decades and no so many brands are still investing in these as people trend is class d or all in one system. So can you suggest me an old good as pre amp, if with phono even better, but a proper pre amp that I might find on second hand |
Bryston makes a nice SS Pre for consideration. https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-bp-173-line-preamplifier |
beppep OP We found your your Belcanto Ref 600M mono’s (that use Hypex NC500 modules and buffer) had a good sound "for Class-D" when they drove a two way speaker that had a Rahl ribbon with very benign 6ohm load and the mid/bass was also a benign load. Your lucky in that your Harbeth 40.1 are similar, in that they have an impedance load line nearly always above 6ohm, and a -phase angle that is very low, the only time -phase is high is at 55hz but then the impedance is nice and high at that frequency also, so it nulls it out. These speakers are kind to Class-D, if you change speakers look for similar loading. https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/1008harH40fig1.jpg As to your preamp question I don't use one, I have a pair of the Hypex NC500's here also but driven direct from the dac to their balanced input stages with no buffer before it, and they also have a huge Linear power supply instead of SMP like the 600m have, they do sound good in my second system that uses speakers again with very benign loading. Cheers George |
@georgehifi very good sense of observation:) and well appreciated advice.indeed I have Harbeth 40.1 and now a Belcanto to match. I read quite a lot on class d and being in contact with engineers who know personally the contributor or the Hypex module not the inventor as many review said. Well there are many customised class d amp with same modules but what make difference is the implementation. You can buy molamola for 14k and I get the same one for 3k, same components i should say but different input. Taking this I decided to invest in well known brand rather than pay half price for the new 1200 Hypex that on paper should overperform the 500 but without implementation is not such a jump in sound (reason why I don’t buy amplifier from assemblers). another valid point I will not change speakers I just buy extra pair if I want something different, but Harbeth 40 is to keep for me. The important is to find a decent pre amp with at least two input to play vinyl and a Dac streamer. |
The important is to find a decent pre amp with at least two input to play vinylThe Freya +$899 with Mani$129 phono stage both with 14 day trial period. Cheers George |
I used to have the BAT VK42-SE preamp. Rather liked it. It was warm and mated well with the neutral to dry Brystons I had. The preamp I have now I think is a good match for Class D because it is even quieter than likely ALL Class D amps. It was mentioned previously, the Benchmark LA4 preamp. It will not impart any sound to your system. You will hear your sources, amp, and speakers instead. This maybe good or bad, for me this is good, exactly what I want in a preamp. |
Well thank you si much for the advices, quick question you might know the recent streamer from Nad that are preamp as well are in class d or transistor? I believe that having an external phono is better btw.. as I cannot demo and I need a streamer I might consider to take a streamer who does as well volume control and a preamp then decide if I have to keep both |
Do you fancy experimenting and moving off the HiFi track? In the professional studio world you are describing a "monitor controller". Studio kit is mostly balanced because a variety of different things are being plugged and unplugged all the time and minimising earth loops and maximising S/Nr is necessary. Some kit, like the Crane Song and Coleman are remote-controlled rack mount, so probably not suitable. Something like the SPL Elector / Director or Drawmer MC1.1, 2.1 3.1 etc. might be worth investigating. The latter are cheap enough to consider as experiments. What you won't get though is any HiFi cachet. |
Input source as well rca to laptop headphone out :)Yikes! If you want a recipe for sound is as well flat, no depth, no rich,-that is a good way to get it. If you are playing from a laptop and budget is a concern, get a Topping E30, which you can find on ebay for about $125.00 including shipping (or thereabouts). Connect it to the USB port on the computer and send the audio out that way. You'll hear an instant improvement!! |
Now trying with Nad c 658 and streaming. I can say sound got better and the definition as well but the separation between instrument is so clinical and analytical that is not enjoyable. I think is the chip on the amp, I mean somehow is flat and not 3D, is not involving, mids are not as it should they are thin, or I might need to get use to it or the burn in period is not done |
I have been using the Bel Canto E1X controller for about a year now and it does it all, and extremely well at that. DAC, Streamer, phono, two analogue inputs, and most importantly, it sounds superb. I guess I too have the “right” speakers according to @georgehifi, because I have it paired with a pair of Bel Canto Ref. 600’s driving a pair of Spendor A7’s, and before that a pair of ATC SCM19 v2’s, and I have no complaints with either. Simply great sound. As is most always the case, it’s all about the synergy between components. Isn’t that one reason this hobby is so interesting and rewarding when you get it right? |
@vdotman I think you are perfectly right about synergy etc, spendor in theory is alter ego of my speaker on classic line, however you have floorstander ones. To add a Belcanto preamp for other 6000usd doesn’t make sense for me, I will end it up with a system costing more than 10k with the unknown question if it sounds right for me same as adding a pre amp from McIntosh. At this point I could keep my ma8000 that was integrated even if sounded very coloured in the bass the stage was very coherent and musical |