Performer-in-Room Quality with Speakers?


I need advice regarding what kind of speakers might help provide what I'm looking for. (For some time now I've been a tube guy for amplication, and that will not change; source components and media vary.)  I want an illusion of the performer (acoustic instrument music, vocals, classical, and combo jazz,) actually being in the room, realism so convincing that it is potentially startling. The only time I've had that sensation is when I use my Stax Ear Speakers. Concerns are sensitivity to room placement, cost, and of course spouse approval factor. Soundstage, imaging, dynamics, deeeeep bass, can take a back seat if necessary. 

Any ideas?  Single-point drivers?  Crossoverless units? Open baffle?  Vertical arrays?  Electrostatrics or planars? 
(For the record I've owned Maggies, Shahinian Obelisks, mid-fi traditional boxes and so on.)

Thanks for your ideas,

OGOgre
ogogre

Showing 9 responses by ogogre

We used to live in a small house that was mostly one big room with a high ceiling. Now we live in a bigger house overall for kids visiting, etc., but the rooms are smaller, especially where we sit and read, listen to music, etc. Too small for big flat speakers.

ESLs are the one thing I've never tried, except for my Stax 'phones.  New ESLs all seem to be huge, and small ESLs means vintage, apparently.  I just worry that I'll get some ESL57s that are older than I am, and they'll be too high-maintenance for me at this stage.

Magnaplanars seem more popular now than when I bought mine new over 30 years ago.  My 6 foot Maggies are in storage in my basement (cool, dry, doing OK I hope) with my other bigger speakers and my big old amps. 

If only Magnepan made a small model to be matched with a modest sub, something 36 by 18 inches and at a slight tilt.  But even then, I'm not looking for a big soundstage, just near field speakers that offer something very close to the actual sound of unamplified acoustic instruments and voices.  Not a concert hall sound but more like a small coffee house sound, if even that.  A performer or three with no mics, just as if they were in my house.  that direct, intimate realism.

A guy I work with read this thread and suggested I try to remove the room from the equation.  He suggested a very small listening room made totally dead acoustically to eliminate all reflected sound.  Then aim for very simple, accurate, near field speakers with small quick drivers, narrow baffles, perhaps without full-fledged crossovers, and maybe even sealed cabinets. 

I chuckled and said I should pick up a pair of EPIs or Genesis bookshelves and put 'em on stands.  He reminded me that I do have an unused powered sub that could be made to work with something like that.  (I need to trade off some of my equipment.  Hah!)  He also suggested that perhaps I try hybrid speakers with large ribbon tweeters.

Michael
Thanks to those who've so far responded.  I've had a feeling that the magic formula might involve time-coherence and / or apart-from-the-usual crossovers.  Regarding the former, I've thought about rebuilt Dahlquist DQ-10s.  For the latter I've considered Vandersteens.  I've thought about electrostatic, but WAF, cost, and placement sensitivity make me reluctant.

For amps I have a medium-powered push-pull integrated and a high-power power amp with a homebrew tube pre.  But I am open to SE, triode or pentode.  I will probably have a Revox open-reel in my near future, and I will soon need a new CD system.  I have an old Dual and a Yamaha PX-3 for platter-spinning, but vinyl has increasingly become a WAF issue. (Snap, crackle, and pop + cleaning and wear and tear = disapproving looks.)

I've considered horns, but every horn system I've ever listened to quickly gave me ear fatigue.

I also have considered doing a DIY with a single "full range" driver with no crossover at all, and / or a small-scale baffle-less arrangement.  I've heard from a friend that going with very small high compliance drivers in an extremely narrow baffle tower might produce much of what I'm looking for.

The Maggies I had (MG-IIBs), were great.  Actually, I have still  have them in storage, but we moved to a house that was bigger but has smaller rooms, plus, while the soundstage was huge and the sound ethereal, they did not sound like the musicians were actually in the room, unless that room were a concert hall.

My Shahinians do a similar thing but in a smaller space and with very deep bass, but again, I do not actually feel like Chet Baker is seven feet from me in the room.

My DCMs are quite rare, with only a few ever made, the two-piece Time Window Cubed (or Time Window with a third power superscript).  Those were time aligned and also went down to an F3 of about 15hz when I drove them with two Thresholds.  They really shined with 30 - 50 amperes. 

But those days of volume and bass and a big listening room are gone.  Now I'm looking for a smaller, simpler arrangement that could make a singer sound like there is no recording, not even a microphone and P.A. involved, just Tracy Chapman on a stool singing in the living room.

OGOgre
Well, my wife rejected the idea of deadening the room, although we do have drapes and carpet already.  The Eminent Technology smaller models and the Omega Audio speakers look intriguing.

As for budget, I don't have an endless budget, but I would of course prefer less expensive good sound to expensive good sound, and I am also one of theose guys who just loves it when something incredibly inexpensive turn out to provide high end performance.

Yesterday I brought up two old (surrounds still good, though) Boston BA-60s with the original SEAS tweets.  I put 'em on some old stands that are probably too short (12 "), but I can experiment this way before buying taller ones.

Then I hauled my old 2x12 M&K powered sub from the basement, which was not fun, let me tell you.  I have it at a low volume setting and I played with the crossover with "Sultans of Swing" playing, ending up with 70hz.

These sound very, very good.  The last time I listened to them it had to have been SS, but they LOVE tubes!  The sound is neutral yet silky.  And it has some of the realism that I want.  Nevertheless, the quest never ends, does it?

OGOgre/Michael
FWIW, I did not mean to suggest that I am on a very small budget, just that I would prefer cheaper over pricier.  While Decware and MBL are out of the question, a pair of Vandersteens are a possibility, and they get mentioned a lot.  There is a Vandersteen dealer just under two hours from me, and from the V. site, the latest 2ce and the 1Ci look interesting.

Nevertheless, if I could score a refurbished pair of ESL-57s, I'd snap them up.  Unfortunately, they are typically listed as pick up only from either of the coasts, but I live in fly-over country.

OGOgre
The suggestions that mention speakers that are dipole or omni-pole in dispersion prompted me to purchase a pair of the smaller Ohm Walsh type speakers.  They didn't cost much, and if they sound as good as a lot of folks report, they will find some place in my home, whether they produce an illusion of live, unrecorded performance or not.

After they arrive and I set them up, I'll report back here.

OGOgre
Well, my new speakers arrived.  They are new in the box 30 year old Ohm Acoustics Sound Cylinder SCT (T for tall) Plus, Series 2, in solid black, 42 inches tall. 

They each look like Kubrick's Great Black Monolith, only cylindrical.  And yes, like a 2001 man-ape, I practically worshipped them at first sight, touching them, backing away, grunting, touching them again, and ultimately weeping in response to the revelation.

Seriously, however, as it is early in the morning, the most I've been able to do before I take off for work is remove them from their crates, take off the 30 year old plastic wap, and set them up.

I will check the Walsh driver surrounds to see if they have deteriorated from all of those years in a warehouse, but if they're good, maybe I'll run some low volume bass-heavy music while I'm away to break them in.

Hah!  Putting 30 year old speakers through their very first breaking-in!

I'll report back as I know more.

OGOgre
dave_b, I have read that was the case, that the Pro Series were black.  Thing is, they were sealed in the original crate/box, with all of the original styro packing stuff, and the box has "SCT+" all over it both in graphics and in a couple places in red Sharpie.

I was unable to check the surrounds as I've learned online and now in my personal experience they cannot be opened up in any way short of using a heat gun and thin prying device to patiently and carefully remove either the grill up top or the base down below.  They are glued together with what appears (I can spy just a glimpse of it with a magnifier/LED light) to be a caulk-like adhesive.

I peeked up through the port on the bottom, but damping material (stapled in place) prevents the driver from being visible. 

So I fired them up with smooth jazz at low volume for a few hours, then orchestral classical at medium volume for a few hours, then jazz fusion with electric bass and kick drum at medium-high volumes for a half hour.  At first the low bass was nonexistent in the process, but at some point in the middle of the orchestral classical I could begin to hear the double bass, tuba, tympani, and such.  By the time I was modestly turning up the electric bass and kick drum laden jazz, the deep bass (well, not crazy deep) had finally arrived.  I carefully listened for and heard no sign of a deteriorating surround.

They sound excellent, especially now with a bit of breaking in.  I will listen to acoustic music tomorrow or perhaps the next day and report back.  I've got a lot on my plate right now.

Before that tomorrow, however, I will play the acid test, but at low volume only, the legendary disc with Jean Guillou playing "Pictures at an Exhibition" on The Great Organ of Tonhalle, Zurich (Dorian).  Track 2, "Gnomus" has what must be a low A or even G starting at 0:50.  It sounds to me like the fundamental is at or below 20hz.  It is easily the lowest note I have ever heard on any recording, audible on a great system, but the amazing part is that one can feel the shudder of the note from the floor around your feet.

In truth, it is really a note for high current amps and transmission line speakers.

OGOgre
SUCCESS!  (Well, close enough for what I want in that room for my claiming success.)

My co-worker who had specific advice (see above) came over and hooked up some DIY speakers he finished last weekend.  First, this is with my M&K subwoofer with the crossover at about 60hz and the volume set quite low.

His speakers are slim, comparatively deep and tall (16 x 5 x 9, maybe?), on 22" stands, conventional front port, no crossover or caps, one full range 4 inch speaker (don't know the brand, but he said the pair cost under $300).  From low to medium volumes, with the speaks toed in slightly, in the sweet spot (surprisingly wide), male and female vocals in small acoustic combos or with one acoustic guitar sounded like they were right there in the room with us.

Chamber music with five or fewer instruments sounded genuinely live, in-room, too.  The soundstage was not spacious, but it was precise and focused.  Solo piano did not sound great, only O.K.

Depending on the music, we sometimes had to lower the subs' volume even a tad more, such as with trio combo smooth jazz, in order to make the upright bass sound not amplified as in a club, but actually just acoustic, in the listening room.

The stands are mine.  He said that for sitting he preferred his stands, which I think he said are 18".  He also said that if he were to it again he would maybe go with the same basic cabinet design, but with 3 inch full range speakers.  His opinion was that that would sound even more "real."

Now I know what I need to do, although it will be some time before I can put it into motion.  I need to build or buy some single-point/single driver, crossover-less speakers.

OGOgre/Michael
Steakster,

I have somewhat mixed feelings about the OHMs for one reason (coming below). 

First the good, however.  They really do provide a huge soundstage, wide and deep. Pinpoint imaging?  Not like a high-end small stand mounted monitor or quality (to me that means not home theater geared) slim tower.  They sound very good anywhere in the room and are not especially placement-sensitive.  Everything sounds very natural and even, and I cannot imagine having listening fatigue with them.  I hear no extreme peaks in their reproduction.  They can play loud with enough power. 

And they go low, but here's the misgiving I have about them.  (They still are not fully broken in probably, so keep that in mind.)  They do deep bass but only if they are turned up to medium or higher volume. At quite low volume almost all bass disappears.  In some recordings there is low bass content I hear with my Shahinians or DCMs even at lower volumes that the OHMs do not start to reproduce until they are turned up.  When they ARE turned up, the deep bass is definitely there and does seem to be in balance with the overall music, plenty loud.  I think because of this they would probably be good in a much larger room than I have them in.  In a decent sized room, orchestral music, opera, big band, pop, and classic rock would probably sound VERY good with enough amp to get them there.  Hip-hop, techno, any electronic dance, no.

Regarding the sonotube cabinets, they are quite rigid.  A rap of my knuckles on the side produces a very high acoustic tone, right up there with the most heavily braced speakers I have ever had.  They are solid for sure.

I will probably hold onto them for a while (I hold onto gear for much too long, a habit I should lose.), but I do not know how long I'll keep them in the line-up if an extended break in does not bring out low volume bass from them. 

Michael