Pioneer Direct Drives - Now and then?

Could you tell me why Technics released a "clone" of their own great original design instead of making a new own great original design? I am simply not a fan of 1200 (and its clones including Pioneer) design. Why wouldn’t they release a nice turntable that does not look like their designer got fired on the day the project development started. 1500C is much better attempt at design, but lacking in final execution.

We discussed this issue here when they released new line of turntables.
When SL1200GAE was out no one could imagine Technics will make cheaper G, GR, mk7 and 1500 series soon. And no one can imagine SP10R as the reference deck from Technics.

The answer is very simple:
Technics just made a newer version of their iconic SL1200mkII+ series, simply because it was the most popular turntable in the world (they sold millions of them like no other brand in the history). The reason why SL1200 mkII - mk6 were so popular is obvious - only because of the the club culture, SL1200mkII became reference DJ turntable since the early 80’s worldwide, it is an industry standard for professionals (clubs or radiostations).

But it was originally made as a Hi-Fi component. This model almost immediately replaced belt-drive Thorens turntables used by the first disco deejays in the 70’s (at studio 54 and in many placed in NYC). Technics appeared to be ideal for DJing, it was robust, made like a tank with powerful Direct Drive motor. And Technics made a pitch control +/- 8% as a fader (not a knob). It was groundbreaking turntable for night club industry and dj culture (and still is).

So why do you think Technics should have to ignore their iconic model when their own master plan was to make SP-10R a bit later anyway? They just updated everything, released different turntables for different categories of people (including deejays and audiophiles).

For the most critical listeners they made SP-10R and SL1200GAE

Vintage Pioneer is much better turntable and much more expensive. If you want the best from Pioneer then look for Pioneer Exclussive P3a series, but prepare tons of cash. If you want a decent Pioneer Hi-Fi look for PL70II (used).

New Pioneer is a company primarily oriented on professional market. Pioneer is the manufacturer of audio equipment for clubs (professional multimedia players like CDJ, mixers, vinyl turntables). This is the reason why their turntable is not a re-issue of Pioneer own turntables from the past, but just a "clone" of Technics for lower price, it’s not bad but it was valid only before Technics returned to the business with their iconic turntables adored by professionals and audiophiles, now on the low side you can buy brand new Technics mk7 for about $900 (or any higher Technics models if you wish to, including top of the line SL1200G or SP10R).

The difference between Pioneer strategy and Technics strategy is obvious. Technics made audiophile gear like SP-10R (the best direct drive available today new). Pioneer did not make anything equal to their old Pioneer Exclussive p3 or even p10 yet.  

Chosing between these 3 turntables I think *1st one is the best:

Technics mk7 $999 *
Denon VL12 PRIME $899
PLX-1000 $649

But you can’t buy a turntable you’re looking for, and a proper cartridge, within $1k total.

A good cartridge alone is about $400

What’s your budget, Erik?
PL50L is cheaper

With inexpensive Technics SP-20 you could build your own turntable buying tonearm separately, with custom plinth etc.

Here is what i put together for a friend locally.

@chakster  I understand that the opener is looking for entry level turntables and not turntables top level. 

@best-groove maybe, but anyway it's nice to see the whole picture
Pioneer was great in the past, i'm still using their top MM cartridge. 
Japanese archive is here

I think Yamaha GT-2000L is great, can be $3k but black version is 50% cheaper.
I believe you’re referring not to GT2000 model ? @jl35

"I’d like to spend $1000 or less, given I may buy like 5 records."

LOL, but we have another thread where a gentleman asking is it worth to spend $10k just for the phono stage. Welcome to the analog world.

Another person in another thread asking what to do with pre-owned vinyl ? (1000 LPs of Jazz, R’n’B, Gospel and Classical music).

I owned the PLX-1000 for a spell. Contrary to fanboy myth, it does sound and perform just as well if not better than the fabled 1200 MKII. Also feels like a higher quality machine in my opinion.

Did anyone advice an old SL1200 mkII here ? The Pioneer is exactly on that level, maybe a bit better. Most of audiophiles here must be ashamed because PLX-1000 was made for DJs/Clubs to replace Technics (at that time Technics was out of business).

NEW $999 Technics mk7 is better than Pioneer PLX-1000. The price is very close and it’s worth to pay the difference for an elegant looking brand new Technics mk7 with the latest DD motor (not a bad clone from Pioneer for lower price).

I think to get a DD that’s significantly better you’d have to spring for the 1200GR.

Not necessary to buy GR for $1700, just mk7 for $999 is enough to outperform Pioneer PLX-1000

Let’s face is: Pioneer copied Technics look to serve clubs/djs because Technics SL1200mkII+ was/is a pro tool, an iconic turntable in this category since the 70’s.

An old Pioneer design from the 70’s was better but Pioneer is not gonna make a re-issue of the Exclusive series models, that’s too bad, because this is an original Pioneer iconic design for audiophiles!

Before the reviewers remember what is Technics and Pioneer we’ve been using them for decades while they have been messing around with their funny looking modern belt drive turntables. 

I’ve been using Technics turntables for 25 years, the SP-10mkII was my reference, but even my very old and fully upgraded SL1210mkII (pair) is still here and perfectly working without any service in 25 years! This is Technics made in Japan quality.

I think the SL 1200 Mk7 has the older iron core motor from the older 1200 series. Which is one reason why it is so relatively inexpensive.

@lewm this is why i recommend Technics for the newbies, no one can compete with this brand in terms price/quality today on Direct Drive territory. The price for this mk7 with new coreless motor is $999. I’m not sure how anyone can buy a better brand new turntable, even belt drive turntables are more expensive and it’s the biggest mistake to accept their price for belt drive. Technics mk7 is the best deal when a user looking for complete turntable with nice tonearm (vta on the fly) with removable headshell, with warranty etc. This mk7 can be easily upgraded with some inexpensive tweaks (better mat, fluid damper if needed, maybe even rewire). But at $999 it’s great start and a ticket to Technics world of perfection.

Direct Drive Turntable System SL-1200MK7:
Coreless Direct Drive Motor Achieving Stable Rotation

"The direct drive system uses a slow-turning motor to directly drive the platter. This system has various advantages. It offers high performance, such as rotation accuracy and powerful torque, does not require replacement of parts and maintains high reliability over a long period of time. On the other hand, the direct drive system was said to produce a rotation irregularity called cogging. For the SL-1200MK7, a new coreless direct drive motor was developed. This motor employs a coreless stator. The removal of the core (iron core) from the stator eliminated the root cause of cogging. Furthermore, the magnetic force of the rotor magnets was improved to the highest possible level, and the gap between the coreless stator and rotor magnets was optimised, thus achieving high-torque-performance equaling that of the SL-1200MK5. Boasting smooth rotation and powerful torque, this motor reproduces sound accurately and faithfully from the groove on an analogue record."

MORE SPECS

This is better turntable than new Pioneer. It was Technics answer to all the cheap clones other brands copied from iconic SL1210mkII when Technics was temporary out of business in this category. 

I have no respect to the brand that copied Technics look instead of creating something unique. But the target audience for those brands was djs/clubs where the price is the key point (and where the Technics is iconic turntable), so it was a compromise. Now it makes no sense at all to buy Pioneer. 

In what way is it better?

@glupson, did you ever compare Pioneer and Technics?

I did that and i will tell you while the old SL1210mkII and Pioneer PLX-1000 can be compared and this is where the Pioneer can be slightly better, because an old SL1210 mkII had some weak parts (which can be easily upgraded by the user himself).

The mk7 is a brand new turntable with new CORELESS MOTOR, new tonearm, new footers, new cabinet, it’s entirely different, no weak parts like in old SL1210mkII from 20th century. It is also much better design.

The mk7 is simplified version of the SL1200GR and reference SL1200G. It has nothing to do with an old SL1210 mkII, except the same dust cover.

Pioneer is competitive only with old Technics from SL1200mkII to SL1200 mk6 (and everything in between).

But Technics mk7 is the answer to Pioneer and all the clones you can find in every store like, click here and try to ID where is the Technics between all those Technics clones from many other manufacturers.

If you like Pioneer you should start with PL-70II - this is an original High-End turntable made by Pioneer in the 70s.

Could you tell me why the Pioneer released a "clone" of Technics instead their own great original design ?

Denon, for example, never tried to copy Technics look when they made something for audiophiles (not for clubs/djs like Pioneer), this is Denon 100th Anniversary turntable (specs are here) and here is another Denon for DJs. Both are entirely different.

If Pioneer could make a re-issue of their classic Exclussive series i’d love to buy one (but the price could be insane).

At the moment only Technics can do that, because the SP10R pretended to be superior to the SP10 mkIII. And still reasonably priced! 

great post @markmay 
LOL

Everyone says that you’ll need to adjust the arm bearings right out of the box.

What ?

"Turntable is good, just adjust tonearm bearing" - it sounds like a nightmare, how an amateur can adjust tonearm bearings? 

@dancole

I’ve got a Pioneer PLX-1000 on my #2 system...... I bought that turntable because I always wanted to try a direct drive.... Of course, the word "nearly" can hide a lot of significant differences, and there are some between the Pioneer PLX-1000 and the Technics 1200MK7. Some of those differences actually would appear to favor the Pioneer. It’s 7 pounds heavier, has more initial torque, and less Wow and Flutter. On the other hand, its tracking error is 1% higher than the Technics. I don’t how much, if at all, these specification differentials reflect audible differences in performance.

It’s like reading the specs without actual comparison test. The trick is how did they measure. The specs alone will not tell you much. You have to compare Pioneer and Technics side by side and if you already like Pioneer (which is good for the money) you will love Technics mk7, because Pioneer is just a blueprint of older Technics with minor tweaks.

Both turntables are high torque and this minor difference in torque is irrelevant.

The main difference is CORELESS DIRECT DRIVE motor on Technics mk7, GR, G, GAE, Anniversary, SP-10R - this is revolution at the price Technics offering this motor in many new models today.

Pioneer does not have a Coreless DD Motor and this is all you need to know.

While the Technics Coreless Motor is High-End motor, same motor utilized is reference SP-10R model, the Pioneer PLX-1000 is 100% DJ turntable (designed and made for clubs/djs) with average good DD motor (not a High-End motor).

The pinnacle of HIGH-END Direct Drive is CORELESS MOTOR. This is the heart of the well engineered DD.