Not unless you want the benefit of their research in developing the Power Conditioner. Companies build their equipment using their own resources. If they build a cable they most likely developed their condition running their cable. Using another companies cord isn't a major problem as I'm sure a lot of memebers do. I run a Shunyata Component and use their cord as well.
I own and use:
PS Audio P600
PS Audio PPP
And use Pangea powercords on everything
Hope that helps.
(And IMO no you do not need to use the same companies powercord on thier power conditioner. any advertising that claims otherwise is just puffery.
i would allow that some work well with the companies own cord. but it is NOT required.
Some companies may voice the PowerConditioner with a specific cord. These are the hi-fi companies. I'd stick with whatever it came with it for a while and experiment gingerly.
Other companies, perhaps my Panamax, who go to less trouble and source the cord mainly based on price could probably benefit from a cord upgrade. I'd approach this one with a 'got little to lose' attitude. I might even start with some of Elizebeth's overstock of Pangea! hint hint.
Wow I'm really off the track. I'd never thought of power conditioner having detachable power cord. MMM Still don't know what for.
for most folks:
It is much less expensive and maybe even easier to ship if you build your conditioner with a detachable fitting and buy cords in case lots. The cord is packaged with the PC for shipping. Less labor and your not dragging a cord around during manufacture.
cost is no object and they'll experiment with cords until the money runs out.
A power conditioner is intended to "duh dut dut dahh" condition the incoming ac power. If it works, it provides a more uniform ac output with an improved amount of immunity to trash on the ac line. In other words, if your power conditioner works then it will do so with any power cord of adequate size.
Audiophiles scare me sometimes.
Some companies may voice the Power-Conditioner with a specific cord...? How do you voice a power conditioner to a specific cord. The whole idea to a power cord is to deliver proper current load and that's all. So how do you voice a power cord?Please if you respond back it up with Science.
I agree with Jeff. The idea that power cords can affect sound quality is simply ridiculous as long as they are of adequate size. A removable power cord simply makes components easier to package and install.
Ahhh.. the "all wire is the same" crowd is alive and well!
Glad to know you are still fighting for your beliefs.
I use to be a sort of non-'wires-make-a-difference' crowd, but then heard the difference, and had to abandon the 'all wires are the same' theological stance in the face of experiencing that wires matter and sound different.
It is just a hobby anyway, so please, continue the good fight to cleanse the world of the so-called fallacy of 'wires can sound different'
And just to make amends with the "all wires sound the same" crowd:
"I hereby profess that any and all differences I hear in wires is totally within my imagination, and that i further profess that I cannot actually hear any difference in any wires at all but enjoy pretending that i do so that i can be smug about spending foolish amounts of money on stupid plain old wire that I actually had been suckered into buying by sneaky and clever advertising and other insane audiophiles whom also think they can hear imaginary differences.
I still will not spend a significant portion of my budget on wires, but under 10% is not a problem in my book.
(Spend the money on the electronics instead of cords is better...)
I use Pangea Powercords,
A lot of Kimber: Hero, 8TC, KCAG... a few Nordost Blue heaven... nothing too fancy (the KCAG was bought used, when it did not cost a lot.. )
The desktops also have IEC recepticle and you can play the music from it. Thinking of 'experimenting' with powercords on desktop PC, I would also recommend swapping one in the monitor to benefit from lower EMI. You can also lower the noise floor if you get the chance to internally replace the stock one by aftermarket in your window AC unit to lower the noise floor.
For your confuser, the powersupply makes enough noise that better power may be irrelevent.
As for a better cord on your conditioner? I'm in the first camp. I use the cord it came with.
Note that I said for the audiophile, cost is no object. I think there is a comedy gig here somewhere.....'You may be an audiophile if.......'
On that basis, I'm probably not an audiophile....I'm a user of gear who at a fairly early stage said enough was enough. I tend to save my obsessive/compulsive side for other things. Maybe my photography?
I think Elizabeth may have found the middle way......which works for her.....
You're the one fighting for your belief's Liz. I am a disbeliever.
The most simple and explainable benefit to non-scientific 'philes is arithmetics: Stock one is FREE which is the best budget value and ROI.
Elizabeth, it is about where the wires are in the circuit(s) and what is in front of them.
If the thread would have been about the effect of high capacitance versus low capacitance ic's between pre amp and amp (for example) that would be a different discussion.
I received a very nice feeling of freedom and quiet when I installed a Shunyada Anaconda in my little V-Ray conditioner . I figured almost ever component goes into the conditioner so I'd make that a priority and it payed off .
Elizabeth, You said it beautifully...right up to and including your remarks about being smug about spending foolish amounts of money on stupid wire...being suckered into buying by those awful advertisers, etc, etc...you're great. No one wants to believe that power cords make a considerable difference in any reasonably resolving system and my guess is one of the main reasons is because they don't want to acknowledge another factor [of cost] in their home system pricing equations. It's so much easier AND CHEAPER to say "Of course a stupid piece of wire of adequate gauge is just as good sounding as any "designer brands"; "only fools pay for aftermarket power cables".
Elizabeth, I agree that 10% of total system costs is about right...any more than that should be funneled into equipment BUT that 10% into the cables will make a CONSIDERABLY SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT OVER STOCK CABLES and are indispensable
There is no argument or discussion here... a good aftermarket power cable of even modest cost will make an impressive, positive improvement in almost every 'remotely decent' audio system. Period.
Good night Irene.
I wish it were true but there is no way a power cord of proper size can alter an electrical signal before it enters an amplifier or component unless it uses some sort of filter. Then it would be a power conditioner instead. You can believe if you want and you will but it won't make it true. You can listen back and forth for hours, days and months and you will convince yourself it's true but it still won't be. The only way you will ever be able to prove to yourself it's not true is to do a double blind test and you won't do that because you are afraid of the truth. You cannot break the laws of physics even with six to eight feet of magic wire.
Not only CHEAPER to say but to implement as well. What's easier than doing nothing and leaving as is??
I can double blind all day long in my system [which of course I am completely familiar with] and EVERY SINGLE TIME get it right as to which is the stock power cable and which is the aftermarket. You can mix it up as often as you want, anyway you want to...you can even lie and SAY "I just swapped them" and when I listen again I can tell you that you really didn't. ANY ORDER, any combination, anytime I will get it right 10 out of 10 times...Do you need to see me do it 100 out of 100???? NO problem, I GUARANTEE I will get it right every time because I have done exactly that. In fact, I have had "Guest listeners", both experienced as well as novices who will also easily tell. The aftermarket power cable industry did not develop because enough dealers shamed thousands of dedicated audiophiles like myself into buying something I couldn't justify as a legitimate audible improvement.... I am way too confident of what my ears tell me for me to spend my limited money [which I work VERY hard for] just to impress someone that I can supposedly hear a difference or impress them with how thick my flavor-of-the-month aftermarket power cable is. I DO hear significant improvements...my guests to my room hear significant improvements and just because there are people out there who refuse to believe that it's POSSIBLE to hear improvements does not mean it isn't true. It IS true. If you don't want to believe it because you're convinced, without ever trying it out yourself, that it couldn't be true...then you have every right to your opinion but please stop preaching that you "KNOW" something couldn't be true without first trying it.
The expression "Ignorance is Bliss" is a common human state, and nothing to be ashamed of in most cases (I'll admit to the label in certain areas too...as in I can't really tell a $20 bottle of wine from a $200 bottle even though my brother in law can). But to PREACH about something being an absolute truth without ever fully investigating it yourself ("There couldn't possibly be an improvement in a bottle of wine which is discernible and justifiable for such lavish additional expense")turns a "privately uninformed" person into a public fool..... Not a good place to go. As for laws of physics, there is no scientist worth his degree who will argue that all the understanding of how we hear things is completely understood...this includes our entire hobby as well as the power cables that deliver the juice....
So, I'm not here to start another battle on this overly exhausted topic, nor do I wish to stoop to name calling (none intended) but if this is an area of interest to anyone looking to improve their system's sound for not a necessarily lot of money; try a reputable aftermarket P/C and listen for yourself how it adds to your listening enjoyment. OR : Don't... but don't preach if you haven't tried it...
If anybody remembers the last episode of 4 rooms with Quentin Tarantino, one dude also swore that his ZIPPO would light up 10 out of 10 times, but apparently lost his little pinky...:(
I've been investigating this crap for 35 years.
I would highly recommend an aftermarket power cord if the stock ones aren't long enough.
Rwwear. What are your credentials? Do you have all of your notes on experiments, equipment, procedures, methods, results? Also, what do you know about the geometry of the different winding patterns and how they relate to possible filtering of small amounts of line noise? I'd like to put this controversy to rest once and for all.
I have been in audio for approximately 42 years. I've been in the audio business for 30 years give or take. No, I have not taken notes all these years but I have listened and so have at least 5 of my friends and we've all come to my aforementioned conclusion. There are some that believe I must admit. This will always be a controversy no matter what is said.
Rwwear "Controversy" is really not the word here. There is no real controversy. When a scientist can conduct a properly designed experiment such as a controlled blind listening test with only one variable (A stock power cable vs an aftermarket one) using the scientific method (Hypothesis-Materials-Procedure-Results-Conclusion) and the results consistently conclude that a positive/verified difference can be made... then there is no controversy. It is validated FACT.
LET it GO??!
Trying to "Discount" the validity of such is not only 'sour grapes', it is UN-scientific.
"You live by the sword...."
BTW : I have also been in this hobby for over 35 years and for the first 25 I also REFUSED to believe power cables could make a difference.
Until I finally gave in enough to try it myself.
Bingo! A paradigm shift in perspective and I am now defending attacks on aftermarket power cables... Who'd have thought? (Not Me)
Have a nice day.
PS They say "It's not the last 6 feet of the incoming power journey, it's the first 6 feet your electronics get".
Who are you to tell me what to do Lissnr? If you say you can hear a difference that's fine. I don't have to prove you can't. It's like proving God doesn't exist. No one can.
There's no sour grapes here. You seem to be the one who's getting angry. I and everyone else in the audio business have cables given to them all of the time to try and we usually get to keep them. I have drawers full of them. I can use whatever I choose mostly for free. So why would there be sour grapes?
Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes...it's just a friendly discussion. I think we've all aired our opinions. Let others choose as they may.
Cable nay-sayers feel tremendous need to share their disbelieves posting even on cable forum (posting against cables on cable forum reminds me this deaf guy who answered add for music teacher just to tell them they should not count on him).
Don't be so defensive cable nay-sayers. There is nothing wrong if you cannot hear the difference. Yes, some people can hear better but it should not upset you any more than wearing glasses or being shorter.
Sometimes it just happens to be true the emperor is wearing no clothes. It's not my job to prove there is no difference between cables. There is a very small minority that believes so in the world. Audiophiles just happen to live in Bizzaro Land where if it's logical it can't be true. Like a religion it has been hammered into you by preachers of Audiophilia and cable sellers. You have to pay tithes to reach sonic nirvana. All the while someone is laughing all the way to the bank. Are you running to the bank to put money in or take it out?
It is not your job to prove anything but perhaps redeem your nearsightedness and holier-than-though attitude to thousands of intelligent audiophiles like myself who not only DON'T 'buy-in' to unsubstantiated hype but who simply trust their ears to know what's true and what's not. If YOU can't hear differences then that simply means YOU can't hear differences...it doesn't mean that I can't nor many[ if not most] people who actually take the time to listen, can't. By declaring us a small minority who have been brainwashed by preachers when the sales of aftermarket cables is a multi-million dollar industry that includes scores of manufacturers who offer take-home trial periods with full money-back guarantees if you're not completely satisfied, is not only an incorrect statement but also a direct affront to and attack on our characters as being inept/gullible and foolish. Then you tell us that this in turn qualifies us to live in "Bizzaro Land"... all because we don't agree with almighty YOU... Your arrogance about being "Right" is so laughable you should be very careful not to fall off that extra high soapbox you seem so assuredly standing on. . Declaring that we are essentially morons because we don't agree with what YOU seem to think as logical and impossible to argue with essentially reduces YOU to a glob of glue...fitting and waiting for the full gamut of [justified] derogatory adjectives which would appropriately "stick to you" if I weren't such a gentleman and on a public site where such name calling is not only inappropriate but would effectively reduce me to the status you so obviously have no regard for wallowing in.
As per the original question: it is not necessary to use the power cord of the power conditioner, there's a good chance you will find several which could make an excellent improvement in your system's sound.
Power cables make a real difference. Anyone who would like to improve the quality of their systems should be open-minded enough to try a moderately priced one or two from one of the many available companies you can find right here on Audiogon. Ask about their satisfaction guarantee and return policy...and buy with confidence. Best regards.
Fun to read... I ALREADY added my three cents to the discussion.
In a way, it is heartwarming to read folks arguing endlessly over the same sort of stuff over and over, and over...
I bet the monks and clerics in the middle ages did the same over: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
With the same muddled results.
At least no one is aguing the other side is lying! (though the argument veer very close... mistaken, fooled into believing, blind eye.. )
We just hear differently i guess.
What are you Lissnr some sort of far left zealot who gets mad because someone disagrees with them? What are you going to do next threaten my life or burn my house down?
If these differences are so great, anyone could hear them but they can't. Since we've had about 30 years of improvements in cable design supposedly, go back and listen to a power cord from back then. It would be so inferior that you couldn't stand to listen with it in your system. A nearly deaf person would be shocked at the difference in quality. Recordings made with wire from the old days would be unlistenable.
I have a friend who claimed he could hear cables too. It was funny to me and others that he couldn't hear when one of the channels was out in his preamp. I also know people who agree they can hear improvements when they can't just so they won't be ostracized by the audiophile community. I've actually had Audiogoners email me and call me to say they agree with me but are afraid to post their beliefs. I bet there are people around you doing the same. Well I'm not afraid to say it. Don't get mad. Next you'll be telling me spraying CD's with Armorall will improve their sound. Or putting a clock in the room will help. And maybe a piece of tissue under one corner of the speakers will make huge improvements.
You are right about one thing, in the small minority that is the audiophile community cables are a multi-million dollar industry. Just like some religions, they will always be there raking in the money and spreading hate to non followers.
We could argue this point forever and I don't mind. But when we get angry it's not worth it. This forum is supposed to be for enlightenment and fun.
"We could argue this point forever and I don't mind. But when we get angry it's not worth it. This forum is supposed to be for enlightenment and fun."
*No harm ever intended or implied.
*Anger is only induced by arrogance.
"If these differences are so great, anyone could hear them but they can't."
*I am amazed that someone who likely spends considerable time listening to a well constructed system can't hear obvious differences. This just proves what we have always suspected: "People hear differently"...but that's not new news.
"Since we've had about 30 years of improvements in cable design supposedly, go back and listen to a power cord from back then. It would be so inferior that you couldn't stand to listen with it in your system. A nearly deaf person would be shocked at the difference in quality".
*Ironically, the difference in stock power cords from 30 years ago and today are not very different but when you enter the aftermarket cables the designs tend to take on much more sophistication and care in quality and construction techniques...right on down to the male and female plugs/terminations. Hospital grade connectors use much better internal materials and pay more attention to the contact points inside the outlets, etc.
"I have a friend who claimed he could hear cables too. It was funny to me and others that he couldn't hear when one of the channels was out in his preamp. I also know people who agree they can hear improvements when they can't just so they won't be ostracized by the audiophile community. I've actually had Audiogoners email me and call me to say they agree with me but are afraid to post their beliefs. I bet there are people around you doing the same. Well I'm not afraid to say it. Don't get mad."
*I've discussed this point already. Anyone who spends significant money on aftermarket powercables yet can't hear a difference but feels afraid to admit it has much bigger problems than their audio system's sound.
"Armorall, clocks, various tweeks"
*There's a whole bunch of snake-oil schemes out there and many people get suckered in to trying them, depending on their relative cost/improvement ratios and a whole lot of it is absolutely crazy.... BUT Powercables are NOT one of them.They absolutely make significant positive improvements over stock cables.
Sounds like we can agree to disagree...the pc way of ending most differences of opinion, and I'm fine with that because this back and forth is getting old (and I don't type very quickly anyway so...). All I ask others following all this is to keep an open mind on it, and let YOUR own ears be the final decision-makers, no one else's should count more.
*Best regards, and happy Lissn'n
Good deal. I was done til Kijanki replied.
In reality I can wage 5:1 that you will loose on blind testing. Whould you challange nuts in my hand? I'd like to see the flop!
Marakanetz, On MY system, changing just the power cable at random, I will get it right every time. Not only have I already done it, I've had visitors do it and I'd probably bet that, while knowing nothing about you, unless you have particularly poor hearing, that you could do it too. It's THAT obvious.
I repeat, this is NOT a controversy.
Why wouldn't a better power cord on a power conditioner make it work better?
You don't need to prove it to me, I can hear the differences with the one's I've made and bought.
All power cords can have an influence on the sound of whatever component they are plugged into, so what makes a power conditioner immune?
The better power that goes into it, the better it works, just like a better power cord on an amp will work better than a zip cord type power cord.
I've had great success using an upgeaded DIY/Hybrid name brand power cord on my power supply for my Rega P9 TT.
I can't give you the scientific reason why, but you are welcome for a demo.
If it does change the sound than either power conditioner or components are designed bad.
...I just changed the house electrical service panel from Bryant to SquareD, wow what an improvement.
much tighter bass, wider deeper sound stage, and that last bit of glare is now gone.
I'm now in the process of upgrading the house wiring. Anyone know some good OFC Audiophile Romex?
I was also advised that Square D was the way to go with my service panel and am very pleased with it. I think any good OFC Audiophile romex is going to be pretty pricey (I looked). I was doing quite a bit of in-wall cabling so I decided I'd stick with the regular 12G Romex for my 20A circuits but I did do all my outlets with the very good Hubbel 5362's... again, very happy with the results. Good luck.
I'd heard of someone using cryogenic treated silver romex.
While costly, It worked quite well for the stereo performance, but all food cooked in the home took on a very slight taste described as burnt wax.
Apparently this diminishes once the silver romex is broken in. (takes at least 150 hours @ 10 amps for it to settle down)
I could swear my bacon tasted different this morning. Sure enough, after searching cooking web sites, SquareD panels add just a hint of Ginger to food cooked on appliances running on these panels.
Just proves how much we still don't understand!
The MIT Oracle AC 111 plain, unfiltered power cord will
"substantially" improve the sound of your power conditioner.
High quality silver plated copper of MIT's design.
I double dare you to try it.
Best wishes, Pete
PS I am not saying other pc's won't do well-I can only tell you the results of my experimentation with my Spectral & MIT reference (rather revealing) products.
If this is true;
"There is no real controversy. When a scientist can conduct a properly designed experiment such as a controlled blind listening test with only one variable (A stock power cable vs an aftermarket one) using the scientific method (Hypothesis-Materials-Procedure-Results-Conclusion) and the results consistently conclude that a positive/verified difference can be made... then there is no controversy. It is validated FACT."
There is a neat opportunity to get on national news or the tonight show (US) or whatever. I think there would be a lot of general interest outside the world of audio and I'd certainly like to watch it. Someone who can do this could make a valuable contribution to science as well as get a bit of instant fame.
For what it is worth, validation requires independent verification of reported results. Otherwise you get stuff like reports of successful cold fusion where measurement error was creating false results, or the guy who thought his horse could count but didn't realize that the horse was just tapping its foot on the ground until it saw him smile.
Blind listening tests have been done over and over ad nauseum. Thomas Edison did his famous "Tone Tests" in 1915 using a live singer on stage along side their recorded voice playing on an Edison Disc player. Audiences often times could not distinguish the difference. His discs, btw, had more dynamic range than today's LPs. Edison was as much a showman as an inventor.
Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like most naysayers are the ones that have never tried specialty power cords and feel justified exclaiming that the emperor has no clothes. Much of the science behind power cords, interconnects and speaker cables has been explained. It takes a good background in Electrical Engineering to understand it. So for many of us lay people, it is more of an art or even magic and ultimately a hit or miss situation. Certainly, the differences made by any changes will affect people differently. Years ago, my wife was with me to do some speaker shopping. What I perceived as night and day differences in speakers were not detectable at all by her. I could not understand how she did not hear a difference and she did not understand why I did. That's it.
I used to laugh years ago at the idea of special speaker cables. Now I have a good sum of money tied up in speaker cables and interconnects. I held off trying power cords until a few years ago. I didn't want to spend the money, but curiosity got the better of me and I tried a power cord on my CD player. I planned to send the cord back and get a refund. The improvement was too good to ignore. Now for the last couple of years, I have been toying with the idea of a power cord for my amp.
Now here is something that I have never found a good explanation for: Demagnetizing CDs. This goes back to the mid-90s. I had read a few things about demagnetizing discs back then and I finally decided to buy a bulk tape eraser to try it for myself. There again, the bulk tape eraser was $25 and I planned to take it back the next day for a full refund. The improvement made to the sound of my CDs was profound. I likened the sound of the CDs to a poorly tracking phono cartridge before demagnetizing them. How that bulk tape eraser can have an affect on something being scanned by a laser, I have no idea. Every now and then I will play a new CD without treating it- just being lazy or just to see if demagnetizing still makes a difference. It does.
"Much of the science behind power cords, interconnects and speaker cables has been explained. It takes a good background in Electrical Engineering to understand it."
You can't lump in power cords with ic's and speaker cables. Electrical engineers (like me for what it is worth) will tell you that one is connected to a device designed to accurately amplify or transmit a signal and the other is connected to a filter network designed to gobble up hash on the incoming power line. It is an apples an oranges thing.
In all honesty, if someone discovered a way to improve sensitivity of equipment by changing power cords it would be a significant technical advance and very newsworthy event. There would be great benefit and wide ranging application in medical, industrial and military equipment for example. It would be a nobel prize worthy achievement.
I've been laughed off of a couple of forums because I sang the priases of cd and lp demagnetizing.
I use a Hammond bulk tape eraser that came out of a recording studio.
Got it for free, the owner switched to digital.
I've offered several invitations to demo it's effects, but none of the naysayers have ever taken me up on the challenge.
They prefer to just deny that it works.
Or seek scientific validation of why it should.
Whatever happened to actually giving it a listen and then making up your mind afterwards?
Their minds are made up beforehand.
Anyway, I am about to embark on yet another DIY 20 amp power cord, this time with upscale Furutech connectors and wire.
I know it will sound different, but will it be better than buying a Shunyata to match the Hydra?
I just hope it comes close, because the cost of both is close.
This is the new audiophile,quite different from the ones I knew when I started on my journey 40 years ago.
Good luck with the power cord project. With one son in college and one in high school, I spend any free time I can these days just listening to music. It's hard to get the S/N level in the house down to a minimum for total musical immersion. Hey, a new term- TMI.