Music education is more than just education. It's integration, it's culture. Those who can play music can change the world. Throughout American History music has been a force towards integration, equality and justice.
To have music education is to enrich. To deny it is to impoverish. If
For these reasons and many others, I would like to encourage all music lovers to support music education at all levels, and of all kinds. Supporting public school music programs, classical music theory and history through music is to enrich us all.
When I was in elementary school in the early-60’s, even we had a school orchestra (where I learned to read music, and played snare drum). Music was considered as much a part of a well-rounded education as were math, science, and history (as well as physical education). In my high school we had both a concert band and a marching band (the drummer of The Chocolate Watchband was in both. I would see him playing at the football game in the afternoon, and at the music club that night).
The best class I had in high school was my senior year Humanities, where we learned about art, music, architecture, and all the other non-career subjects, taught by what we all realized was a surprisingly (for the time) "out" gay man (he wore an ascot instead of a tie ;-). The summer after high school I had my first job, working at a furniture rental company. When it was time to leave for college, the blue collar employees asked me why I was going to college---for what job training is what they meant. When I answered to get an education, their response was blank stares, without another word uttered. I feared they thought I considered myself better than they, which was certainly not the case. They all had wives and children, a life I was not interested in.
Subsequent generations of Californians were not as fortunate as mine, for when Ronald Reagan was elected Governor one of his missives was to cut school funding for the Arts. Did you know Neil Young was a Reagan Democrat?
Silk Road…. the cost cutting is stupid, short sighted, etc….but then just look at how our schools rate in science, math and we are so proud of active shooter drills….
Patreon is something we do including support to a studio that mentors young artists and last year trained 12 nascent recording engineers.
@jond thanks for the pointer ;-) There are still good people here…
If we are going to discuss ‘vulnerability’ in school, I think I would be more worried about the fundamentals today. Ya know, reading, writing, and arithmetic. That concerns me more than the arts.
Wow, you so perfectly show the problem with "all ____ matter" I should frame it.
Some one says "please support x"
But all letters matter, we should support all of them
But x is vulnerable
Well, the truth is we like x less than the rest of the alphabet.
And, we aren't on a site for all things, we are on a site for talking about how we play music, so this is hilarious.
Gee, I dunno, it seems like at every high school football game there is a marching band made up with quite a few students who are obviously interested in music. I never saw a marching painting or poetry squad at half time. Nor would there ever be enough students with enough talent or interest to create one a fraction of its size.
If we are going to discuss ‘vulnerability’ in school, I think I would be more worried about the fundamentals today. Ya know, reading, writing, and arithmetic. That concerns me more than the arts.
And when people say "all ___ matter" they are missing the point, and fail to support anything.
Not sure why you might think culturally music rises above the other arts and interests I mentioned.
I thought I made it clear. It doesn’t rise above, but it is the most vulnerable to budget cuts in public schools, even among any other art education. Again, this isn’t a history site or a math site, so you’d think that people on this site would be more conscientious about supporting music specifically, and boy have I been taught otherwise.
@Bkeske I hope you aren’t trying to "all arts matter" the argument.
Of course I am, because all of them do.
I had to fake playing my flute-a-phon in 3rd grade because I just didn’t get it, albeit I out-draw all my piers, and beyond.
All that said, it didn’t, obviously, detract me from making music an important art form in my life.
Not sure why you might think culturally music rises above the other arts and interests I mentioned. I also disagree with the belief all those other interests and/or arts are better funded than music. It was my innate artistic nature as a child that lead me to be interested in many of the arts, even the ones I was no good at at all, like music. Still cannot read, nor write, nor play any music, but am fascinated by it, enjoy it tremendously, and even more fascinated by composers of music. Not everyone can play or write music though, and not everyone can paint or draw, nor can everyone can design buildings (which I do now, that also includes science and math), but that doesn’t mean we cannot respect all of it. It all matters culturally.
@Bkeske I hope you aren’t trying to "all arts matter" the argument.
The main reason I made the point is that music education is often the first one to be cut in public schools and that every student deserves the chance. Science and history on the other hand enjoy considerably more support.
Secondly, we as audiophiles are consumers of music but may not necessarily stop to think about our role in it’s creation besides buying a streaming ubscription. If we love music we should stop and think about how we participate in the education and culture that creates it. This is, after all, not a site devoted to history or math or science in general but to music and how we get to hear it.
To have music education is to enrich. To deny it is to impoverish.
Well, as a visual artist, I could say the same about the visual arts. Or science, architecture, philosophy, literature, cinema, history, sports, or many other variety of things that enrich our culture.
Of course all should be supported. If you feel lead, support any/all of the above.
Music education is very important for children. Music can become both the main occupation in later life, and remain just as a hobby. It can also discipline a restless child, and make him persistent and purposeful.
It is indeed cognitively beneficial to study music, to say nothing of how it can be fun, enjoyable, teach valuable teamwork/social skills, and give some kids a reason to want to go to school in the first place.
Just because a kid is not destined for the major leagues does not mean that kid shouldn’t participate in sports, for the exact same reasons mentioned above (adding physical exercise of course)
I think I follow what your OP is about (unlike some others) and fully agree with you. We need to provide the OPPORTUNITY for our children (and especially at the younger grades! Even a simple drum circle with 3rd graders can leave a lasting positive impression) to get exposed to music, whether trying out for choir, band, or orchestra. Not only can they broaden a student’s appreciation of music, but the strong, positive social aspects such programs can provide are invaluable. Too often there is incredible outcry for proposed cuts to a school sports program, but nary a whimper when a school music program is slashed or completely eliminated. These music programs and the opportunities they offer to kids need to be wholeheartedly supported!
Music education-- to address CZ’s point- isn’t about teaching people to be musicians. It is all about exposure. Who knows, someone who has only been exposed to pop music of a specific genre may find beauty in the precision of Bach. And, it isn’t just about the warhorses of classical western music either. Music is one way into understanding culture and history. But, that kind of exposure and "education" has to come early, I think- I don’t know what public schools currently do- I gather that for some arts, the teachers are really 3d party contractors. One of our former neighbors actually built a business bringing music education to public schools in NYC. It is an amazing process when you see kids who haven’t necessarily had the opportunity and do have talent catch the fever. I’ve been involved in a few of those programs- kids that would have never been exposed to dance, music or other performing arts. This also ties into the discipline of learning more generally. Granted, this is a small fraction of the population, and even fewer are likely to go on to careers as artists. But, the more general baseline of information and exposure--everything from rural blues to classical, eastern music to some of the roots of modern rock/pop/soul can be fun and engaging. Probably not a bad thing for adults either....
Inna, Courage isn't talent. It's one of the partial derivatives. Billy Joel is clear example. He dropped out from public school early, because he had a GOAL to become musician and songwriter and decided not to waste his time and get into practicing for as long as possible. He had lots of private instructors and lots if personal courageous practice times to become world know songwriter and musician with multi-talent (Yea I can call him musician indeed).
So in math terms, Courage can be derived at least from Talent and Goal.
No talent and natural hearing for music, trust me, no Jilliard no Berkely or no any other types of music schools will accept anyone without natural talents and perhaps never will. There's no program yet in the whole world created to 'train' these qualities in young humans. So is there anyone with experience on how to 'train' hearing for music and how far it can get to make sense?
We can not support music and buy bombs at the same time, therefore music has to go. If we don't support defense "ISIS" (I forgot how to spell ALKIDA) gonna gitcha.
No matter what intellectual reasons you give for supporting musical education in public schools, the discussion here is no more than mental gymnastics.
Your OP is certainly worthwhile and Czarivey's response is what it is. I agree that making music education available to public school students is valuable - for pretty much the reasons that you state. Will that type of exposure create a musical "great" where one would otherwise not have been? Who knows? (Other than Czarivey, I guess.).
Broader cultural education is IMO a good idea that's getting lost in the cost cutting pressures of the modern world. As you note, that means that it's up to those of us who care to provide support. And I, along with many others in our community, do just that. Through pretty extensive fund raising activities for our school system, a fairly big group of active parents has allowed the school to provide music, art, and other programs that were not otherwise doable within the schools' budgets.
ivan_ Because the ones born with talent and courage want to become better or best.
One wasn't born with such may only desire and given that as a fact, ones that desire even without talent can achieve some limited results.
Providing solfeggio or music theory in public schools is mostly useless. That requires student to be able to sing over the sheet music and ones that weren't born with natural hearing for music will never ever succeed and always have bad grades.
Public schools can introduce classical music and jazz in free form listening lessons-sessions with no grading involved, but that's about as far as it can go.
Yea, all I'm sayin' is to tame your fanatic activism and think what actually can be done and HOW instead of blindly promoting an idea that is in general good, but there are known limitations to deal with. Have y'all been introduced to solfeggio or piano keyboard and at least singing basics before you start judging what's needed/not? It's HARD work for those who has talent and natural hearing for music and school such as Jilliard or Berkeley should intent to make it easier for gifted and talented. Has any of these world's known schools of music taken ones with no natural hearing of music huh?
I've been born with natural talent for music and had been picking up tunes on my harmonica since I was 4, but having no sufficient courage and parental support, I did not succeed to professional level, but at least learned to appreciate the hard work necessary to achieve a descent level of musician.
Even after you're pro, you'll need to practice and learn new repertoire on daily bases before, during and after group, band or orchestra rehearsals.
I'm not here to promote 1 single narrative about how music culture happens. Some do best in school, some learning elsewhere. I'm lucky to be able to listen to both.
Some, like Winton Marsalis, feel it is so important they devote some of their time to teach music as history, and music as culture to anyone who would listen, musician and lay person alike. This goes far beyond teaching performance, he is a convincing advocate that music is never just about music, and education isn't just about jobs and product.
Maxnewid, well said. By the way, Miles Davis quit that school after a year, I think. But he asked for his father's opinion before doing it, and though his father had doubts, there was no objection. Yes, music and other kinds of 'organized sounds' are extremely important for development, communication and sense of belonging. There are serious articles on the subject.
Thank god my surgeon didn’t go to school. He woke up one day and started cutting a PB&J sandwich and said "Hey, I’m pretty good!"
The entire San Francisco orchestra is like that too. No education at all, in fact the conductor him/hserself is really just there to keep the whining down. Truth is they don’t need him. Just a little advice from the salesperson at the music store and they were concert ready. Yep, hear it all the time. Every radio show I ever hear with great young musicians, they say this. Their teachers suck and it's by pure grit they got to where they are.
You miss half the point of music education. All of elementary education isn’t about getting a job. All of music education isn’t about making great musicians. It’s about literacy the same way that exposure to great writers from around the world is.
What good is Yo Yo ma in a world where everyone else is an illiterate consumer of whatever pablum comes down the music industry next?
Not having musically literate citizens is like having citizens who are illiterate in math or science, or history.
How many of these great musicians have made it a priority to go back and teach themselves? I think that alone speaks volumes about whether they feel music education is worthwhile, but again, music education includes history, culture, politics. It's not just about whether person X has the mojo or not.
The evidence is quite clear that exposure to music education at an early age develops better cognitive skills and not only enhances communication ability, but also math comprehension. These are skills that even if jr. is not gifted with natural born musical talents, will benefit the child the rest of his/her life. Also, in the divisive world we live in, music should be a common denominator that we can all enjoy. Not allowing children this opportunity is sad.
czarivey just may be what we'd call a "music snob"...s'cool, not uncommon at all, really.
"...Superman was born a Superman and wakes up as a Superman. Same with a musician."
Juilliard graduates, for example, have included: Miles Davis, Itzhak Perlman, Bernard Herrmann, Yo-Yo Ma and others.
I'm sure they all could've gone to any music school, but maybe you should've asked one of them, or any of Juilliard's current crop, if **they** see themselves as "waking up as a Superman" every day...I don't really know myself what any of them would in fact say, but it might be an interesting question to pose.
Great musicians have been made without music school, but suggesting that music schools have little or no positive effect on music or musicians, to me, is a bit blind.
Music isn't about education. It's about talent combined with courage and desire to learn. Talent + courage and desire = Musician.
I often blast an analogy example the last dialogue between Beatrix Kiddo and Bill when Bill explained that Superman was born a Superman and wakes up as a Superman. Same with musician.
When I was coming along in the 70’s, my high school did not happen to offer a music program, but it was an exception, most schools did. I’m sure the internet, video games and social media have changed the focus of the masses, to the detriment of other things of leisure, like listening to music or playing outdoors or whatever.
But, now more than ever, music is thought of as just a commodity...it is to be bought, sold, downloaded, uploaded, marketed - and marketed as an object of fandom or even to the point of some kind of worship in some cases...an industry always in search of the "next big thing" - and into manipulating the public to buying into that as much as possible (cruise Amazon’s music section and see what all they throw at you to induce you to buy).
But, when a young person takes the time to learn how to play an instrument, I think something a bit miraculous begins to happen...I don’t think it matters much at all if they are playing because they want to set the world on fire some day or if they just want to see if they can manage the basics and play for themselves, a huge underlying part of an **appreciation** of music can be gained from just coming to grips with the understanding of just how difficult and challenging it can be to master not just the instrument, but music itself. I don’t think that’s some kind of punishment, on the contrary, it’s enlightenment. And like the music itself, the understanding of what it may take to create it is a form of awareness. I suspect that can often be the point in a young mind at which music ceases being the commodity society continually programs us to accept, and starts to become what it really is - an art form.
As a result, a young music student may then glimpse deeper insights into what they feel music is - whether good music or bad - not because they are more "educated" than others or because they are some kind of experts at music theory, but because they’ve taken the time and energy to involve themselves directly with it’s creation.
Just the sort of antidote to the effects of a mass-market society you might like to have around, I would think.
I didn't say "not exposed to ANY music" There's a difference between having iTunes and having a musical literacy.
How does this happen? Lack of education.
Of course they are exposed to something, but the child who doesnt' learn about x type of music will never know if he/she likes it. Do we really want to leave it up to the commercial radio stations to educate our children about music and music from around the world?
Personally I grew up misically deprived had minimal exposure to music. It wasn't until I was in college that I realized how little I knew, or could appreciate.
This is something other countries feel passionate about educating their children in, and so share in the responsibility at the school level.
Of course, you don't have to think this is important. I do. I think I want to live in a country in which music is part of every child's education, one way or another, and in a culture that is continuously enriched by those students.
That’s a really odd reply. I am suggesting we spend a lot less on education than other nations, and that making music education available to all is important.
If students are never exposed to music, they can never be passionate about it. I’m not suggesting we should make musicians, or force people to like music. I am saying we are impoverishing our children by denying them the opportunity to learn at an early age. Just like we do with art or history. Music is more than something you buy. It's how you connect with and affect your peers.
In the US we spend less on music education than any other industrialized nation. That's the definition of poverty to me.
I'm a musician & can't go one single day without listening to music but you can't encourage people to be passionate about music. It's in your blood or not.
There’s no classical music theory. There’s however music theory for all types of music called solfeggio. Learning music theory without given talent of natural hearing for music is waste of time. Hearing for music can’t develop. Either it’s there or it’s not and pushing music onto public schools for everyone isn’t fair.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
