Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

Can you also build a best in class home theater going active?

Duh, only if you want world class, this is what they use in private screening rooms at the movie studios.:

https://www.meyersound.com/focus/residential_cinema/

Klipsch Fives McLaren Edition (NOT a studio monitor by a longshot)

OP, did you try hooking the Genelec's up to the Lyngdorf yet in just two channel? 

I'll bet it would be an eye (ear) opener if you compared the measurements of the Paradigm 9H's with the Genelec's in a stereo setup. Can Room Perfect print out a graph like ARC can?

@brianlucey , what 3 headphones do you use to master Atmos? Thanks.

@fred60 , if an amp goes out on an active speaker please don't chuck it. Unscrew the plate amp from the back, carefully disconnect the connector wires, and take it/send it to the dealer/mfg for repairs.

@lonemountain , how does ATC service amps from active speakers?

@mastering92 

I love that first quote in your virtual system. That Pioneer gear looks choice, very, very nice.

@donavabdear

This should put your mind at ease about the Bryston Bax-1 external crossover:

Technical Note by: David A. Rich

Unlike the analog active crossover network in the ELAC Navis loudspeakers or Carlo’s old active system that he referenced, Bryston chose to go the DSP route in the BAX-1 crossover. There are several intelligent reasons for this:

1. 1. 1. One can design a much more complex filter in DSP compared to a few inductors, resistors, and capacitors in a passive or even an analog active system.
   2. 2. DSP allows filters that cannot be synthesized in the passive domain. Finite impulse response filters are possible. Computation that is not causal is possible – one can look forward and back at a digital signal to determine a sample point to be sent to a driver. Phase correction is possible with non-causal filters although it is unclear if that does anything positive. Bryston is not correcting the phase here.
   3. 3. Drivers present complex impedances. This interacts with a passive crossover. In an active system, with the amplifier directly connected to the drivers, the speaker sees a flat response at the terminals. The acoustic performance of the driver is isolated. The non-ideal response of the driver, now isolated, can be corrected with the DSP filter. Custom compensation for a specific driver shipped with the speakers is possible although this presents issues if a replacement is needed as the DSP code must be updated.
   4. 4. In passive speakers, crossover components see very large voltage swings and high current flows in them. This results in non-linearities that can be measured easily and are high enough to be audible, especially in iron core inductors and electrolytic capacitors. Moving to air-core inductors and film capacitors are prohibitively expensive at lower crossover frequencies. Passive speakers also have very complex impedance plots and can be difficult to drive. This is due to the passive crossover network and the overlapping impedances of the drivers. Dealing with an individual driver gives us a much easier impedance to drive. What comes out of the amplifier terminal in an active design winds up at the voice coil exactly.
   5. 5. Passive components have tolerances. Capacitors and inductors are within 5% or even 10% of the specified value. The speaker’s impedance also varies from sample to sample. Combine all the tolerance changes of each component and the desired frequency response of the speaker has changed by a significant amount. This results in pair matching errors that effect stereo imaging. DSP has no such tolerance errors. Every box produces the same response.
   6. 6. Bryston’s approach has significant advantages for those who want to keep a speaker for a long time. The amplifiers inside an active speaker have little space and occasional ventilation problems. Parts availability may be 5 years or less if the company still exists. The DSP section of an all in one box speaker may also have parts that cannot be replaced and sometimes the company puts a limit on the time it will repair the electronics.
   7. 7. To ensure 10 years or more of uptime the DSP filter code should be portable to a newer external DSP box if the old one becomes obsolete or is not reparable.
   8. 8. Bryston can continue development of the DSP code for the speaker. If they make an improvement, all they have to do is send you the code to download.

(see the measurement graph using this link for the comments addressing it below)

Above is a curve pair of the response of the passive Middle T and active Middle T provided by Bryston. Each curve shows the listening window response and power response. Note that they are not flattening the listening window with DSP completely. You would see the active curve get as flat as ice if they did that.

What Bryston does is use the fact that they are applying DSP correction to each driver, not to the whole speaker.

That gives an extra degree of freedom when applying DSP filters to each driver span around the crossover points. For the woofer – midrange the crossover is 500Hz and they overlap between 300Hz – 1.8kHz. The midrange – tweeter crossover at 2kHz and the overlap runs from about 2.2kHz to 3.5kHz. In these regions, Bryston can adjust the sound power and the listening window in different directions. This is something other speaker designers may take advantage of but they talk of it in very technical terms. Bryston has come up with a brilliant explanation and it never occurred to me before that it could be this easy to explain.

The graph pair above shows the Bryston concept in practice. Both the early reflection curve and the power spectrum have been improved. Outside the crossover area, the changes track each other. In the crossover, the correction becomes almost independent.

 You get frustrated that passive just smooths all this information over, covers it up in the background, the mix now is somehow missing the little elements the artist and mix engineer worked so damn hard to put in there for you

I wouldn't have been able to articulate it better. I own passive and active versions of the same Paradigm speaker and the passive smooths it out. 

I like the THX philosophy re: minimum standards and testing. If you get a THX certified installer it should be fairly consistent. 

Still waiting for your "theoretical" pure system, please post the @invalid method of system design, can't wait.

@invalid 

So, I agree, there are tradeoffs in everything. Can you give us an example of a "pure chain" in theory?? I am sure it exists, but how do you know what to match with what? Is there a checklist somewhere? 
I am not busting your chops, TAS, Stereopile,What HiFi all give out awards and prizes for individual components, what about how to match them??

In a thread on active speakers kota1 shares he is an advocate of active speakers, uses active speakers, and posts his system and pics of active speakers.

@thespeakerdude , who has nothing posted about his system is not impressed.

Like, who could have seen that coming? 

@kingharold , that is a great way to get what you want, if you want it done right, DIY. Fortunately you have the chops to make it happen. Interesting how you had the freedom to go in any direction and you chose active! Nice job.

If you like to tinker, great. Tinker with the front end. But why tinker matching amps, drivers, and speaker cables when the engineer who DESIGNED the speaker can do it for you at a much lower cost?

OP, powered speakers show "audiophiles" are a bit confused and that isn’t all their fault. If you are an audio dealer which customer would you prefer, the one upgrading constantly or the customer that is one and done? I think the industry took the more profitable route and created the conditions that caused the confusion. Thankfully companies like Dynaudio, KEF, JBL, etc. are now trying to provide both products and education to remedy the confusion.

Can you build a great, 2 channel hifi system going active?

These speakers will do everything. You don’t need to lift a finger other then to select the song you want to play. No way you can get the same SQ with the same budget going the traditional route:

Read more here:

I have the same situation as @donavabdear , about 17 speakers in my HT most of which are active. I saved myself piles and piles of cash on speakers cables and external amplifiers PLUS get the benefit of active crossovers. The specs for my Paradigm Reference Active speakers are in my system profile. Each speaker is internally biamped. That is like 34 channels of amplification that I didn’t have to buy and setup separately. In a word, the most efficient use of an audiophiles budget is to save money using active speakers and use the money saved on room treatments, clean power, source components, and interconnects.

Dynaudio makes both types of speakers and they break it down in this article:

.

@gruvjet I have not heard Focals so can’t comment, but your friend lacked the same ROOM you had, so can’t really compare apples to apples.

FYI, did you see this:

@fpomposo 

Regarding vibration control, it is everything, half the holographic, super detailed sound of my system I attribute to my ceramic cones, maple boards, sorbothane pads on the rack, carbon fiber pucks under the speakers, Schumann wave generator etc... and you cant use most of that stuff on a powered speaker system.

I have used Mapleshade Bedrock stands on my active speakers for years, stunning upgrade:

https://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerstands.php

OP, reading this thread I fear the confusion you brought up is spot on. Some of these posts cross the line from confusion to delusion...where is this junk???

Genelec’s G Three transduces more unpolluted truth than any other small speaker I’ve auditioned..... My highest recommendation -Herb Reichert

@clustrocasual The speakers in my profile are active but designed for home use, not studios. None of the links I posted above for two channel are designed for studio monitoring. What is the junk you are referring to? The OP talks about Genelec which are finalists for speaker of the year (and the least expensive of the speakers Stereophile nominated):

"I doubt you'll be surprised when I tell you I am over-the-moon crazy about Genelec's G Three minimonitor. It rendered recordings in a manner that really suits my listening proclivities"- Herb Reichert

Bryton sells non bundled active speaker systems:

https://bryston.com/active-loudspeakers/

@jerryg123 , if you are in an area with a Guitar Center they have lots of studio monitors and will let you audition NP. The alternative is companies that have 30-60 day return policies.

The point is there are lots of active speakers that aren’t studio monitors, if you don’t like co-branding here is another popular active speaker built for home use. If you know where the guy tossed the $10K cable (or 2 meters of silver) post a link , I’ll retrieve it NP.

If you want to bash companies with big marketing budgets can you be specific? Potshot posting is reckless, I hate when someone denigrates an industry because they don't know what else to write in order to feel important.

When you get back to Guitar Center see if they have Genelecs, Yamaha HS Series or JBL 306 series you can demo,

@donavabdear

We need to understand psychoacoustics and the huge placebo effect that we experience in the audiophile community.

This represents YOUR perception which is fine, do you have anything published about this "placebo" effect? As for psychoacoustics do you have any creds?

Technobabble begets techno babble, claims can be linked to research. What links can you share to back this up?

with a friend who worked at a vintage guitar store. 

I hope this isn't your "research", then again I wouldn't be surprised if you were taken in by the "halo" effect...LOL.

@donavabdear

Welcome to the forum, when you have time could you post your "virtual system" in your profile? The placebo effect can extend to anything, not just audio. Many dealers today offer 30-60 day trials so the bad dealers can’t hope to compete in the world of solid return policies. I think the vast majority of dealers are ethical and want to provide value. I have no problem with dropping $$$ on cables or whatever. I have HUGE problems on spending even a dollar on gear without addressing the room. If there is audiophile kryptonite I would say it is acoustic treatments (or lack of) rather than what gear costs.

I have the exact same speaker in both versions, the Paradigm Reference Studio 20 v2 and the Paradigm Active 20 v2. I hooked up the Studio 20’s in a biamp configuration to a Carver 505 5 channel amp (two channels driving L and two channels driving R) . I used quality speaker cables, set them up and they really sounded good, wide open soundstage from wall to wall.

When compared to the actives it feels you can drive the actives at lower volumes to achieve the same effect of being enveloped in sound. The bass extended down to 54hz in the passive, 36 hz in the active. The bass just doesn’t extend lower, it has a tight authority that really sings when you crank it. No mush, no softness, just a tight bass that drives along with the song with seemingly no effort. The tweeters seem to sing a little more effortlessly as well. If you didn’t hear them side by side you would be happy with the passive. After hearing the active the passive seems like drinking cold coffee compared to a steaming hot cup.

passive 20 specs

active 20 specs

http://www.cain.cainslair.com/Paradigm%20Reference%20Active%20Series%20Specifications.htm

NP, it is in the drop down menu when you log into the site. Here is a link and at the top you will see Create System. When you click on a members name if they have a system posted you can open it from inside the "details" in their profile. Looking forward to checking out your rig, thx:

@donavabdear , what a nice blend of work and comfort. I see we are both using Paradigms. I took my cue on setup right from the Dolby specs, nothing original there, just measured it out and dialed in the angles. One adjustment that worked for me is getting the tweeter of my CC in line with my L-R speakers. I set it up on Isoacoustic stands so it would reach to that height. I imagine when you are chilling the last thing you want to think about is audio equipment. Really top line gear you have all around, congrats!

@donavabdear , I think this thread is spot on, you asked an obvious question and I don't know there is an obvious answer. As an active speaker user myself I agree with all the benefits. 

I have never used an Apple product so can’t comment on the SQ. I have a thread here on Atmos music and posted a video where Steve Wilson states that when Apple began offering spatial audio the demand for mixes in Atmos went through the roof overnight. My system is setup for Atmos as well as 2 CH, 5.1, 7.1, Auro 3d, etc. Atmos doesn’t compete with two channel, its a companion, not a divorce. Where some music fans lose it is they think it is an either or proposition, either 2 ch or atmos. Atmos is backward compatible, you can listen to an atmos mix on headphones, 2 CH, 5.1, or 9.2.7, or whatever. I think that innovation moves the industry forward and like it or not, Atmos music is innovation. So for this reason I give Apple Music props. We have already moved from lossy to lossless (except spotify users) and some streaming services are doing "hirez". When you talk about hirez Tomlinson Holman (THX)made an interesting observation. He said:

"Any audio engineer confronted with the question, “what do you want to do with a higher bitrate?”; will always ask for more frequency range and more dynamic range because they don’t know what to do with more channels. "It’s a new paradigm." "Just to go to 192 KHz sampling rate to satisfy passing bats instead of human beings is pretty crazy, but adding channels is of very great value."

I still use the codec he developed at USC with Audyssey-DSX where the focus is wide channels, then height, and finally rear channels. When atmos came along with object based audio it kind of left the channel based approach behind. Well any way I give Apple props for championing spatial audio.

I agree, you can have an incredible system creating synergy with amps and speakers. You just can’t do it for the same budget.

A pair of these for $600? (on sale currently 50% off) This isn’t a just a pair of speakers, it is an entire system, all you need is to plug them in, download a free app and you are streaming. If you got a sub, a CDP, a turntable, just plug it into the speaker:

Soundstage Review:

Configured as a stereo pair, the PW 600s sounded outstanding, easily rivaling separate speakers and electronics costing many times their $1198/pair price.

Spending $7000 on these speakers (that are really an entire system) you are getting 1400 watts of bespoke class A/B and D amps, the preamp that can connect anything, even a turntable or HDMI, plus high resolution dac (and saving money on speaker cables) is a good investment. I doubt you could better with separates on the same budget:

What HiFi-

"If you're thinking the driver set-up looks a little familiar, it’s because KEF’s flagship Blade Meta loudspeakers use something very similar. Given those speakers cost a cool £30,000 ($35,000), it’s a signal of intent that KEF’s decided to trickle this technology down to the LS60 Wireless."

You don't have to use the wireless feature. You can connect the speakers with the included 8 meter inter-speaker cable (manual pg 18) and then connect your front end components and a sub like you would a preamp using the inputs on the back of the speaker (pg 21-22 manual):

@brianlucey

Your idea of being qualified is you have ears and are over 41? Right.

2. A studio engineer needs 3 pair? Not if they mix Atmos.

3. Speakers are in their infancy? Are you shopping at Best Buy? As for amps, some feel we are going backward, look at how much classic tube amps sell for today.

4. The last 30 years powered monitors use cheap amps? Wrong. Cheap powered monitors use cheap amps. If you want powered monitors with good amps call Sweetwater, they’ll sell em to you by the dozen.

5. Why do you care if someone has budget? Do you think if you close your eyes and wish Santa will bring you something LOL.

6. Your from Ohio? Like, is that an ID? So where are your mythical "best components" or are you waiting for Santa. If you want to be all that you gotta bring it, post your virtual system, otherwise it is just another month to Christmas LOL.

Your advanced software? That explains everything, you got software, Bill Gates watch out. LAMO

@brianlucey

These setups use the same specs I do (see my profile), 9 bed channels, front and rear heights, center height, and VOG. THIS is why we ALL need 17+ speakers, SPECS.

Abbey Road using Neumann ACTIVE monitors (with cheap amps inside LOL) mixing Pink Floyd in immersive audio.

Sony’s Mixstage:

Floyd Tooles home system

Grammy winner Jeff Balding with those crappy amp Genelecs in his Nashville studio and MORE than six speakers, let him know you will take away his Grammys for breaking the 6 speaker rule LOL

,

@brianlucey , if you go back and look at your first post in this thread I think my reply was in a similar spirit. You have the OP who posted not one, but two systems. His work rig and his home rig. I look at your profile before I posted anything and I see nada. In this context your post seemed like a rant about the OP. Calling his gear midfi??? IDK what your definition of hifi is but those Paradigms are their flagship speaker and his electronics are PS Audio and I have never seen anyone call their signature BHK line midfi. Those comments came with nothing to back up your opinion.

Now, if you say you need 3 pairs of speakers fine. YOU need 3 pairs, don’t make it like everyone can do what you do with the same 3 pairs. You also never provided any kind of substance for your claim in your post so in my view it was misinformation. As for posting pics of studios it was meant to support my claim that many recognized professionals use about the same number of speakers as the OP (including myself),

Now that you have established some creds fine. In the future maybe lead with that before you start insulting someones gear (crappy amps, midfi, etc). You did NOT need to go there, especially with a new member coming out swinging in his first thread for this community. I like the topic of the thread, there was good back and forth, and then you come in like throwing mud at the OP? No, you didn’t need to do that and I simply responded.

I started two thread here on atmos, one on atmos music and one on how to setup your room in atmos. It would be nice to continue a discussion re: atmos in either thread but let’s focus here on the topic at hand, powered/active speakers.

So, do you prefer active or passive speakers? Why?

@uncledemp , are you using Dynaudio studio monitors or their Focus XD line? 

I guess I must have missed the perceived insult in the OP’s original question. I agree that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about active speakers. I think that if active speakers (or their benefits) were understood it would be useful when setting up budgets and rooms. I didn’t perceive the post that members here are inferior for not using them, YMMV. The OP even apologized for coming at a member, that was a standup reply, respectful I thought.

As for midfi I guess it all depends on your definition. I wish I had more midfi gear if we are talking about $35,000 Paradigm 9H (not to mention the matching CC and surrounds). I just can’t comprehend how this could be midfi, even if you have unlimited budget???
Let’s be clear, I love Paradigms (see my system), never used or heard a genelec so can’t comment.

As for your setup it is interesting and unfamiliar. I know you need to mix to a standard that sounds good on everything from $35K Paradigms to $35 ear buds.
I give you props for blazing the trail in unfamiliar territory going analog in mastering that will likely be replayed on digital systems. I do like a lot of the recordings mastered in analog in the fifties and sixties and I will look forward to "hearing" your content, literally, in my HT. If you have any playlists posted on tidal please share a link, thanks.

@oddioboy , welcome to the forum. I think you articulated what I was thinking much better than I could:

"So the question is, can making an active speaker give control over system variables such that you can improve one of those 3 things in ways no separates ever could? The answer is yes. A rather resounding yes."

This is not to say passives are a resounding no, just a different approach with a different set of tradeoffs. My system started with a pair of Active 40’s which are internally biamped. Then it went to 5.1, 7.1 and then when I added wide channels for 9.1. Then when Atmos came along I figured out how to get 4 more active speakers mounted on tall stands. I never had to buy more amps, buy more racks, buy more speaker wire. I did have to buy additional power conditioners for all the outlets needed but active speakers let me grow my system just easy as buying a new speaker and it was very space and cost effective.

Now you take the benefits of active and put them in a stereo system and you are grooving. When you take 7.2.4 (or more) and put them in an atmos system it is radical. The entire room comes alive watching a movie like Dune or a ZZ Top concert. @brianlucey made a very astute observation when he said good atmos needs cohesion. A good active speaker has cohesion designed into it with the amps, drivers, crossovers and cabinet designed as one cohesive system, Multiply that same cohesion across 11+ active speakers in a carefully treated and calibrated room and it sounds incredible to my ears.

If you have time would you post your virtual system and maybe a few pics?

@oddioboy , I agree with you, do you have a link you can post to an article or reference that kind of summarizes the active and passive comparison? How did you manage to come to your conclusion? Remember, the topic of this thread is about confusion re: active. Anything you can post that would address that issue (which I also agree with) would be helpful. Thanks.

@invalid , I posted one grammy winner, two well known studios (Abbey Road and Sony) and guy that literally wrote the book on speakers (Floyd Toole). It was simply the context that all of these diverse professionals use roughly the same setup (coincidentally as myself and the OP). I never won a Grammy and unless you are Milli Vanilli I can’t imagine it being a bad thing.

@brianlucey breaking down his approach to amps and speakers at 8 minutes into the video. Very interesting Brian, much respect, clearly you have a talent for "tube jockeying" as you call it. You do state that tubes are high maintenance and can be a PIA so IDK if that is a plus or a minus when it comes to going with an active speaker as a preference for consumers.

I have not tried the tube route yet and if you post another video on your atmos setup in that other thread it would be much appreciated. I also saw your NAMM interview on youtube re: the all analog plug in, nice:

@m-db, OMG I was just on Meyers website before posting this...fate!

Good question about the analog signal path. I have two options.

One is to use the Marantz "Pure Direct" pass through on my processor. Is it "pure" analog? No, but it is another option if I am using an analog input on the processor. According to Marantz:

The Pure Direct Mode is passed through the tone circuit/AD Converter/DA converter/DSP include Audyssey processing for Analog input.
In addition, stop the video and the display.

Now my second option is to run a separate preamp. The active speakers I use have both XLR and RCA inputs on the back with a toggle switch. I have tried using a separate Parasound all analog preamp (Zpre) I have connected to the RCA inputs. I liked it but it wasn’t necessarily better.

@donavabdear interesting how this takes us right back to the topic of this thread, active speakers and confusion. In @brianlucey video he states that his entire mastering system is a chain. Change one thing, you change the entire chain. For professionals with budget and trained hearing, that’s fine. For consumers, that’s expensive, possibly real expensive to put a good, cohesive "chain" together as each mismatch needs to be traded, swapped, or sold.

With an active speaker you trade off the ability to "tune" the speakers with variables like the amp and speaker cables. In return, you get a coherent, cohesive "chain" that is portable and replicable. It takes a LOT of the variables that make up the chain out of the hands of a consumer and puts them in the hands of the engineer who spent HIS budget and time putting together a cohesive "chain" (cabinet, amps, crossover, drivers, even the connections on the plate amp in the back of the speaker).

If I want to "tune" my active speakers because of how I place them in the room I have contour knobs, a volume knob, and a high pass filter on the back (see the pic of the controls on the back in my system page). That is common in an active speaker, you don’t get it in a passive speaker and I can dial those contour knobs to the exact degree I want them and they are FREE to fiddle with, unlike swapping out speaker cables.

I saw an interview of recording engineer John Traunwieser where he traded out his B&W monitors for Meyers because the B&W’s sounded too good. They made every mix sound good BECAUSE of the speakers strengths but that didn’t always translate to different speakers. To your point if device (amp/speaker) etc colors the sound in such a way it might not translate the same on another system.

In a way its fortunate that the straight forward path on this journey is laid out with published specs. Specs for a relatively flat speaker, dolby specs on where to place them, specs for treating and calibrating your room, even specs for reference volume levels. As long as you don’t stray too far from the path the specs lay out you can get a good result for decent money.

BTW, if anyone reading this wants the specs for setting up a room and system for Atmos come visit my thread here:

FYI, Meyers Sound article on why go active:

Why Self-Powered?

Self-powered loudspeakers offer several advantages over their passive counterparts when it comes to fidelity, reliability, and simplicity. The great part is, you’ll start to reap the benefits of a self-powered system before you even power up.

Ease of deployment: System set-up is so much easier when you have fewer components and fewer cables to worry about being miswired. Since self-powered loudspeakers incorporate amplification, you’ll never have to deal with matching speakers to amplifiers or connecting components. You don’t have to worry about calibration of gain and crossover setting which means more time focusing on the show. Eliminating amp racks doesn’t just streamline system deployment, it streamlines your inventory whether you’re a rental house or a road warrior. And when you consider that the average amp rack weighs nearly 300 pounds and takes up four feet of truck space, the efficiencies get even clearer. Let alone when you want to fly the amplifier racks to get closer to the speakers, often requiring more rigging points and more motors.

Predictable, reliable operation: Internal amplification is closely matched to drivers. Because individual components have been optimized during manufacturing, you can expect consistent sound from show to show. Built-in, factory-optimized protection circuitry provides extra assurance without degrading signal quality. And, when you have less equipment, you have less risk of failure.

Better frequency and phase response: Because self-powered loudspeakers incorporate sophisticated processing, they are calibrated to exhibit optimal response curves in key performance parameters. Active crossovers are more precise, sophisticated designs, and bi-amped systems are time aligned, eliminating phase issues. The result? Accurate sound throughout the speaker’s range, at any volume level.

Unparalleled clarity: In powered monitors, internal amplifiers are precision-matched to drivers, delivering optimal power at all times for cleaner sound. And because amps are built into loudspeaker cabinets, there’s no need for long lengths of connecting cable, which can become prone to distortion and signal loss.

Tighter transients: Since self-powered loudspeakers have very short internal cables, amps inside can more effectively dampen driver mechanical motion, which leads to better sonic accuracy and tighter, crisper transients. (And, there’s none of the loss in levels and signal quality inherent over long cable distances.)

Certified Safe: Nothing matters more than the safety of your staff and customers. Because self-powered loudspeakers incorporate amplification, they must undergo rigorous testing by Underwriters Laboratories and other international organizations to ensure they operate safely and guard against the risk of fire, electric shock, and inadequate structural design. Enjoy peace of mind knowing Meyer Sound powered products are certified by FCC, UL, CSA, CE, and CEE the most stringent agencies in the business.

The Problems with Passive

What about passive loudspeakers? At first glance, passive systems may seem like a bargain. But we already know that passive systems require more components and accessories than powered systems. Sonically, they exhibit potential for signal loss over distances, and it is very hard to ensure consistent, optimal sound and volume as amplifiers have many variables to consider when being matched to loudspeakers, such as cable lengths and gauge as well as the number of speakers connected to the amplifier.

Passive systems are often touted as easy to service. But because powered loudspeakers are so complex to design and build, self-powered loudspeakers usually represent the top innovations from leading manufacturers. Better quality translates to better reliability, which means fewer maintenance issues in the long run.

At face value, passive systems might seem less expensive and easier to maintain. But once you start adding in amps, cables, and other components not to mention increased transport and labor costs you’ll find that those savings just don’t add up to a better value.

@lonemountain

I was posting about specs and @brianlucey made an astute observation about cohesion needed in atmos. I was saying how a benefit of active is making the amp/speaker chain more cohesive. A consumer doesn’t need to reinvent anything re: speaker/amp/cable matching when you go active and place them by just follow the dolby specs. I posted roughly 4 setups using the same specs the OP and I use earlier in this thread and then I see another SOA setup using those specs and an active speaker I am sure is near and dear to your heart. Any comments about Blackbird Studio C you would like to share?

@brianlucey , would really appreciate some pics of your atmos setup either in your virtual system for your profile or in that other thread re: atmos music. 

@sokogear , I don’t disagree. I have speakers from the JBL Studio series (230) in my mancave matched with a Carver AV505 amp. I listened to the JBL LS306 studio monitors at Guitar Center that gets rave reviews. Both designs use trickle down tech from the flagship JBL M2 Monitors. I preferred the passive 230’s by a wide margin. Then you look at the price differential, the 230’s were $400, the speaker wires $200 and the amp $800=$1400 all in. The 306 were about $300 for the pair.

When I flipped it so it was equal ground, Paradigm Studio 20’s (passive) with the same amp and speaker wire vs the Active 20’s (cost of each setup about equal) the actives were better, no contest.

@mijostyn , if some people try targeting DSP curves they get a misfire. I admire your pursuit of perfection but I am way to lazy to do all that testing. If I can get 80% of the SQ with 20% of the time and budget I am good, YMMV.

@sokogear , I was making a reference to the 80/20 rule. By focusing on the 20% of a system that gives you 80% of the results you are going to save time and money. I have active systems in my HT and my desktop and a passive system in the man cave. The active systems are more satisfying and required less effort and budget to setup for the equivalent result. I still like the man cave system though.

My desktop system is a good example of the 80/20 rule. It has a pair of Paradigm Shift A2 active speakers and a Paradigm PW Link preamp with ARC room correction. I have 0 room treatments in my office and no space for a subwoofer or a rack. It was easy to setup and not meant to be end game and doubt I could do better for the $600 investment. This is without room treatments in a less than ideal space for audio. The active speakers use dsp and ARC works really well with them for $600 I would say I got the 20% (the speaker, the amp, and the room) right.