Please help with subwoofer.

I'm considering one new Velodyne HGS 18 Series II with a 1200 watt amp ....or two Velodyne F-1800 with 600 watt amps. My room is 22ft wide and 70 ft long with 22 ft high ceilings....carpeted concrete floors and concrete ceiling....the building was once a beer brewery and has been converted to live-in lofts. Will the one Velodyne HGS 18 do the trick or will the two less powerful F-1800's be better. The cost for one new HGS 18 is the same as two used F-1800's...$2000. I've never owned a sub before and I'd appreciate your input....thanks.....Mitch

Preamp..............Audio Research LS-10 solid state (no phono input)
Preamp..............Carver C-19 Tube (I have it connected to the AR LS-10 and use it for a phono preamp)
Main Speakers............Infinity Kappa 9 (bi-amped)
Amp.................Carver Silver 9-t monoblocks (low pass)
Amp.................Sunfire Signature (high pass)
Rear Speakers.......Infinity Kappa 7
Center Speaker......Infinity Kappa Series II center
Amp (rears).........Carver TFM 42
Amp (center)........Carver TFM 42
Phonograph..........Oracle Delphi Mk-I
Cartridge...........Grado Reference Platinum
CD Player...........Carver SDA/360 5 disc changer
Tuner...............Sansui TU-X1
Surround Processor....Technics SH-AC5000
Television............Sharp 32 inch
How about using REL and hook it (them?) up for HT and two channel, gaining advantage for both systems. There is a REL Stadium for sale here on Audiogon for under 2K, it would definitely do the job.
Albert....What is the relationship of woofer size and amplifier to bass production? I looked up the REL specs and the Stadium III is a 10 inch woofer with a 300 watt amp. The Velodynes that I'm considering offer an 18 inch woofer and a 600 watt amp for the F-1800 and a 1250 watt amp for the HGS 18....Are the REL's that prodigious in their bass output? A seller is offering a pair of Velodyne F-1800's for $2k. Will the 10 inch driver in the REL deliver the goods in a room my size?
There have been a number of threads posted on this subject. I have not made the test between these two but the general consensus is that the crossover is as (or more) important than the speaker itself.

You have a very good speaker in the Infinity Kappa. My idea was to cross the REL below the cutoff point of the Kappa for stereo and at THX crossover point for HT.

My understanding is the REL hooks up both ways at once and does double duty for those of us that have high end stereo but want HT too.

No doubt the Velodyne will produce terrific bass output, and perhaps the better of the two for HT. I don't think it can match the REL for integrating into the Infinity, so you may have to make a choice of which system to favor.

Others with more experience on this subject may offer an opinion. Perhaps the REL I suggested is one model below what would work best for you?
Albert......for music, I'm content with the bass output of the Kappa's. The only reason that I'm even considering a sub or two is that when I use the Kappa 9's when playing dvd's....the bass onlslaught sounds like it is going to rip my speakers apart and I fear for the lives of my speakers..I'm talking about dvd's like 'Gladiator' and other dvd's that have that killer bass and gut wrenching explosions. So, integration for music is not an issue, this is strictly an HT thing. Right now I just want relief for my mains and fix the HT bass issue. I'm pretty new to HT. Maybe in a year or so when I get some more money, I'll start experimenting with subs to augment my 2 channel setup. Thanks Albert for your input. Anyone else here care to jump in?
If its only for movies then I would go with the two F-1800 set up. Thats a big area and you need to move a lot of air so I think you would do better with the two sub set up. One thing thats nice to try with two subs is to put one up front and one in the rear.Wire the rear sub out of phase with the front one, makes the bass roll threw like a wave. enjoy
I generally recommend 2 subs over 1. They are much easier to place and get a flat frequency response. For HT placing them mid way across a wall and the other on the opposite side of the room will give you the flattest frequency response. In addition to this I think the F series subwoofer sounds better than the HGS (I know many will disagree with me here, but the HGS sounds like a motor to me). If you go to our website,, and enter the listening room (it's throug acoustical issues), there is a button for speakers. Go to that page and there's a link that will give our methods for speaker placement, including subwoofers. We will be updating that paper in the upcoming weeks, but it's still very useful now.
Hello Mitch,
Let me add my 2 cents if I may. Intergrating a subwoofer has 2 major challeneges. (Audiogoners don't have problems, only challenges). One would be crossing the sub over to the mains, the other is that damn room resonate point that howels like a Kansas timber wolf when there is a full moon. Lets look at the cross over issue first. I've owned a FSR-18 velodyne and found it very flexible to intergrate. The FSR and HGS Velodyne's give you the option of shutting off the crossover in the sub and using the crossover in your HT processor. Usually the crossovers are superior in the HT processor than in the sub, so as Albert pointed out use the best crossover available. Also if you are using the sub out from HT processor and also have the crossover in the sub engauged, the two crossovers will bang off each other raising all kind of hell. If you eventually pick a sub that DOSE NOT allow you to turn off crossover then dial the cut off up as high as it will go, lets say to 100hz or 120hz. This will move the sub's crossover point futher away from the HT processors's crossover and cause less ringing from the two crossovers colliding. So in short use the HT processor's superior Xover (as suggested by Albert) and shut the Xover in the sub off. The Velodyne FSR and HSG series allow you to do this. I'm not sure if the Velodyne F series has this ability? For regular 2 channel intergration I ask use to search Audiogon member Danner's post on 11-20-02 about picking a crossover point relative to the subs -3bB. Next point howeling Kansas timber wolfs'( room resonate points). The size of your room will dictate the lowest possibe frequency that your system will produce. That would be the length (peak to peak) that will physically fit into the room. Possibly Mr Rives can expound on this, but in short my 16x27 HT room can go down to about 25hz. Your 22x70 room will probably go down into the single digites. Thats a good thing as Martha would say. Now when everybody gets excited and brags about their sub shaking and rattling the room, sorry wrong answer !!! You are only hitting the rooms resonate point. That not a good thing. The smaller the room the higher the resonate point. My friend Luc from Canada has a smallish room, I believe its about 12x20. His room starts to sing between 70 and 80hz. My 16x27 room seem to have a nasty howel around 45 to 50hz, your 22x70 room should have a much lower resonate point do to its size. Thats a good thing. I think many newcomers confuse the room resonate problem (muddy base) with the crossover problem. two seperate issuses. Room resonate problems can be aided by careful speaker placement and the addition of a second sub to help smooth out standing waves. The addition of a second sub will also increase the bass output by 3dB, again a good thing in you hugh room. If you are looking at a pair of F1800's your problably involved with that WILD MAN, audiogon member Porschcab. he seems to be having a blast putting together his HT. One burning question for Dan if you are on board, why o why did you sell that Theata Cassablanca 2 with extreme dac's??? One last point I think often overlooked. Don't buy a cheap cable to run to your sub . It will probably be the longest cable in your system and your biggest antenna for picking air born noise generated in your room. Spring for some thing with a good shield to reject as much RFI as possible. Also the Velodyne's have noisey switching power supplies, which will send noise back down the power cord and also balloning back into the room only to be pick up by other sensitive equipment. I've had excellent results when switching from the stock Velodyne power cord to the ESP's I use throughout my system. Hope this helps. I'm sure others will have some comments both pro and con to what I've said. Welcome to the jungle.
Good Luck

Ps: Am I the one who said we don't have problems only challeneges look how many times I used the word problem in my post. What a huckelberry I can be at times!

PPS: Albert congradulations on your Texans totally embarrasing my New York Giants yesterday.
Davehrab, I am not a follower of sports, so I was unaware of our Texans doing well against the Giants.

I am impressed with your comments above though, much to think about for the HT challenged. I keep mine simple and concentrate on stereo.