The subbwoofer in Avantgarde speakers work in range
18 – 350 Hz.
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Dave and Troy are simply defending the brands they distribute. I do not know of any distributors who speak negatively about their products. They know the equipment well and how to combine them ... is perfectly legitimate. Paradigm is a brand with experience and reputation, with qualified engineers and I am astonished, as sometimes some geniuses appear and call into question a team of engineers just because they do not like the sound. |
@nabcs25Although I welcome the compliment, it does not take a genius to grasp how sketchy this concept is (Although, it does look like some do have a problem with facts, and understanding the basics here). Also, if you don’t think engineers can (more like will) screw up, I heard Chernobyl is for sale, and you can fly there cheap too, on a Boeing 737 Max, you might want to have a look 😉 |
Arrogance again ... not even the basics of speaker design, the Paradigm engineers are capable of. Why do not you send a CV to Paradigm? ... With your expertise and fantastic pedigree, I’m sure they will employ you. But for me it's enough of this futile conversation ... listen to your brilliant Magicos and I will continue to listen to my poor engineered speakers with my deficient ears. |
So now knowledgeable and informed is consider arrogance? Where did I hear that before? Are you a politician?? BTW, since we seem to have a communication problem, allow me to be clear, I was talking about you and your champion dealer, not Paradigm. I am sure they know what they are doing; they just don't care how it sounds. |
Weren't Paradigm's speaker designs by Jerry VanderMarel and later financed and partnered by Scott Bagby who later bought out the Johnson brothers (Sonic Frontiers) or just their failing affordable Anthem tube line? Bagby also purchased ML from Gayle Martin Sanders and Ron Logan? Did VanderMarel simply leave? Its said that CEO Scott Bagby now retains 100% ownership of the three companies and his brother and managing director John now offer audio products at their made all in house affordable price? Doesn't that make it easier for a massive production company to be able to offer a much wider margin to its retailers? So who are this "experienced" companies current "qualified" engineers that continue to develop all these historical brands? What do I know I'm a customer, just asking? |
M-db what point are you trying to raise here? It seems their lead engineer is a man name Oleg Bogdonov. https://youtu.be/Nv6wK2XenAc |
Propaganda. I was rather taken by the “screens” on the drivers. No wonder they sound so etched. Beryllium midrange will be very hard to tame, looks to me like they tried to do that with the screens that is blocking a big part of the sound. Why would you want to have such a thing in front of what is supposed to be a remarkable driver (Sorry, not buying the phase “lens” BS, it makes no sense to a thinking mind). Probably an afterthought… |
Really Sciencecop we guess reading isnt one of your strong suits. https://www.paradigm.com/en/technology-design/patented-perforated-phase-aligning-ppa-lens https://youtu.be/DwA_uf_694I https://patents.google.com/patent/US10003869B2/en?inventor=Oleg+Bogdanov Yes they sound so eteched that they are getting rave reviews everywhere. Interesting they are also selling very well and can sound magnificent if you know what you are doing with them. https://youtu.be/Q9cFZk-GhLw Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@audiotroy Reading is indeed a strong suit of mine, and unlike you, I even understand what it is that I am reading. Oleg Bogdanov claim that using two screens in front of a tweeter will yield "improve frequency response and sound radiation pattern." Based on the horrendous measurements of this tweeter, both on and off axis, I can only wounder how bad was it before. Also note, he couldn’t claim any of that for the midrange, probably because KEF did that in their coaxial drivers 30 years ago. The use of perforated screens to "correct" nasty drivers behavior is not new. |
smodtactical I drive my 9h with tube amps...I listened for hours without fatiguing. But I listened with Luxman solid state amp with equal musicality. and please...don´t ask anything about Paradigm speakers to sciencecop ... his response will always be to bash the speakers. |
@smodtactical I have a feeling you are going to Kennedy Hi-Fi for the 9H demo. If you are, how about also having a listen to their Yamaha NS 5000 which is setup in another room. I cannot hear this speaker until I get back home to Toronto near the end of the year. I would be interested in your impression. |
@smodtactical Did you write this: http://www.sonicvisions.org/index.php?threads/magico-m2-and-s7-impressions.13/ Very good, and perceptive, report. Looks like you got it, there is no going back 😉 |
Hi Audiotroy, based on your selling the Paradigm 9H and having heard the Vimberg Tonda, about the same price, how are they different and similar? I would never own a Magico or Wilson, just because of the power consumption as well as I don't want to live with their sound. As I previously mentioned, the Von Schweikert VR55K is also on the table but it is double the price of the Paradigm and Vimberg. Thanks |
@sciencecop and others thanks for the kind words! The m2 was incredible but lets put things into perspective... those speakers cost $60k - $70k usd ! For that price they better be amazing LOL. Anyhow I heard a few speakers today: Persona 9H: 9H looked big and impressive with the glowing P symbol at the base of the tower. It was connected to a moon neo integrated amp, blue sound streamer. Not sure on which DAC was connected but ill find out and post later. WOW! What an amazing speaker. I listened to them in a large 30 x 30 x 12 ft listening room.. it was actually the demo floor and the speakers were on one side of the room so it was by no means an optimal listening room. But the thing that stood out to me the most at first was the bass. Not only was it tight and articulated it had a very impressive low rumble and authority that I definitely missed when I heard the 7F. The mid range clarity was exceptional and the high end had nice shimmer but it wasn't offensive at all or fatiguing (I listened for about an hour). The soundstage and imaging was excellent... I could place instrument players well and the overall sound signature was forward and exciting. Dynamics were great. Its strange because although the sound was precise and fast it also had a smoothness that was quite addictive. It was by no means thick or rich sounding but it was just precise, accurate, engaging and .... luxurious sounding? Nicholas gunn - veracruz is one of my favorite test tracks and in the intro the flowing water sounded more real than I ever heard it. It sounded like the water was flowing right before me and immersed me as the rest of the song carried on. There is a type of flute or horn in this track and this is one of my measures for how much I enjoy a speaker. When the horn/flute peaks in the rhythm on great speakers I simply close my eyes (inadvertently) and become complete intoxicated by the experience. This happened with the 9H! Overall I would say the M2 was slightly more detailed and threw a bigger sound stage but its hard to compare them because the rooms and electronics were different. But the 9H is awesome. The dealer gave me a great price which tempted me. One thing that bothers me is I don't like having berylium in my speakers as I worry about toxicity (especially if a driver breaks)... and having big midranges also just increases the beryllium dramatically. But this is just my own paranoia. Maybe ill get over it. Wilson Sasha DAW: I then heard the DAW at another dealer. This was a great speaker as well but sounded very different. Firstly it had a bigger more authoritative bass but was slightly slower than the 9H. Overall it had a lot less sparkle and was warm sounding but still quite detailed. Initially I didn't enjoy them but I found as I listened further I found myself enjoying them more and more. They were connected to big PS audio monos and PS DS dac and PS preamp so perhaps thats why it was so smooth? Overall I would take the 9H over them in a heartbeat. Especially since the price of the 9H is about half of the DAW. The DAWs to me sound ever so slightly veiled vs the 9H. Sonus Faber Aida: I cannot.. or prefer not to say too much about this speaker because it was on a system not connected to tidal and thus I couldn't listen to my own test tracks. The system was all mcintosh... quad amp monos, tube pre, mac cd player, not sure on dac. Overall the sound was solid... good dynamics, good soundstage.. I listened to mainly Bach that the dealer had on cd. It was also somewhat smooth sounding. All I can say is it sounded good but its not like I fell off my chair in amazement. --- Anyway those are my thoughts I am by no means an expert and have a lot to learn. I will keep listening and keep my eyes open. I will say coming back to my S8 V2s and my humble system... I am impressed with them. The 9H cost just about what my entire system costs and the S8V2 sound very impressive in my bed room especially with my dual PSA 18 inch subs. But I forsee an upgrade in my future... definitely. |
@smodtactical The Persona 9h have a huge advantage over other speakers like Wilson or Magico...any amp can drive them. I am fortunate that my deal represent brands like Luxman, Accuphase, Gryphon, Shindo...and speakers like Rockport, Marten, TAD, Raidho, Avantgarde and Paradigm. Its impressive the amps my dealer tried with the Personas, all with great results. You want a more rich and warm sound, try a SET amp...I have a 50w SET Amp, but I listened in the dealer room a Luxman MQ300, 8w only, but OMG...what a great sound! But tubes are not your thing?...try a small class A amp...like Accuphase A47...30w can make the Persona sing like no other speaker. Believe me...it is not necessary a huge and expensive amp to drive the Personas...I am sure the small integrated Pass INT-25 will be another great match. Try this amps with Magico or Wilson speakers and will see how crap they will sound! And the Persona can sound great in almost any room...the fantastic bass you heard is courtesy of the Anthem room correction. My room have a huge peak at 40/50hz that make setup big speakers a nightmare...not so with Personas...Now I have a fantastic bass like I never had in my listening room. If you can get them at a good discount, don’t miss the opportunity!...at least try them at home. |
@smodtactical As someone who owned 7B-SST for 5 years and is 99% sure to buy a Persona 3F I would advise you to not use the Brystons with the Persona. It would be way too bright. The almost top of the line MOON gear that I demoed the Persona 5F was rather great but I still would want something a little warmer with the Persona's for long listening sessions. Bryston SST line is much more neutral sounding than those MOON electronics I recently heard. I am getting the Luxman m900u for whatever speaker I get, either the 3F or TAD ME1, because it is an amazing amp and also slightly warm sounding. BTW - any chance to demo the Yamaha NS 5000? |
@smodtactical I’ve never heard any Bryston amplifiers, but all the comments I’ve read have left me with the impression that the sound is neutral but a bit on the cool side ... a bit like the Personas ... probably the sound will be transparent, dynamic and explosive, but maybe a little dry. I have a brief audition with a powerful Gryphon Diablo 300 (but with the 7F). Although the sound was fantastic, in the end I preferred when the speakers were matched with less powerful amplifiers. It also depends the preamp and source you have. But maybe it´s me!...I have this obsession with small power amps, never liked big power amps, and I had a few in the past. |
@smodtactical Yes, I compared several Raidhos (and other speakers) with the Personas. The Raidhos need power...they sounded great in my dealer room with Gryphon, but not so well with other amps. Probably they are a good match for your Bryston, because they sound on the warm side and need a neutral and muscular amp. Sincerely, never thought about the danger of beryllium...But after a brief google search, I found several reports that there is no real danger...I think you can rest easy...and the Personas drivers are well protected. |
Thanks for the thoughts. @yyzsantabarbara unfortunately no, I asked the owner if I could demo them, initially he said sure, but after I finished with the 9H he seemed a bit tired and said... you won't like them, its a vintage sound. I didn't want to insist. Sorry. @nabcs Ok thanks, lots to think about. Do you guys think MC601s would be a good pairing? I could also do a tube preamp to warm it up more. |
@yyzsantabarbara ah thanks, hrm, maybe that integrated moon amp. If I do this though I will probably just get the speakers and connect them to my bryston is just to hear how they sound and later add or subtract gear. I don’t know what the reputation of moon amplifiers are but perhaps the integrated Moon amps that I heard did warm up the 9h slightly which made it so detailed yet musical. |
@smodtactical I never heard the combination McIntosh/Paradigm, but McIntosh is known for a warm sound, and is a common combination used in shows. But Moon amp probably is a very good match... Aron Garrecht from SoundstageUltra gave a rave review of Persona 7F using Moon amplification. In the end he bought the review pair. You don´t have a chance to try a Luxman, Accuphase or Pass amp ? |
BTW - I was not recommending the MOON gear for the Persona. I said the Persona 5F sounded very good with the Moon 860A amp and other associated MOON gear in that price range. However, I think even warmer sounding gear would work better with the Persona. I am going with Luxman and I think it will work even better than with the MOON gear I heard. |
SimAudio Moon is from Canada...and Paradigm is also from Canada. It is probably a combination often used...i don´t know, only heard Moon with B&W speakers at shows. I think the new MOON 700i v2 integrated amplifier can be a fantastic machine. https://simaudio.com/en/product/700i-integrated-amplifier/?v=445d337b5cd5 If possible, ask your dealer to try at home. |
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