Just ordered a new phono preamp from Jolida (J9II). Is there a break in process I should be aware of? Or do I simply play normal and realistically believe that it will open up as time goes on. Also, how much can one expect this pre will improve over time?
"I wonder how designers of well regarded "active" speakers deal with the vibration issues with amp in the same space (essentially) as the drivers. Sort of kicks that issue out the door."
That’s an excellent Strawman argument. First, who’s says active speakers are well regarded? Second, who says they don’t address vibration? Besides speaker crossovers in conventional speakers are not immune to vibration, either. They aren't immune to the rather large magnetic fields, either.
I wonder how designers of well regarded "active" speakers deal with the vibration issues with an amp in the same space (essentially, although there could be some damping of something) as the drivers. Sort of kicks that bit of mythology out the door.
Surge, you comment seems dismissive to the point of displaying a simple lack of high-end experience.
In that, I just got back from a friend’s house where he had a very nice set up including Pass Labs amplification, Wilson Sasha 2’s, a VPI classic 3 turntable (that I had set-up), and a mishmash of good old interconnect cables, speaker cables, and power cords. Overall, his sound was very good, natural, and convincing. It had a nice relaxed feel and we could just focus on the music, playing record, after record.
Well he finally had the chance to break down and drop some serious dollars on a real nice full loom of Tara Labs cables. By all rights, this should take his kit to a much more refined level of performance overall. So we couldn’t resist, we stripped out all the old stuff, put these new ones in cold out of the UPS box, and guess what? The sound was completely confusing both timbre and soundstage where a complete harsh, smeared mess, the system was unlistenable and a total waste of time, I mean, down right nasty. Two days later? Still unlistenable.
I have been here so many times. I told my friend that we either needed a burner service or we would have to do it the long hard way by downloading a sweep track or use a burn CD and let these run for a week or two without listening.
The bottom line here is that the more resolving a system is, and the more experienced your ears become, burn-in is more easily recognizable as a real necessity, not just voodoo, or a figment of someone’s imagination. One could not just have plugged them in and sit down and enjoy the music. (And this is no reflection on the cable maker or dealer. It is just a matter of fact and I have no doubt that once they are burned in, we will experience killer performance like many of their cables I have experienced before.)
Following this thread has lead me towards ‘burn-out’. Regarding ‘burn-in’, as a function of use, if we did not follow the process, we needn’t purchased the product.
Of course there is break-in required to get the best out of ANY electric or mechanical gear! It's ludicrous to think otherwise. But how long and how much difference it will make varies.
But who cares? Just enjoy it from hour 1 and know it will improve!
Don't waste time "burning in". Just enjoy it from the start.
Life is already too complicated to worry about this.
Well, there are obviously lots of reasons why a system might lack focus including, but are not limited to, lack of vibration isolation, lack of sufficient or correctly placed room treatments, disregard for cable and fuse directionality, disregard for absolute polarity of the system, there is at least one problem in the system, disregard for the magnetic field produced by large transformers, insufficient damping of circuit boards and CD transport mechanism and non optimum speaker locations.
After reading these posts again I do recognize something I should not have done. To say that your system lacks focus. I actually prefer tube systems over SS for just that attribute. I was able to put together my Idea as SS only because there are some advantages especially in the area of output drive capacity. I have built hybrids with tube front-end and SS out. Part of my goal was to match if I could the awesome micro / inner detail of a good triode. I was able to do that with SS. That's a miracle all by itself :) I think we are on the same side - we all enjoy great sounding music.
I apologize if I rub you the wrong way or any other readers for that matter.
As time goes on and others are added to the number of people who have had a chance to hear what I have been trying to describe, it will become self evident as to the advantage (or not) of such a system.
A 1964 recording no doubt with tube mic preamps. Good stuff! BTW I have designed with tubes as well and often thought of how an H-CAT circuit made of tubes would perform.
I have also thought about sticking a 12AX7 out of the top of my SS preamp with just the heater hooked up. (Sorry - I couldn't resist)
"geoffkait, so you’re the one. Organic neuron stimulation? telepathic-enabling technology?... like in the film Æon Flux?! That’s way cooler then this gear thing."
I prefer to think of myself more like in the film The Men Who Stare at Goats.
Roger_paul...There's a smell of paternal condescension in your posts that some may find annoying, including myself. So...my balanced pre-amp to tube power amp system sounds fabulous with rock solid imaging, clarity, punch and tonal accuracy. Lucky me! I only mentioned my current and past live sound gigs to make a point about live music…I hear a lot of it. Describing issues my (and others who lack your alleged remedy) system must have is silly, as you haven't heard my system. Last night I was listening to a really sweet 1964 LP of Benjamin Britton conducting some of his and Hayden's music, and I could hear every damn musician with no "blurring" or what you describe as the "grey" background, so your assumptions are simply irrelevant regardless of the florid terminology you feel compelled to add to your diatribe. Rabid self promotion with sketchy theories that conveniently only you are privy to make you seem more than a little insecure.
With all due respect, let me clarify a few things.
wolf - The
"same as live" concept is irrelevant
If you
are listening to a live band on stage and you turn your head – what happens to
the band members? Do they follow your head and stay in front of your face? No.
Their
positions on stage are fixed. The drum set is still sitting where they set it
up.
The
stability I’m referring to does not have to do with turning your head – instead
its how you perceive their location while listening. When there are problems
with velocity, the resulting image is out of focus. You have a good idea where
the drum set is but not the exact location. When the focus becomes sharp and
crystal clear you begin to identify the exact locations of each drum in the set
separately.
wolf - (I’ve
mixed and recorded hundreds of live concerts from Richie Havens to the
Baltimore Consort)
I am no
stranger to recording. I have built
recording studios in the ‘70s. I also
recorded Duke Ellington live.
wolf -"black
backgrounds" exist in a vacuum only. We really have to ban the "black
background" term…really…perhaps the most overused and patently useless
audio bullshit term since it appeared a few years ago.
You can
have an amplifier that is dead quite when no music is playing. There is a big difference between noise at
the noise floor and noise that appears when music is present. What I am I
referring to is the simultaneous projection of sound objects into space while
STILL having a black background (like a canvas). That scenario is difficult if
not impossible to achieve with conventional amplifiers. Conventional amplifiers
produce a phase noise while trying present sound objects in your image. Objects
that are side by side on stage have clear air space between them. If your image
is out of focus (and it is) the blurry portion from both will overlap to some
degree and not allow the output to drop all the way down to the noise floor. This
results in a “grey” background. Once the music stops – it returns to a black
background or at least as quiet as the noise floor. That should be happening
between individual notes but it doesn’t.
geoffkait, so you’re the one. Organic neuron stimulation? telepathic-enabling technology?... like in the film Æon Flux?! That’s way cooler then this gear thing.
"Handler... connect me to, Elvis Costello’s - Red Shoes"
Funny you should say that. I actually don’t use an amplifier. Or a preamp. Pretty ironic since you're the big amp guy and I'm a non amp guy. Let me riddle you this: is no amplifier better than any amplifier? I also eschew fuses, transformers, interconnects, house AC, power cords, speaker cables and digital cable.
All you need to start with is a new power amp - it has the most difficult job of maintaining constant velocity with linear gain that cannot vary (at all). It has built in Auto-Focus
You will be back for the preamp.(also no distortion w/ Auto-Focus)
I actually have eight - count ’em!! - products that reduce distortion in the sound. None of these products affect the audio system per se - not the electronics, not cables, not the house AC, not the house wiring, not speakers, and not room acoustics. Did I leave anything out? So, no matter how well you do with reducing, ameliorating, attenuating, or plain getting rid of distortion everywhere else, including the amplifier, there is a long way to go. Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.
I'm sorry for the confusion. I may not have properly explained this phenomenon. Its all in the viewpoint. I have more experience in the field of distortion than anyone. (Bold statement? Yes) Its because I have studied in great detail what happens to a signal as it passes through an amplifier circuit. A good 30 years of research just on this one aspect of amplification. It has been my goal to find any error whatsoever and deal with it in real time. For that reason the technology I am using is years ahead of any other attempt at analog amplification. There are no man made tools available to show what has been going on. That's why it is pure theory.
This is why I am able to claim the complete removal of distortion. The effect of having no distortion is like nothing ever heard by audiophiles. The reaction of those who are exposed to this is unanimous. Shock followed by great joy in what they hear.
I might add that I am quite humbled by what I have discovered and thank God for his help.
Everything I post is fact - with hard evidence to back it up.
I am in the process of responding to wolf's comments and will take one statement at a time to explain what happens electronically vs what happens acoustically.
The mystery is gone and I am trying to share my findings with audiophiles who are the first to take advantage of this body of work. Poking fun at a process because it is not understood is not helping anyone.
The reason it sounds odd to describe what you think is your understanding of distortion is because there has been new information revealed that explains the missing links between what seems to be a straight forward process and one that actually encompasses the total process including errors the have gone unnoticed. (Not found in the text books - sorry) The amplifying process was never taken to its limit. I took it there.
The confusion is not on my end.
BTW - "what you think" (I'm not referring to you cleeds)
roger_paul " ... in
order to have speed variations on the turntable the are like those found
in amplifier, your TT speed (33 rpm) would have to speed up to 66 rpm
in order to produce a harmonic of what ever is in the groove.
Amplifiers
that can generate energy at 2 Khz from a 1Khz fundamental experience a
very rapid change in velocity causing the fundamental to "slide" up the
spectrum and be seen at 2khz and then slide" back to 1Khz. If it does not slide - then it is digital not analog"
You sound very, very confused. Good luck to you in sorting it all out.
The "same as live" concept is irrelevant, except you can shoot for timbre and room feeling I suppose (I’ve mixed and recorded hundreds of live concerts from Richie Havens to the Baltimore Consort), and "black backgrounds" exist in a vacuum only. We really have to ban the "black background" term…really…perhaps the most overused and patently useless audio bullshit term since it appeared a few years ago. Maybe "noiseless" is OK…still…the world has ambient sound in it, and "hearing a venue" sort of makes my point. It does. Trust me (!). Is an image stable when you move your head? No, it’s not, but again…live images as a reference are often vague unless you’re sitting on the stage with the musicians (I argue this point often). Good hifi lets the results of the recording engineer’s panning (and mic placement) or lack of same shine through…I get it (and, I do it). I also think great music makes any decent system "disappear," and I have piles of actual acoustic instruments I can play that are within several feet of my "listening" audio rig (and surrounding my home recording rig) and I know what they sound like…I can make un-miked live natural wooden acoustic instruments distort in your face (uh…is that a capacitor or your MAMA), and they come from a "black background" only in somebody’s imagination.
I don't know if it was mentioned yet but one of the biggest "break-in offenders" is capacitors. Some Teflon caps are notorious for taking multiple hundreds of hours and they go through weird stages along the way. They sometimes get worse before they get better. I won't get into the why's here (I'm guessing there were contentious statements both for and against, and I don't have time to discuss).
Most capacitors are not like this however and 50 hours 'll do ya fine. It doesn't hurt to get the manufacturer's take on this.
Jim Hagerman used to sell an inverse RIAA circuit. I don't know if he still does. It allowed you to run a CD signal into your phono stage (dropping the gain by ~44dB and inverting the RIAA eq) so you can hear music amplified through it. 50 hours occurs a lot faster when listening to CDs vs. changing 150 record sides ;-)
Of course, if it sounds fine out of the box, it will only get better (one would hope), so you needn't jump through hoops unless you want to.
Well, yes but only the live performance anyone could have, Glitter & Doom is on both vinyl (my preference) and redbook CD and is an excellent selection of songs from many (if not all) of the venues in this tour. Two things to keep in mind, Mr. Waits only tours about every seven years or so, and, he is usually very picky about finding nice old opera and concert venues to perform in. His musicians are exemplary as well. If you don’t, you really should own this recording. It is a treat. And it may play very well into what your amp is doing.
r_f, I am also fan of
Tom Waits. Do you have a recording of him live? I know the engineer that recorded Bela fleck and the Flecktones and have the live recording of them in Africa that is truly amazing.
When you hear music through a distortion-free system, the experience is not subtle. In fact Norm, the reviewer, has told me when he plays Basie at the Sands - he can literally recall the room they were in. The layout was identical and every detail of the performer and audience could be heard as natural as when he was there,
It will recover the original venue in every way. As you can probably tell at this point It is difficult to explain to someone what they are about to hear. Your speakers produce acoustic energy based on an actual "re-enactment" of the air pattern present at the time of the recording. The most important property of the playback is the speed that sound waves are released from your speakers. Sound has 2 properties - pressure and time. The waves flow as if uninterrupted from the stage.
When you system appears to have nothing to do with what you are hearing - then its right. Sound objects are lifted away from the speakers and float in space. The speed is locked at Mach One and there is no sonic signature. You cannot tell if it is tubes or transistors. The image is 100% stable (same as live) and it comes out of a jet black background.
I wish I had more demo units to send out - people end up keeping them. I don't know where you are located but I do plan to show at Newport Beach in June. Almost all the editors of top magazines have agreed to see what the fuss is about including 4 of the top movie makers.
I have sat in glorious orchestra and opera halls. I have had chamber series seats for years, nearly a decade, working my seats to a position about nine rows back, just left of center. I know what acoustic music sounds like live and what horse-hair plaster walls sound like. I rarely weep at a performance, but in Birmingham's Alabama Theatre on July 3 2008 I had the extreme good fortune to have a first row, just left of center, mezzanine seat for Tom Waits Glitter and Doom. What can I say? It was my only occasion to see Mr. Waits live. Screw stereo reproduction, this was the real thing, flesh & bone. Sorry but, I am yet to be thrilled by the sound of a box of gadgets like I was that night... Was there audible distortions or a smearing of the sound stage? I guess, I was so caught up in the performance that I couldn't have cared less. It got behind the mule!
Knowing that something was still in the way led me to use pure theory to suspect what was happening. I put velocity traps in place hoping to catch the tiny errors that again were just theoretical. I was delighted to see (hear) it work and It confirmed what I thought was going on. Look up miracle in the dictionary.
Demonstrating the result as a live full orchestra to a few people at the factory left everyone speechless and weeping.
r_f_sayle " ...Perhaps whatever we hear is all that matters.
I do not derive any pleasure from numbers, or being 'right'.
Your
statement is most accurate, yet if I'm musically fooled and happy (in
front of my Hi-fi), is it not a better place to be than scientifically
baffled and frustrated and somehow not into the music?"
Oh, we agree completely! For me, the music is more important than the numbers. I'm grateful that we have audio engineers who do most of the work for us! All we have to do is assemble the components, tweak and listen.
What I was responding to was the claim by roger_paul that he had detected some form of distortion that cannot be measured. That's just a silly claim. Almost by definition, if it can be reliably detected, it can be measured.
Well I see where you are going but it is not the same thing. For example in order to have speed variations on the turntable the are like those found in amplifier, your TT speed (33 rpm) would have to speed up to 66 rpm in order to produce a harmonic of what ever is in the groove.
Amplifiers that can generate energy at 2 Khz from a 1Khz fundamental experience a very rapid change in velocity causing the fundamental to "slide" up the spectrum and be seen at 2khz and then slide" back to 1Khz. If it does not slide - then it is digital not analog.
The reason it is only a small percentage of distortion is because the segment of the 1 Khz sine wave the experiences the non-linear event is brief. Energy from the fundamental cannot exist in two places at once because it is an analog continuum. This can be seen by measuring the signal level at the output as (lets say) +10db and see that the fundamental on the display reads +9.8 db The other 1.2 db is spread out across the harmonic content. If you remove the harmonics the fundamental will measure +10 and be seen as +10 on the display.
The velocity errors I have successfully trapped are right next to the fundamental. So If the 1Khz signal begins to head up the spectrum - it is held by a velocity countermeasure to keep it locked on speed. So 1,001 Khz (one extra cycle) is not allowed. This is why it does not have the ability to produce harmonic distortion. It is captured and dealt with while it is still in its infancy as a phase problem not a frequency problem. On the other hand, the burn-in process (outside the detection system) all by itself will cause an offset in the speed that will end up displacing the sound objects enough to cause the live nature of the sound to collapse. It can sound fake until it is broken in.
The break-in non-symmetrical charge/discharge currents will give you something that looks like a pencil sitting in half a glass of water. (It looks like the pencil is split at the water line) That is the positive and negative wavefronts in an unregistered condition. After burn-in the pencil is seen as normal (out of the water) as the wavefronts are now registered (same as live).
That doesn't mean, I hear perfectly or understand perfectly (scientifically) what I hear.
Perhaps whatever we hear is all that matters.
I do not derive any pleasure from numbers, or being "right".
Your statement is most accurate, yet if I'm musically fooled and happy (in front of my Hi-fi), is it not a better place to be than scientifically baffled and frustrated and somehow not into the music?
Thank you Zen master Hakuin for the koan, what is the sound of one hand (clapping)?
In defense of the theory of "detecting the immeasurable". We have heard for decades, perhaps since the beginnings of mankind, certainly before electronics, things with our highly tuned listening devices, things that if our ancient ancestors had not heard and understood in time/space/direction cues, we would not be sitting in front of our glorious Hi-fi kits today for a casual listen. And so it goes, scientists still can't put simple numbers and logic to what we sit down with. Our old, damaged, ears and faulty logic, but sessioned listening skills and never the less, we hear without fail.
Two violin players play the same piece, note for note, why does Heifetz not sound like Grappelli?
roger_paul " ... THD
analyzers do not detect velocity. It is too far below the ability to
display. The circuit can detect velocity and correct faint variations in
speed in real time."
Oh, you are talking about a turntable! Speed variations can certainly be very precisely measured. Indeed, the speed of anything can be measured. You just need the right tool.
THD analyzers do not detect velocity. It is too far below the ability to display. The circuit can detect velocity and correct faint variations in speed in real time.
It is those speed variations the destroy the integrity of the final output sound and make objects embedded in the signal appear to be drifting (not stable).
roger_paul " ... Actually - it cannot be measured by external analyzers but it can be detected within the circuit and removed."
If you have identified distortion but can't measure it, then either you are measuring the wrong thing, or you're mistaken about the distortion in the first place. If the distortion can be "detected," then it can be measured.
Actually - it cannot be measured by external analyzers but it can be detected within the circuit and removed. As a result the resolution, detail and physical layout of the original venue become blatantly obvious.
The amplifier is able to pass the electrical version of the sound waves as if it only traveled via the air medium.
The velocity has to be included or it cannot sound live.
roger_paul " ... Yes there is distortion that cannot be
measured and has been the most destructive obstacle in the way of
reproducing actual live sound ..."
If you have identified distortion that you can't measure, then you are measuring the wrong thing.
Thank you r_f for your civil response. The only reason I ended up on this thread was the topic "burn-in" which I happen to know about because it was the last obstacle in the way of distortion-free amplification.
I know of other manufacturers who I respect (like atmosphere) and have shared great wisdom on these threads. I don't have a problem seeing their input on something the some newbees are not quite able to understand. This is a hobby that can be made more enjoyable by connecting with like minded individuals. A lot can be learned by reading the experiences of others.
I think I’ll hold off on putting my MA-1 Mk.3 Silvers on "or best offer" for a bit and keep my ears open.
roger_paul, Oh, the world is filled with many ironies. I have no idea what you may have going on here, and wish no personal offense. Yet, this thread seems like an odd venue to roll out a new paradigm for making things louder. Agreed, I don’t quite get it. Claims such as these are truly best brought from an independent party and you would do yourself, and your new product, I believe, better press in this manner.
It also used to be customary around these parts to note on your post that you are "industry" and therefore not be accused after the fact of unknowingly misleading someone here with your likely bias. I mean to suggest no impropriety on your part what so ever. As I’m sure you have the best of intentions and are very excited about what you have done. I’m just saying.
Offering info up in a new thread with links to your white paper and product reviews might be a real focused approach.
It's been my experience that amplifier designers are the most educated, clever and talented audiophiles in the business. Don't believe me? Just ask them. I'm more of a Zag Nut guy myself.
These threads have not changed much. I tried to tell you about something legitimate that will have an impact on the very industry around which your hobby exists. Unless you are an amplifier manufacturer yourself in which case I could understand trying to tear down what I have said. I feel sorry for actual audiophiles who come to these forums to share ideas and learn from others. I'm sure there is a thread somewhere that deals with candy bars.
We will just wait for the news to hit you from other sources.
Geoffkait, Some of this thread is just nuts. I'd be kind of a Mound's fan, but they screwed up the Almond Joy when they used cheap (domestic style) milk chocolate. Had they taken a lesson from the Swiss and way-upped the butter fat and used quality cocoa with the almonds, I'd be all in! [|;^)>
"The experience cannot be described in words. So let me simply say the in the coming months you will see one audio magazine after another validating what I have done as the biggest breakthrough in sound reproduction. Period."
Actually, eveything can be described in words. No reason for all the mystery. We are not illiterate slobs. See if you can describe what indescribable experience you’re talking about in say a paragraph or two. Is it like a Mounds candy bar, indescribably delicious?
"If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true." - Judge Judy
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