Phono pre "Break-In" process? Necessary?

Break-in time unfortunately is a necessary evil. A freshly built amplifier will sound quite differently say.. 3 or 4 weeks later. It is centered around chemical changes that happen when power is applied to a given circuit or system to include interconnects, speaker wire etc.

Generally speaking audiophiles that recognize and hear the "break-in" effect are not imagining it - it really does happen. This is why manufacturers may have a break-in shelf for components or sub-assemblies or whole finished products that just have time put on them to try to shorten the break-in time experienced by the customer when he or she receives it in their home.

If you cannot hear the effects of break-in, it usually means that some component in your system is masking the improvement in purity.

The sonic explanation of break-in is the slow but sure improvement in apparent detail and focus of the projected sound stage due to the reduction in timing errors.

Roger

wolf_garcia,

As a product accumulates burn-in time the distortion is reduced.
If your system begins to sound worse - Don't blame the new product, blame a component ahead if it that may have sounded harsh but was tamed down by the "fresh" amp that could not yet pass fine detail. When that amp finally achieves zen it simply exposes the quality of whatever is driving it.

GIGO.

Roger

I hope to aid in the understanding of break-in and what it does.

During my research into distortion, I was forced to include the break-in phenomenon.

Mostly because the tiny distortion I was going after was very similar to the size of the distortion reduced or removed by allowing sufficient “break-in” time. This component behavior is something I am very familiar with. There is no mystery as to how break-in affects sound reproduction. To understand how the sound changes, you need to know exactly what happens during that time.

There are those that have sought guidance from A-B tests done on capacitors from various manufacturers. An attempt is made to ensure that it is a “fair” test. Capacitors are swapped out under the same physical conditions (leads are held by screw terminal type connections). While it seems fair on the surface – it is not the way to determine which capacitors are better than others.

If you want it to be fair – you take the ten samples and build them into ten copies of the same circuit.

Then after listening tests that include early (fresh) and late (3 weeks) comparisons you will have your answer. Two capacitors from the same manufacturer can sound different depending on where it is used in the circuit. You have to know some history of the component even though it may be new stock. Depending on how it is tested before shipping will affect the length of time forming process will take.

In a nutshell: The capacitor will initially behave as having non-symmetrical impedance. It is not exactly the same as having a non-linear component. Current drawn by the charging cycle will not match the current given up by the discharge cycle. This is due to the instantaneous state of the dielectric. Therefore the impedance will be slightly higher in one direction and lower in the other direction (until it is formed). We are not talking about a big difference – in fact it is not measurable.

How then would I know that this is true? I have worked with distortion products that are at or below the noise floor. Once you reduce distortion down to extremely low levels (to where they don’t show up on test gear) it then relies purely on theoretical analysis to go any further.

Since I was already down there – the break-in phenomenon was right in my wheelhouse.

The mismatch in charge/discharge current causes the timing of the positive and negative wave-fronts to be askew. This detracts from the feeling of "live" that we naturally get when listening through air. 

In fact if you want to see the difference just the break-in can make, I received 2 reviews for the same gear by the same person whose comments in the second (follow-up review) describe how the equipment has morphed into a different experience. When the circuitry has very low or no distortion, the break-in changes are much more noticeable because their distortion product is larger in size than the circuit’s own distortion. Once the forming is complete, a now clear path is recognized through the entire product. You begin to hear the true purity of just the circuit.

Roger

Actually - it cannot be measured by external analyzers but it can be detected within the circuit and removed. As a result the resolution, detail and physical layout of the original venue become blatantly obvious.

The amplifier is able to pass the electrical version of the sound waves as if it only traveled via the air medium.

The velocity has to be included or it cannot sound live.

Roger

There is another thread started by the reviewer...

Has anyone heard the new North American products preamp and amp?

This would be the one to follow and learn about this process if you are curious.

Roger

r_f_sayles

Perhaps unmeasurable, but never the less, still perceptible

Thank you for being open minded. It is exactly as I posted. The good news is that there is proof of concept. If you have read my white paper you will see that I absolutely held back making such an astounding claims until I had actual evidence for just this reason. EVERY attempt 100% to reproduce sound in a way that it sounds "live" or 3 dimensional has fallen by the wayside. Why? because there have been a plethora of designers who dabble in the smoke and mirrors method of making the sound stage wider or tricking you into believing that an instrument has all of a sudden popped out of the system. They are 100% fake and your brain knows it.

What I have done has...
A) never been done before and
B) has no competition.
Is that a profound statement to claim?

OK - I got your attention.

If you wire one speaker out of phase, what do you get? Most people react as saying wow this is like surround sound but the vocals are not centered and seem to be coming from everywhere in the room. A portion of that effect can be designed into an electronic device by simply keeping the speaker phase correct and taking a small portion of the signal and flipping the phase over and applying it to the opposite channel. Don't take my word for it - they blatantly describe the technique in there own patent(s).

Do you realize how long it has been since there was a true breakthrough in audio? Decades.

When the real thing comes along how do expect people to react? Well if they have not actually heard it then you get the knee jerk reaction.. "yes of course it is the ultimate..bla bla bla..."  but they don't believe it for a second.

The experience cannot be described in words. So let me simply say the in the coming months you will see one audio magazine after another validating what I have done as the biggest breakthrough in sound reproduction. Period.

I know there are plenty of readers that are gasping right now - thinking how arrogant, how "Trump" like. I am humbled by the events that have placed my work in a category by itself. I have been blessed. I do not claim to be a know-it-all (like some others appear to be). I did my time in the lab to figure out exactly why systems don't just project 3-D naturally. The answer is because the job of amplifying was never taken to the final stages. Once it hits the "low" distortion measurements that are assumed to be good enough - that's it there are no tools to help them go any further.

The problem is that something was still fundamentally wrong because real "live" sound has not been attained thus far. Every thread has audiophiles talking about how to get "the sound you are looking for". Some like the sonic signature of a good triode or some like the slam of SS so they drive their woofers with SS and a nice lush tube top end, etc.

When amplification does not have a sonic signature - how can you tell if it is tubes or transistors? The answer is you can't. That only happens when there is NO distortion. Forget about odd or even harmonics - try none.

Yes there is distortion that cannot be measured and has been the most destructive obstacle in the way of reproducing actual live sound. If you can present sound that appears to be coming through the medium of air - it is easily recognized by the brain as authentic. Nothing about the amplifier is used to generate or simulate the effect of air - it simply passes the true velocity which was in the air at the time of recording.

That's why it is referred to as the "Holy Grail" of audio.

If you plan on going to the Newport Beach show in June you can witness
a piece of audio history.

Roger

Thank you r_f for your civil response. The only reason I ended up on this thread was the topic "burn-in" which I happen to know about because it was the last obstacle in the way of distortion-free amplification.

I know of other manufacturers who I respect (like atmosphere) and have shared great wisdom on these threads. I don't have a problem seeing their input on something the some newbees are not quite able to understand. This is a hobby that can be made more enjoyable by connecting with like minded individuals. A lot can be learned by reading the experiences of others.

Roger

OK - here goes.

It is the same thing as being there.

Roger

Its ironic that good news for audio would fall on deaf ears belonging to audiophiles.

Well good luck guys -

These threads have not changed much.
I tried to tell you about something legitimate that will have an impact on the very industry around which your hobby exists. Unless you are an amplifier manufacturer yourself in which case I could understand trying to tear down what I have said. I feel sorry for actual audiophiles who come to these forums to share ideas and learn from others. I'm sure there is a thread somewhere that deals with candy bars.

We will just wait for the news to hit you from other sources.

Roger

THD analyzers do not detect velocity. It is too far below the ability to display. The circuit can detect velocity and correct faint variations in speed in real time.

It is those speed variations the destroy the integrity of the final output sound and make objects embedded in the signal appear to be drifting (not stable).

Knowing that something was still in the way led me to use pure theory to suspect what was happening. I put velocity traps in place hoping to catch the tiny errors that again were just theoretical. I was delighted to see (hear) it work and It confirmed what I thought was going on. Look up miracle in the dictionary.

Demonstrating the result as a live full orchestra to a few people at the factory left everyone speechless and weeping.

It works.

Roger

r_f,
I am also  fan of  Tom Waits. Do you have a recording of him live?
I know the engineer that recorded Bela fleck and the Flecktones and have the live recording of them in Africa that is truly amazing. 

When you hear music through a distortion-free system, the experience is not subtle. In fact Norm, the reviewer, has told me when he plays Basie at the Sands - he can literally recall the room they were in. The layout was identical and every detail of the performer and audience could be heard as natural as when he was there,

It will recover the original venue in every way. As you can probably tell at this point It is difficult to explain to someone what they are about to hear. Your speakers produce acoustic energy based on an actual "re-enactment" of the air pattern present at the time of the recording. The most important property of the playback is the speed that sound waves are released from your speakers. Sound has 2 properties - pressure and time. The waves flow as if uninterrupted from the stage.

When you system appears to have nothing to do with what you are hearing - then its right. Sound objects are lifted away from the speakers and float in space. The speed is locked at Mach One and there is no sonic signature.
You cannot tell if it is tubes or transistors. The image is 100% stable (same as live) and it comes out of a jet black background.

I wish I had more demo units to send out - people end up keeping them.
I don't know where you are located but I do plan to show at Newport Beach in June. Almost all the editors of top magazines have agreed to see what the fuss is about including 4 of the top movie makers.

Roger

cleeds,

Well I see where you are going but it is not the same thing. For example in order to have speed variations on the turntable the are like those found in amplifier, your TT speed (33 rpm) would have to speed up to 66 rpm in order to produce a harmonic of what ever is in the groove. 

Amplifiers that can generate energy at 2 Khz from a 1Khz fundamental experience a very rapid change in velocity causing the fundamental to "slide" up the spectrum and be seen at 2khz and then slide" back to 1Khz.
If it does not slide - then it is digital not analog.

The reason it is only a small percentage of distortion is because the segment of the 1 Khz sine wave the experiences the non-linear event is brief. Energy from the fundamental cannot exist in two places at once because it is an analog continuum. This can be seen by measuring the signal level at the output as (lets say) +10db and see that the fundamental on the display reads +9.8 db The other 1.2 db is spread out across the harmonic content. If you remove the harmonics the fundamental will measure +10 and be seen as +10 on the display.

The velocity errors I have successfully trapped are right next to the fundamental. So If the 1Khz signal begins to head up the spectrum - it is held by a velocity countermeasure to keep it locked on speed. So 1,001 Khz (one extra cycle) is not allowed. This is why it does not have the ability to produce harmonic distortion. It is captured and dealt with while it is still in its infancy as a phase problem not a frequency problem. On the other hand, the burn-in process (outside the detection system) all by itself will cause an offset in the speed that will end up displacing the sound objects enough to cause the live nature of the sound to collapse. It can sound fake until it is broken in.

The break-in non-symmetrical charge/discharge currents will give you something that looks like a pencil sitting in half a glass of water. (It looks like the pencil is split at the water line) That is the positive and negative wavefronts in an unregistered condition. After burn-in the pencil is seen as normal (out of the water) as the wavefronts are now registered (same as live).

Roger

cleeds,

I'm sorry for the confusion. I may not have properly explained this phenomenon. Its all in the viewpoint. I have more experience in the field of distortion than anyone. (Bold statement? Yes) Its because I have studied in great detail what happens to a signal as it passes through an amplifier circuit. A good 30 years of research just on this one aspect of amplification.
It has been my goal to find any error whatsoever and deal with it in real time. For that reason the technology I am using is years ahead of any other attempt at analog amplification. There are no man made tools available to show what has been going on. That's why it is pure theory.

This is why I am able to claim the complete removal of distortion.
The effect of having no distortion is like nothing ever heard by audiophiles.
The reaction of those who are exposed to this is unanimous. Shock followed by great joy in what they hear.

I might add that I am quite humbled by what I have discovered and thank God for his help.

Everything I post is fact - with hard evidence to back it up.

I am in the process of responding to wolf's comments and will take one statement at a time to explain what happens electronically vs what happens acoustically.

The mystery is gone and I am trying to share my findings with audiophiles who are the first to take advantage of this body of work. Poking fun at a process because it is not understood is not helping anyone.

The reason it sounds odd to describe what you think is your understanding of distortion is because there has been new information revealed that explains the missing links between what seems to be a straight forward process and one that actually encompasses the total process including errors the have gone unnoticed. (Not found in the text books - sorry)
The amplifying process was never taken to its limit. I took it there.

The confusion is not on my end.

BTW - "what you think" (I'm not referring to you cleeds)

Roger

geoffkait,

All you need to start with is a new power amp - it has the most difficult job of maintaining constant velocity with linear gain that cannot vary (at all). It has built in Auto-Focus

You will be back for the preamp.(also no distortion w/ Auto-Focus)

Roger

wolf

With all due respect, let me clarify a few things.

wolf - The "same as live" concept is irrelevant

If you are listening to a live band on stage and you turn your head – what happens to the band members? Do they follow your head and stay in front of your face? No.

Their positions on stage are fixed. The drum set is still sitting where they set it up.

The stability I’m referring to does not have to do with turning your head – instead its how you perceive their location while listening. When there are problems with velocity, the resulting image is out of focus. You have a good idea where the drum set is but not the exact location. When the focus becomes sharp and crystal clear you begin to identify the exact locations of each drum in the set separately.

wolf - (I’ve mixed and recorded hundreds of live concerts from Richie Havens to the Baltimore Consort)

I am no stranger to recording. I have built recording studios in the ‘70s.  I also recorded Duke Ellington live.

wolf -"black backgrounds" exist in a vacuum only. We really have to ban the "black background" term…really…perhaps the most overused and patently useless audio bullshit term since it appeared a few years ago.

 

You can have an amplifier that is dead quite when no music is playing. There is a big difference between noise at the noise floor and noise that appears when music is present. What I am I referring to is the simultaneous projection of sound objects into space while STILL having a black background (like a canvas). That scenario is difficult if not impossible to achieve with conventional amplifiers. Conventional amplifiers produce a phase noise while trying present sound objects in your image. Objects that are side by side on stage have clear air space between them. If your image is out of focus (and it is) the blurry portion from both will overlap to some degree and not allow the output to drop all the way down to the noise floor. This results in a “grey” background. Once the music stops – it returns to a black background or at least as quiet as the noise floor. That should be happening between individual notes but it doesn’t.

Roger

geoffkait,

Your right - the odds are against having things work properly.

Roger 

wolf

I apologize if I rub you the wrong way or any other readers for that matter.

As time goes on and others are added to the number of people who have  had a chance to hear what I have been trying to describe, it will become self evident as to the advantage (or not) of such a system.

A 1964 recording no doubt with tube mic preamps. Good stuff!
BTW I have designed with tubes as well and often thought of how an H-CAT circuit made of tubes would perform.

I have also thought about sticking a 12AX7 out of the top of my SS preamp with just the heater hooked up.  (Sorry - I couldn't resist)

Roger

wolf

After reading these posts again I do recognize something I should not have done. To say that your system lacks focus. I actually prefer tube systems over SS for just that attribute. I was able to put together my Idea as SS only because there are some advantages especially in the area of output drive capacity. I have built hybrids with tube front-end and SS out.
Part of my goal was to match if I could the awesome micro / inner detail of a good triode. I was able to do that with SS. That's a miracle all by itself :)
I think we are on the same side - we all enjoy great sounding music. 

I do apologize for knocking your system.

Roger