I agree with most here that speaker placement and room treatments is the place to start. You need to get that right first. The biggest thing that made an impact to soundstage depth for me is having the speakers towed out, so that they are almost firing straight ahead. But that applies to my B&W 802’s, it might be different for you. Definitely suggest playing with toeing out your speakers though, in addition to the other suggestions regarding speaker placement.
After that, for sure, I find power cables (and other cabling) and conditioners all play into the degree of soundstage depth as well. However I found that the few conditioners I tried altered the tonal balance adversely. I found that the Torus RM20 (which is not a conditioner but rather a big honking isolation transformer that weighs 90 pounds - super simple and super effective) was far more even handed and has more instantaneous current supply than your amp could ever want. Torus told me that moving up to the more expensive AVR20 is pointless provided your AC supply stays within 4V of 120VAC. They suggested I purchase a Kill-A-Watt meter from Amazon, which I did, and I found my voltage to be fine. So I stuck with the RM20.
After testing my amp (Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated) connected to the Torus and to the wall, I found it was actually best through the Torus. This was NOT the case with the Audioquest Niagara 5000 I demoed where my amp sounded unquestionably better connected directly to the wall.
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One clarification - when I mentioned that the Torus is not a conditioner, I meant not in the traditional sense. Rather than filtering noise out, it electrically isolates your system from your house’s AC.
Interestingly, it was Nordost who first turned me on to Torus, when I had some questions about my Valhalla 2 speaker cables. They told me they thought conditioners can be tricky and unpredictable and yes, they also mentioned they can have an effect on tonal balance. They then suggested I look into Torus, along with another industry-veteran contact of mine who also strongly suggested Torus.
The RM20 definitely helps with soundstage depth. Details become more coherent, and I find that mid and upper detail are prerequisites for soundstage depth. Or maybe they just happen to always go together, not sure. But as mentioned speaker position and room treatment first…
And, dare I say it given the controversy in my other thread regarding power cord length: I think @ghdprentice found that when comparing like power cords of differing lengths, the longer cord offered a deeper soundstage? His test was with Audioquest Hurricanes. And while I think of it - in my experience if you are using a USB cord shorter than 1.5m that will also clobber your soundstage depth somewhat and will compress everything more. I did this test with two Audioquest Diamond USB cords and two Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cords. The longer cords from both manufacturers were blatantly better than the shorter cords in terms of openness, detail and soundstage depth. I thought it might be a burn in issue at first so I actually ran the cords hundreds of hours, with no change - longer cords were superior. So you might want to ensure you have no ultra short USB cables.
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@wheelndeal1099 , try a demo of 1.5 or 2m quality USB cord. You might be surprised at the results….
No matter the vendor they always say that their products cannot be improved on. Best policy is to try for yourself, ideally with a blind test so it is objective, and see what you hear. Power cables can help improve soundstage depth, but I agree they shouldn’t be your first focus to address this issue though.
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Agree with @audphile1 . In my case, just for fun I tried substituting my very expensive Audioquest Dragon cord feeding my Torus RM20 with the stock Torus power cord. The Torus in turn powers my entire system.
My initial impression was, it sounds much different, and actually not bad at all! There was an immediacy and crispness that became more apparent with the stock cord. But, the major difference was that the soundstage was all on one level, with less dimensionality to vocals and instruments, less air, and less of a holographic presentation.
As stated your results may vary. Of note, Torus told me they thought the cord from the Torus to your components matters more than the cord from the wall to the Torus, but as always, they said listen to your own ears. Great advice.
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Lol…. I do get a kick out of the audiosciencereview channel. I find it amusing and utterly useless. I do agree with Amir’s take on the importance of blind testing though. Everyone is subject to confirmation bias, to varying degrees. But nobody today can simply measure what gear will sound good or bad. And given the small niche of our hobby I have a hunch that developing formulas to calculate performance of audiophile-grade equipment is not really considered a burning problem for humanity to tackle. I think it’s one notch down from finding the cure for sleep.
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@coachpoconnor , well put. And I’ve experienced the phenomenon that you have, with your system becoming WAY more sensitive to certain variables as you upgrade it to become more resolving. In my case this happened when I upgraded to Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables, from Clarus Crimson Biwire’s. I had them pre burned-in by my dealer, and connected them up late at night and was floored at the detail and the 3D soundstage depth that they exposed. Everything became clear and snapped into focus. Woke up next day and was excited to listen again over morning coffee, and…. What the hell? What happened to my soundstage depth? Everything is compressed and foggy now! I thought I might be imagining it but then I tried again late at night and again I was treated to a mesmerizing and holographic experience. After a few weeks of this I realized my incoming power is cleaner at night when my neighborhood is asleep. Bought a Torus, installed dedicated lines, and now all is (mostly) well. In that now it sounds great in the day and I can’t complain. But it STILL sounds best at night. I think most have this experience, for those who have highly resolving systems.
And to your point, after upgrading to the Valhalla 2 speaker cables, there is no doubt the differences in power cords became magnified. It’s not the highest impact component in the system, but I do find power cords can have a profound impact soundstage depth, and the 3D presentation of vocals and instruments, and the “air” around vocals and instruments.
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@wheelndeal1099 , good luck and let us know the results. Try to resist making any judgements for at least a week if not longer, and leave your system on quietly.
I always get impatient and make rush judgements when trying new gear. My final assessment after at least a week with it is rarely consistent with my initial assessment (although my amp was an exception, as it was awesome from the start and remained that way).
After burn-in and after you adjust, try removing the new cord and conditioner and then see what you think.
Also - AC noise (THD) is not something you consciously hear from your speakers in most cases. But when it’s removed, if effective in your system, you may notice a quietness that surrounds vocals and instruments that wasn’t there before, allowing more detail, air and soundstage depth to come through. I agree with others that connecting amps to conditioners is detrimental to them (except for Torus which is not a conditioner), but your results could easily vary. Nothing is a sure thing in this hobby.
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@wheelndeal1099 I find it interesting that TheCableCo found Transparent speaker cables and Nordost USB interconnects (not familiar with Wireworld). I’ve demo’d Nordost USB cords before and found them to be quite neutral. Not a personal fan of Transparent speaker cables (I’ve tried them), but I can’t say they are bad. Just not my thing, in my system. But I can’t think of why that combo would elicit such a strong reaction from TheCableCo. Did they explain this at all? Anyone else have experience with this combo? What are they sending you?
Hopefully you are trying a 1.5m or longer USB cord (as I mentioned I found 1m and in particular shorter than 1m cords compress the soundstage).
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@wheelndeal1099 thanks for relaying the suggestion from TheCableCo. That actually makes some sense. That is exactly why I went with Nordost speaker cables (speed and transparency). But I found that Nordost Valhalla 2 power cords and USB cord removed a degree of bass energy (they were otherwise very good) vs other cords so I went with AudioQuest for power cords and interconnects. I’d agree that my mix is also a split personality but in my case it seems to work as I get the best of both worlds.
Good luck, and @ghdprentice ’s advice is spot on. Especially about trying to listen too critically when changing a bunch of variables. I’ve definitely been guilty of doing that! If you turn off your conscious analysis for a few weeks, the attributes the changes make will likely come to you instead of you having to seek them out, and your perceptions will likely be more accurate.
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Not to throw another dimension into the mix, but I recently sent my USB reclocker device (Innuos PhoenixUSB) from Innuos back to have the USB connector replaced due to a somewhat loose connection. I bought the unit earlier this year as a store demo so I guess the loose connection is a result of that. Hopefully they repair it under warranty.
I mention this because I’m absolutely floored by how much I miss not having the device in my system. I don’t think I realized how much of a difference it made. In particular higher frequency detail is clobbered, making snare drums and “air” seem rolled off and restrained. I’m noticing less soundstage depth for sure.
It’s crazy to think that I have all this excellent gear but I can’t be happy with it without this one USB reclocker device, having become used to my system’s performance with the device in the chain. Ultra premium streamers wouldn’t need benefit from such a device, but wow I sure miss not having it in my system! I hope to get it back soon.
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