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phono pre-amp being replaced

Hi guys long time no talk to.

So I'm reaching out to the community to get some feedback. I recently purchased a Lyra Kleos phono cartridge. Love the cartridge by the way. One of the best sounding carts in its price range and more that I have heard. With that said I currently have an ARC PH-7 phono stage. Love that piece also. Its very natural sounding and just produces a lovely sound. However in regards to cartridge loading its just not the best match for the Kleos. I understood that when I bought the cartridge, but I really wanted the Kleos so I pulled the trigger. Don't get me wrong the sound is amazing with the two however the PH-7 has a fixed gain of 57.5 DB. with the Kleos being a .5mv output I have lost about 8-10 DB of gain in reference to my medium output Dynavector that the Kleos replaced. I think the optimal gain for .5mv is somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-61DB. So that is a little background. Here is my question. I'm looking for recommendations for a phono stage to replace the PH-7. I don't want to shell out the money for the ARC Reference which is around $10k plus. I think I can get just as good a sound for somewhat less. So as much as I LOVE my PH-7 I am ready to part with it at this point to better match the Kleos.  So I thought I would ask. So any suggestions would be helpful. I'm looking for something maybe with variable gain or at least maybe a high and a low setting for future cartridge upgrades. I would like it to be vacuum tube, and of course have a very natural sound. So that should narrow the field. I have  been so happy with what I have that I have not even entertained auditioning anything else until now so Im a little behind the 8 ball on the available models out there other than ARC of course. May have a little brand loyalty there, but I'm willing to give another brand a try to keep things in my price range of 3-$6k.


Thanks in advance


-Keith

barnettk

Showing 15 responses by barnettk

barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@lewn and tooblue 

good point and I would agree. It’s not that I am not getting decent volume however I do have to turn up the volume quite a bit in reference to my other sources even with the input level that that the PH-7 is plugged into turned up. Which by the way is basically the same as turning up the main volume. Which brings me back to my main problem. . 

We can chat later. 

Thanks 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@tooblue 

my main pre is a Mcintosh C2600
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@mijostyni 

two thoughts on that. I’m about to board a plane, but let’s chat about that later this evening. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
Interesting replies. I have considered  a SUT however I was trying to keep from adding another component to the chain, but  maybe I will try it. As a matter of fact the dealer I purchased it from suggested not. Someone I trust so I left it at that. I really do like what I have and think I will at least give the SUT a try. 

Someone asked about loading. 

Im loading the Kleos at 100 ohms which it really would do better at 50 However the lowest the PH-7 will allow is only 100 so in that regard it’s not the best match. At 100 it does not sound bad or to bright so that is not not really a show stopper. If I would buy another PS though I would look for one with more loading options.


barnettk OP
410 posts
 
Thanks folks for all the comments and recommendations. I will take a closer look at the Pre amps discussed here and also possibly the SUT option. Need to do a little more research on that. I understand how they work, but I have never used one and want understand the pros and cons a little better. Who knows I may even just stay with that I have. It’s possible I’m just over thinking this as I said outside of having to run my main volume up higher I’m not “really” having a problem. At some point when I get the itch to upgrade again I would like to try some of the higher end lower output carts and that will not be possible with this PS. So many things to consider here for me. I will let you know what I decide to do, but this conversation has been enlightening. Any other ideas I’m listening. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@lewm 

actually you are correct. 91 ohms is the manufactures recommended loading. Not sure why I was thinking it was 50. I looked at so many carts before deciding on the Kleos. That plus old age I guess. Anyway you see correct. I stand corrected. 

In regards to the gain. I feel that I have to turn the volume up to high to get the output out of it. For example. My reference listening volume (for me) on my pre amp is around 38% on the 2600. That to me is almost to loud. Now this is in relationship with my other sources and my previous Dynavector cartridge that was medium output at 1mv. With the Kleos paired with the PH-7 yo get the same volume I am at 47%. The C2600 attenuates on overall percentage as opposed to DB so just giving you an idea. At that volume I would think that with records especially you are further amplifying more noise...tube noise, friction between the stylus and the record etc. maybe I’m totally wrong here but that’s what I’m thinking. At that volume especially on quieter passages and yes the cartridge is setup correctly. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@pbnaudio 

Thanks I will also take a look. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
So I spoke with Keith at Herron. Very nice guy. He is actually the person who designed the VTPH-2a so I suspect that he is a small outfit (personnel wise) We had a long discussion about the VTPH-2a. I have a question for you Herron owners. Are using the loading plugs that he offers with the pre? He suggested trying  it without any loading, and said that a lot of people are running it un-throtled. However he said he would send the loading plugs in case I would want to load my cartridge. Just curious if anyone else is using this configuration. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@noromance 

I am also looking for flexibility. I have decided to forego the SUT option. Trust me I’m not just looking to spend money. As much as I love and I don’t mean that lightly the PH-7 it’s not going to give me the flexibility I need to move to other cartridges in the future. So it’s not just one thing that is leading me down this path. 

Thanks 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@jmolsbeg. 

Lol. Interesting. Yeah I have not read a bad word about it. Definitely has my interest peaked. We will see. Keith told me that if I Am not impressed that he would refund my money. I’m definitely considering giving it an audition. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@bpoletti 

"Now that you've actually spoken with Keith Herron, you might consider his support as an additional reason to get a VTPH-2A. You get Keith Herron along with it."

Very true. I enjoyed the conversation I had with him. Very smart, seems to be very easy to deal with, and very personable. Anytime you can deal with the owner/designer of a product (Im just assuming he is the owner) you can forgo a lot of BS. It really makes a difference. One of the reasons I have stuck with Mcintosh is Chuck. While he is not the owner I know I can call him anytime and ask a question and usually get a correct answer. Im sure that there are other companies out there that provide that level of customer service as well. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
Interesting position in regards to the system sounding better with the volume level higher on lower output devices:

https://youtu.be/k1JkU5tUOLo

The comments are basically a combination of you guys comments, but I thought it was interesting. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@trknomo 

yes and while the phono stage in the C2600 is indeed EXCELLENT  it’s just not as good as the ARC IMO. However to be fair I typically will evaluate a change over at least two weeks and the comparison I did was only about a day. I felt sonically the ARC had more clarity and a bit deeper sound stage. Granted the C2600 phono stage had never been used and maybe if I played it over a longer period of time I’m sure it would have gotten better. I think I am going to keep things separate. 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
All,

The difference in output (volume levels) between sources has become less of a concern since I starred this thread. Maybe I needed someone to bring me down to earth a little You know how it is with this hobby.... you get the itch to spend money and any excuse will do right. As I stated initially I am totally happy with the SQ in the gear I have. My thinking at this time is, it will be some years before I change carts because I LOVE the Kleos. If at that time a change is needed I will cross that bridge when I get to it. 

I am not going to knock ANY of the above suggestions they are all great ideas, and as I’m sure they all make sense to the persons offering them up. I respect that and appreciate you sharing. 


Thanks for ALL the feedback. 

-Keith 
barnettk OP
410 posts
 
P.S.

the above comments are not intended to shutdown the conversation. I do enjoy reading your opinions. So if anyone has other opinions, suggestions, etc on this topic please continue. Just to be clear. 
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