ELAC ADANTE AS-61. You will be impressed.
Please suggest bookshelf with best bass response under $4000 pr.
Lately, I've been craving deeper, tighter bass. I'd like to hear some ideas for replacing my Silverline 17.5 monitors. Is this a stupid question, due to inherent limitations of driver size imposed by typical bookshelf dimensions, or might I actually do better with another speaker? Amplification is Wells Audio 150 watt SS Majestic integrated. Source is aging Jolida JD100 tubed cdp (in new year, I plan to replace this with another SS cdp or a transport/standalone dac combo). Thanks !
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Late follow up. . . I bought an Aqua La Voce DAC, coupled with Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh re-clocker and coax cable, which made me realize there's nothing wrong with my speakers! The system, as it was configured before, simply wasn't doing justice to the speakers. Now,the bass is amazing. Round, punchy. It goes without saying that it varies from one CD to another, but, overall, the improvement is huge. The La Voce is available with different boards/chips (see their website) but as it happens, the standard board is particularly adept at bass reproduction. This was valuable lesson. |
@audiotroy: Actually, I don't enjoy trying/buying gear over and over, unlike some audiophiles I know! As I don't have a huge budget, but have very "picky" ears, I find the process quite stressful. There are no stores in the Sacramento area that offer home demos. I'm not sure whether this is the case in San Francisco, which is 2.5 hours away. Alas-- flying to NY is not a practical option for me! Thanks for the further explanation re: in-store demos, though. |
Stuarik, Yes the room plays a huge variable, however, the multitude of choices that are being mentioned is mind boggoling. For example we sell five or more brands of mini monitors, KEF, ATC, Paradigm, Athom, PSB, Legacy. When a person comes to my shop as long as we keep the variables the same you can hear the overall personality change of the speakers and each different companies product brings something else to the table. In that way it makes it easier for a person to go to the next step which would be an in home demo if that is what is required. You may love a pair of newer Dynaudio's or you may not as the newer speakers are much more transparent than yours. So unless you love trying and buying, trying and buying, etc, over and over again, going to a good dealer if there is one in your area or going to a regional show may help you find the model to take the next step with or flying into a city with many different dealers such as New York and demoing models in your price range you will have a very hard time of this. Your tastes may vary as to the rest of the posters and you may love or hate whatever people are recommending, therefore the only way to know is to go and listen to as many models that make sense with your price range, matching equipment and decor that will work for you. The path is your own, and so is your methodology and you are right that different stores are going to produce different results the idea is to try to gain a perspective as to the overall qualities of a brand as a starting point. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Wow-- a lot of suggestions, here. Thanks to all. This is a lot to sort through. The Silverlines use Dynaudio drivers, BTW. @audiotroy : your assertion that I need to go out and hear speakers brings up another point. I haven't bought any gear based upon in-store audtion for many years, following an initial experience with a system that sounded good in the store but was terribly fatiguing once I got it home. With all due respect, I don't see how that can work. Even if I were to lug my integrated, cdp and cables to a store, the room sound would remain a huge variable in the equation. If I'm missing something, please explain. @willemj : many thanks for your unflagging efforts to find a simple solution! What you suggest does sound do-able. |
Yes, the Sooner monitors are absolutely killer. I fell quite hard for them when I first heard them but the $7K asking price gave me pause. They have some of the most beautiful, expressive, and airy highs I've heard. So much so that at first I thought the mids and bass were lacking a bit, but it was just that I was hearing, for the first time, some excellent rendering from the upper mids and highs. A great choice if you can afford them. As for the power hungry Elacs (85db) I have no problem driving my 85db Clearwave Duet 6 monitors to lease breaking levels with my 90 watt Marantz integrated. 😃 That Well Audio integrated should be able to handle them. All the best, Nonoise |
Ive also heard great things about the Elac AS-61 monitors but they might just suck every amp of current from your amplifier in order to sound as they should. The Calibre mentioned earlier is also very impressive both esthetically and sonically but they’ll push you way out of your budget when considering the cost of the stands required to match their quality. Just as an aside, the monitors that keep blowing me away everyime I see/hear them at the NYC Audio Show are Sonner speakers designed and made in Massachusetts and only one model in their lineup. If you close your eyes you think they are huge floor-standers with incredible imaging and a wide and deep soundstage. Just boggles the mind how it could make this sound out of a two way pretty small monitors.The problem is they cost $10K and $12K including the stands. Probably others heard them as well at the show. |
You have some really nice monitors. If u like the rest of their sound I'd highly recommend adding a sub with some integration hardware to help them blend. Specifically, I'd get a used DSpeaker antimode 2.0 for about 500 bucks and an SVS SB1000 used for about $300 and see how that works out. My bet is you'll be in music heaven (both available here now), but if not u can sell the sub and processor for little or no loss. Short of going this route, I'd look for a used pair of Joseph Audio Pulsars, but I'd try the sub route first because you'll get the benefit of lower bass that can be so transformational to a system properly done. Best of luck. |
I second the nomination of the Elac Adante AS-61 monitors. The first shipment will be coming in sometime around 11/16-11/20 and every week thereafter. I, myself, am waiting to hear them as I liked the floor standers. They're a there way design with a sealed box, something that you don't see much of with monitors. They vent via the passive bass radiator on the front (the actual bass driver is situated behind it). You'd save $1.5K and just may like it. Another one would be the Studio Electric M4 for around the same price as the Elacs and they, too, are a sealed design. I've yet to hear them but the chatter is they are very good. I'm lucky in that I can listen to both in my area. Try to audition before you commit. All the best, Nonoise |
Spenceroo, most people don't want a pair of hideous pro speakers in their Living Rooms, you mistake what sounds good and what most people want to have in their homes. A high performance speaker should fit nicely into someone's home and decor. OP you need to get yourself to some of your local dealers and or Audio shows and actually listen to some of the newer contenders in your price range. I would put ATC, Legacy, on your list in the uber monitor range, If you really want deep bass very few speakers that are this compact hit as hard and go as low. The Wells amp is powerful enough to drive almost anything. Go forth and listen. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Stuarik You really need to go and try to hear some of your possible contenders. I think what many of the add a sub guys are failing to notice is your speakers look to be from 1998 if this is the case of course loudspeakers from today will offer more clarity. The issue of bass is as much of how the room is interacting as well as the capabliities of the loudspeakers. ATC makes screaming good monitors that are very neutral and throw a huge soundstage, they are also very dyanmic with good bass, hoever they are not that efficient, and like power, they also have very tight bass but it is not subwoofer quantity. The Dynaudio C1 are very fine monitors they only go down to 45hz and are also power hungry. If you are really looking for subwoofer level bass out of a small speaker, we were exhibiting at the New York Audio Show with the Legacy Cablire which is a bit more than your budget, however, they had unbelievable bass which was tight and room filling, the 8 inch woofer has 1 inch of linear throw so it can move some air and the speaker has dual passives. If you can squeeze up to $5500 you will be blown away be their performance and they are quite compact and stunning looking they are also efficient and play loud. The Calibre is flat down to 38hz which is very impressive for a monitor. The Calibre’s also image extremely well and use a state of the art Heil AMT tweeter mated with a fantastic Italian midrange driver. Dave owner Audio Doctor NJ |
XTZ Divine 100.33 https://www.xtzsound.eu/product/divine-100-33 you will have not only bass, but finesse, balance and all the rest |
Bass response is so much more than the speakers themselves. Placement relative to listening position, and room relative to same are critical elements. Getting the bass "right" at the MLP, is in my opinion the most significant thing in this hobby. It is very much worth the effort to learn how to accomplish this. To that end I'd be of them mind to add a sub with EQ to your existing setup. But really you should measure what's going on at your listening position so you know where to focus your attentions. A Umik1 & REW would get you there.. Others are right about the limitations of driver vs cabinet size etc.. but as mentioned above there are speakers like Golden Ear's Aon that use passive radiators to effectively increase cabinet size and bass response. One thing a lot of audiophiles either forget, or don't know is that as the frequencies get lower, our ability to hear distortion decreases proportionately and also we perceive them to be quieter relative to the rest of the spectrum. (Search Munson curve) If a speaker like the Aon is rated +/- 3db from 38hz & up it doesn't mean there isn't effective bass below that frequency, and you could probably not physically hear between 5% to 10% distortion down there anyways. The room itself can create as much as 30db swings through the audible range and usually the biggest swings are in the bass frequencies. IMO getting the bass right creates the clean canvas for the rest of the spectrum to paint on. |
There are so many really amazing bookshelf speakers e.g. Kef, BW and so on. I would try to listen to the newer Elac bookshelf speakers designed by Andrew Jones. You could save the extra money for a subwoofer (again, so many great designs) to take care of those frequencies that you can really feel. Again, check out Elacs sub offeringa as they are so cost-effective. Lastly, matching your amp to the speakers is critical and there isn't a better method than listening to the setup. If you can find the right dealer they will accommodate you. When I purchased my last speakers I carried my (heavy) tube amp to two dealers who wired it up for me to really get the sound I was listening for. Take your time... and enjoy! |
Check out Legacy Studio's Studio HD's. Strong bass down to 40Hz and a very good looking speaker that will blend in with your wife's room decor. I have compared the Studio's to Kef, Revel, and most other bookshelf speakers... At less than $2000 for a new pair in the Rosewood or Black Pearl finish they're hard to beat. |
There is nothing slow about the 8" woofer in Audio Note AN-J's. ATC sealed bookshelf speakers with proper amplification have a certain speed to them I haven't heard in any ported design. For straight up bottom end go with Isobaric designs like Neat Momentum, Totem Mani-2, various Wilson Benesch etc... |
I second PMC monitors - the newest twenty5.22 are really better than the older versions. Great sound staging and definition. Bass mass is not more than other monitors but they go lower and most important keep the PRAT (pace rhythm and timing)! If you want more bass mass try to get that with source and amplifier. Compared to monitors with 8" woofers (slower) the PMC´s are more satisfying. |
Who knows, I haven’t heard them all . That said, my Totem Signature 1’s ,2200$ new, I paid 900$ for mine 3-4 years ago do not require a sub for the acoustic jazz and classical I listen to . As most rock is engineered to have big bumps at 80 to 120 hz don’t see why they wouldn’t work there.. The Totems are solid and clear down to 50hz which is all that is required unless Bach organ pieces are your main listening fare . Even then clarity of the reproduction of the next octave above is all you need to be fully into the music . |
I faced similar domestic restrictions and opted for a B&W PV1d to match our minimalist modern interior. I think the concerns about placement and integration of subwoofers are to be taken seriously, but they can be overcome without too much difficulty. The problem is room modes, the resonances at critical dimensions of the room. With the traditional unequalized single (big) sub, finding the right spot and creating good integration is indeed hard. The solution is simple and twofold: multiple subs (two small ones is usually enough) and room equalization. Two small subs will smoothen the response because the peaks and dips from one sub’s location will not be at the same frequencies as from the other sub’s location. In practical terms, as the DSpeaker Antimode engineer told me, just push two little subs into two adjacent corners of the room, benefit from corner boost to get rid of dips/nulls, and use equalization to reduce the peaks. Using the very affordable DSpeaker Antimode 8033 is dead easy: it is automatic, and takes maybe half an hour, including reading the manual. The result is quite dramatic, changing bass response from woolly and ’slow’ to tight and ’fast’. The Antimode will also equalize the response of just one sub (as in my case) but only for a more restricted listening area. That area gets significantly larger with two. So next on my purchase list is a second PV1d, but that is another story. I would think that in a medium size room like yours, two small subs in the room’s corners would be visually more attractive than, for example, larger floorstanders (that often also introduce bass response problems). As for SVS, they have a generous return policy, so you are not risking much. Listening to subs and comparing them in a dealer's demo room is next to meaningless, because you are listening to the character of the room rather than the sub. |
willemj: In fact, the SVS is one I've definitely considered. But as I've said, when I ask salesmen about the fussiness of sub placement, they always hedge their responses, which makes me hesitate. I did read the Harbeth review. . . interesting! Will have to research whether any Northern CA audio dealers stock them. Thanks for the suggestion! |
Not even one or two really small subs like REL T Zero or the slighter larger SVS SB1000? You can tuck them away in two corners of the room and equalize the boost from the room corner. For me, the best small high quality speaker with quite decent low frequency extension would be the Harbeth M30.1, but I have obviously not heard all that is on the market. See: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harbeth-monitor-301-loudspeaker/ |
I apologize for the late response. . . RE: recommendations for Dynaudio, the Silverlines use Dynaudiop drivers, for whatever that's worth. No doubt, there are other design variations that come into play from one box to another. RE: recommendations for sub(s): I've received very inconsistent advice from sub vendors re: subwoofer placement and because I don't have many potential places to locate a sub, I've avoided going down this road. willemj: The room is about 15 X 20 and it adjoins a dining room separated by a wall that's about 5' tall (living room is "sunken") and an entry. Thanks for the detailed technical info re: subs. Unfortunately, as mentioned, I have little flexibility/space for subs and having to locate multiple subs simply isn't practical. Jon_5912: The choice of monitors rather than floor-standers was my response to inability to move furniture that would obstruct floorstanders. Unfortunately, I do not enjoy the luxury of a dedicated listening room in my present house. Hopefully, I will in the next one! Thanks to all who've suggested other monitors to try. Meadowman: Yes; I am aware of the Mini T's! They indeed look like a very promising solution but I fear WAF will be an issue. |
Why not a bookshelf like the Golden Ear AON 3 (well below your budget) ? I have heard other speakers from Golden Ear , and was highly impressed. These stand mounted speakers use the same excellent folded ribbon tweeter they use is their floor standers, and claim bass extension down to 38Hz. Also, as others have posted, you might look for a pair of good, musical subs, like smaller RELs, Golden Ear subs, JL Audio subs, or a Vandersteen 2Wq (provided your Silverlines extend down to 40Hz, and your amp has a tape loop). You can keep your Silverlines, which probably have mids and highs as good as anything you can find within your budget, |