Peeking inside a Carver Crimson 275 Tube Amplifier

The Carver 350s are built like tanks but cost $9,500 for a reason. This Carver 275 is a nice entry level audiophile product (akin to solid state Rotel 1500 series units).

I’m buying the Mac: tried and true 100wpc @8ohms/160 @ 4---with a true .005 distortion level. 4 cozy USA tubes that glow green and create that nice warm sound. $4,500.00--done and done.

The focus has been squarely on the Crimson 275, deservedly so, but does anyone really trust that Carver Raven 350 now? It’s only 44 lbs per side (most certainly NOT built like a tank) and rated at 350 tube Watts per channel into 8 ohms; 400 per ch into 4 ohms! That power rating represents the KT120 tubes running at around their limit (which is FAR from reality on the 275). That’s maybe even more optimistic a power rating than the 275! At 44 lbs there also has to be a lot of air under those huge transformer covers. The most credible spec on its sheet is its (near) $10K price.

Compare to the Rogue Audio Apollos which are 100 lbs per side and rated (quite likely an honest) 250 Watt /ch. Or the M180, rated 180 Watt / ch, 55 lbs a side, and about $3K less than the Raven 350. I would bet the M180 easily out-powers the 350 on a bench.

Anyways, you made a good choice going for Mac over Carver!

@mervo 4 cozy USA tubes? You will have to roll in some NOS to get USA made tubes.

I was debating between the Carver 275 with a Mcintosh C47 preamp or a McIntosh MA-252 Integrated hybrid. After reading this post, if the transformers are only 17 WPC each (I believe there are 3), that still only gets to 51 aggregate assuming they are bridged. I love Bob Carver, but McIntosh seems to figure things out and they are made in the USA too. Niche brands often need to compromise their lower end products to reach better market share. I was stymied by the price of the Carver (only $2,750), but then I realized, like lower end REGA turntables, the product is built to a specific market  price, the compromises slip away as one moves up the particular manufacturer's product ladder. The Carver 350s are built like tanks but cost $9,500 for a reason. This Carver 275 is a nice entry level audiophile product (akin to solid state Rotel 1500 series units).

I'm buying the Mac: tried and true 100wpc @8ohms/160 @ 4---with a true .005 distortion level. 4 cozy USA tubes that glow green and create that nice warm sound. $4,500.00--done and done.

@jjss49 I’m pretty angry about it. I’ve owned Carver made gear in the past. I’m angry because I really admired his designs. I “believed” in him. I defended him in conversations about his career and products. It bothers me because I’ve looked him in the eye and heard his tales. I’m not rich, I make sacrifices to own the gear I do have. I try to study, read reviews and know what I’m buying. I “almost” bought the 275 and was intending to still buy one possibly two, in the near future. I sat on a little kitty of money and was watching like a Hawk to buy used when this crap hit the fan. I’m angry. I feel foolish and lied to because I trusted what he said and what is advertised as their specs. I expect legitimate professional companies to be honest about measurements… even if they put their best foot forward and measure from the best possible perspective.. you still expect it to be in the range of what they advertise. This was blatant lies. The soul motivation is greed and at the cost of your client/customer. I have every right to be angry. Every right to say it.

I’ve owned:

Phase Linear 400

Carver Cube

Two Carver C-500’s verticly bi-amped.

You don’t like my opinion. You’ve gone to great length to copy every word… cool I’m glad my posts were informative

To comment on my limited posts.. I’ve checked Audiogon at least monthly for over ten years. I’ve bought items I’ve read about from this forum. I’ve learned a great deal reading all of your posts. I just was never moved to contribute anything until this thread. This truly deeply disgusts me. It eats at my passion for this hobby. I contribute and am far more involved in other forums. Not because I dislike Audiogon… but frankly, because much of the gear and reviews are at a price point I rarely can be involved in. I’m a lower tear in gear. Products like Rogue, Jolida, Roksan, Bryston, Spacial Audio, Alon, Monitor Audio.. I don’t often play in the Krell, Wilson, McIntosh world. Being “around” the industry I have had the opportunity to listen to and compare many high end brands.. but not to own them. So dislike me if you wish, we’d probably like each other if we met face to face and started to talk about how much we each love music and audio.

I wont post anymore, no point in it.

@funky54

What a massive steaming pile of non-committal dodging. I sincerely hope every 275 is returned for a full refund… then they can remarket them as the “Brown -120 watt amp” that’s only missing 120 of its advertised watts.

so what’s it to you? all 15 posts to your credit... below is the sum total of ALL your contributions to this forum

so do you own the amp? do you feel better now -- stopping by, leaving your turd here? are you lookin’ out for all the rest of us, with your righteous indignation?

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funky54

Responses from funky54

What a massive steaming pile of non-committal dodging. I sincerely hope every 275 is returned for a full refund… then they can remarket them as the “Brown -120 watt amp” that’s only missing 120 of its advertised watts. 

The 30 days appears to no longer be a limiting factor:

https://carverstereoforum.com/forums/topic/bob-carvers-response-to-275-forum-controversy/

...within 30 days from purchase.

That has definitely not always been the case.  Someone asked him about returning a 275 they bought from him two years prior and he said no on the 15th of January because it was outside the 30 day return window, then went in and edited that answer yesterday to say yes.

Regardless, this offer appears to not involve the dealers, an owner would send the amp back to Carver and get a refund from Carver.

@paulbottlehead

that has always been the case... money back guarantee, no restocking fees, from jim clark...

https://jimclarkstereo.com/BOB-CARVER-c34333001

He did say customers can send them back to Carver for a refund. 

Jim Clark updated his forum stating the amp is safe as is but they will update the ground for free and cover shipping costs

"We know that the 275 is perfectly safe the way it is currently wired. If you want it grounded another way, send it in and we can rewire it so the earth ground connects directly to the chassis, us paying shipping both ways. We stand behind the product and its quality.”

Thank you.
 

Carverfest Amps and how to measure them. A note from Bob. – Carver Stereo Forum

@mulveling , what you say makes total sense.  Thank you.  I've enjoyed your posts recently.  

Also, I was using the 275 with 102dB efficient loudspeakers, which could make it difficult for me to detect the available runway.  

My buddy has spacial turbos M3 and drives them with 400 watts oer channel of class D amps, he borrowed my crimson 275 and said he had to keep the volume at 1/4 which was less than the class D and indicated the sound was better.Tube amplifiers in general even with really low watts per channel seem to drive speakers easier than solid state rated at the same watts per channel. Maybe someone could shed some light on why (higher current)

Don't confuse power for gain, or volume position. Tube amps often have a relatively high sensitivity & gain. The Carver 275 is spec'd at 29dB gain. That's a lot for only 75 Watts / ch! It's a LOT LOT of gain for a 15 Watts / ch amp! Many tube amps lead with a V1 12ax7, and a lot of gain can come from that.

For comparison: the Parasound JC5 is also spec'd at that same 29dB gain - but with 400 Watts versus the Carver's 15? 60? The problem (for the Carver) is that the JC5 has a lot more "runway" before it runs out of juice. 

High gain in an amp is good when there's a LOT of power on hand to be tapped, or when the use case is for sources with low output levels (e.g. vinyl with a very low output cartridge < 0.2mV, or passive preamps, etc). In the modern era, a low power high gain tube amp doesn't make as much sense IMO.

The subjective sound quality of the 275 has never been in question.  The specifications, however, are very much in question. 

 I have a crimson 275 and love the sound, it can drive the following speakers with ease, Bowers and Wilkens 803s which are 8 ohm 90 db, this was in my living room which is 15x25x9, I also drive them with rotel RB 1080 which has 200 watts per channel and sounds great, the crimson 275 sounded even better and drive them effortlessly, I also have carver amazing silver speakers which are  4 ohm 85 db and again the crimson 275 drove them with ease, I have read that the amazing silvers are hard to drive and some people use up to 1000 watts per channel to drive them, also have Ars Aures MI speakers which are 4 ohm 89 db and yes the crimson drove them with ease. My buddy has spacial turbos M3 and drives them with 400 watts oer channel of class D amps, he borrowed my crimson 275 and said he had to keep the volume at 1/4 which was less than the class D and indicated the sound was better.Tube amplifiers in general even with really low watts per channel seem to drive speakers easier than solid state rated at the same watts per channel. Maybe someone could shed some light on why (higher current) I am an electrical engineer but my half life expired about 41 years ago yikes lol. That being said the I love the way the crimson 275 sounds.

take care

Yes, Austinlawyer, Music Direct stopped selling them as well as an outfit on the East Coast, whose name escapes me at the moment. 

@jjptkd  

Anyone who wants to sell a Crimson 275 for $5 let me know I'll cover shipping thanks.

HA!  

Not sure if this has been posted yet or not, if so, I apologize.

Music Direct has indicated that amp is no longer available from them.

https://www.musicdirect.com/power-amp/Bob-Carver-275-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier

@invalid I think the one  from 2 years ago is going to be very accurate. He and his wife owned 100% of Sunfire and when they sold it to Core Brands in 2011 it had sales in excess of $15M a year.

I wrote Frank Malitz and informed of the safety issue with lack of a proper chsssis ground.  (I’m not installing one myself as I am not an expert in safety when it comes to this type of ground.)

I also asked him if he could, in turn, tell me whether Bob specified the Edcor 15w output transformers?  
 

Frank responded quickly and said:

“the design is under review with engineering and I'll contact you tomorrow.”

I’ll keep folks on this thread informed about what I hear back from him.  

I just looked up Bob Carver's net worth on the net, $39.3 million.  Just a bit of information to add to the mix.

I wonder how accurate that is, because I looked it up about 2 years ago and it was 8 million at that time.

I just looked up Bob Carver's net worth on the net, $39.3 million.  Just a bit of information to add to the mix.

@jbhiller I also use Brimar 12AT7s, and the Gold Lion 12AX7s.  No noise problems yet.  I *did* have an issue shortly after purchase--one channel developed distortion.  After some inital hassle (Covid was just appearing in China) I managed to get the schematic, and our technician at work repaired it for me.  It had some bad current-source transistors at the output.  He ordered a batch and replaced them all with matched ones.  So if you ever have trouble with yours I do have the schematic.

Anyone who wants to sell a Crimson 275 for $5 let me know I'll cover shipping thanks.

IMO Carver starts new companies so he won't have to be responsible for the cheap crap he designed while learning the craft and that's now breaking down.

I once sold a new Carver piece for $5 as is just so it would leave my store and never return. Just sayin.

@grovergardner , In the Doge I really like NOS Brimar 12AT7sbut the reissue Mullards 12AX7s (when from a good source) are very quiet.  Reissue Gold Lions are fantastic yet I have had them grow noisier overtime.  
 

The Doge experience is really first rate. Wooden crate and boxing. Shipped to me inChicagoland in just a few days via DHL. 
 

Customer service abs communication is really responsive. 
 

Doge is a legitimate company owned and operated by its chief engineer.  This is not stuff you get on Alibaba or eBay.  

Yes @charles1dad you are correct.   My 300 b uses Lundahl PT and OPT and I think it makes a big difference. 
 

Many years ago, I built a pair of single-ended 845 monoblocks for a friend.  He uses them with some old Gallo towers (remember those?)  By any technical measure they shouldn't have worked--but they do, and he still uses them with great pleasure.  No less than David Berning actually paid me a compliment on the amps.  So there are anomalies in this world of audio.

I suspect this is  the result of a robust power supply  and very good quality output transformers. Always seems the common denominator for well performing SET/tube amplifiers. 

Charles 

@grovergardner , You are the voice of reason and a wealth of knowledge.  Many folks hop in to spew diarrhea of the mind with no point, or only to criticize.  This is, after all, a passionate hobby for most of us!  Thank you!

I'll take you up on that bet--just for fun.  I'd love to hear and nice W2, 3, or 4.  My 300 B (Elekit) sounds great on the Cornwalls, but at 8 watts it could use a bit more in my room--and I don't listen that loud.  While the C-Walls are super efficient, I do think they like a bit more wattage than flea or minimal SET to get moving---that's only based on listening. 

Yes, the Crimson does sound very good with the C-Walls. It's just sad that they did what they did with it.  Maybe I'lll fix the problems: add a chassis ground, install a backlit meter, and upgrade a few other things, including isolating the transformers a bit.  

And finally, I do own a Doge DAC 7.  People don't believe me how good it sounds.  It is stellar. The build quality on it crushes things people pay $5k for and then some.  I've mated it with all sorts of preamps and integrated. It plays well, always.  

I also own the Doge Clarity preamp.  All Clarity caps throughout the signal side of things.  Doge sources parts from all over the world and surprisingly few are Chinese.  Most are German, Swiss, British, Japanese, and US.  The build quality here is stellar too.  There's a few nits to pick but at $2k it can play with preamps costing twofold its ask.  

I think my real woe with the Crimson is (a) not likely being able to pair it with less efficient speakers; and (b) a sadness that Bob Carver's swan song is a bit blemished.  I feel sorry for him, but more sorry for the folks that made the actual misrepresentations.  They played the short game.  

Thank you Grovergardner!  You pass the audiophile "beer test" and then some!

OMG!  I just noticed you have a Doge DAC 7!  I LOVE mine.  I only know one other person who has one.  What tubes are you using in it?

But regarding the Crimson, I'll bet a case of nice Oregon wine that a classic Williamson--like the Heathkit W2, W3 or W4--would beat that Carver hands down on your Cornwalls.

I'll suggest some evaluation at this point.  IMO, the amp is cleverly designed to provide 17wpc continuous across the bandwidth at low distortion, with some pretty fair peak power into 8 ohms.  It's a "concept" amp, and as such it succeeds, IMO--a clever design, light weight, large under-biased output tubes that will last for years, current feedback to adjust for low-frequency speaker impedance swings.  Many people say it sounds great--and it probably does in many circumstances.  My old ProAc Response 2's only need 15 wpc to sound really nice in my room.  With the peak reserve, they'd probably be very happy with the Crimson (now Raven, apparently).

The problem is that the amp is sold at 75wpc 20Hz-20kHz at less than 1% distortion.  The amp clearly cannot meet those specs.  Jim Clark claims that only the sound matters--and he's right in some respects, but audiophiles aren't stupid.   Sound matters, but so do honest specs.  So Jim is in a terrible position.  An example of honest marketing from the days of yore was posted above, with an eye on the intelligent buyer (and he had to have some deep pockets back then) who valued technical competence as well as sound.

jbhiller, the only answer is, does the amp work for you at the price you paid?  

Many years ago, I built a pair of single-ended 845 monoblocks for a friend.  He uses them with some old Gallo towers (remember those?)  By any technical measure they shouldn't have worked--but they do, and he still uses them with great pleasure.  No less than David Berning actually paid me a compliment on the amps.  So there are anomalies in this world of audio.

I'm off to Discogs to do some "retail therapy", and buy some nice pressing that will make me smile and stop thinking about what a mess Bob Carver's amp appears to be. 

@jbhiller 

Why is Jim Clark, a dealer, defending the product, but there are circuitous and scant responses from Frank Malitz, Wyred4Sound, and even Bob Carver?  

I questioned the build quality on certain areas, as a hobbyist.  Now, it is more than confirmed that there are multiple more questionable things going on, and the marketing of the product is totally wrong and misleading. 

Absolutely +1.

Charles 

Sad results.  The machine Amir at ASR reviewed had worse build quality than mine, in the form of super high gauge wire going to the speaker output terminals, a missing bolt, and so on.  Disgraceful. 

Mine also has no chassis grounding, which is a touch scary given the voltages in the unit. 

Mine has the slots on the PCB, C4 and C19 (going by memory), missing the actual caps.  The ASR review sample has caps in those slots, but they are mounted on the other side of the board.  ??????? 

Whatever wattage this thing makes sounds good into super sensitive speakers. But thanks to the teardown, we can see the OPTs are just 15W Edcors.  

What is going on with the differences in build quality? 

Why is Music Direct (and other retailers) no longer selling the product? Hmmm...

Why is Jim Clark, a dealer, defending the product, but there are circuitous and scant responses from Frank Malitz, Wyred4Sound, and even Bob Carver?  

I questioned the build quality on certain areas, as a hobbyist.  Now, it is more than confirmed that there are multiple more questionable things going on, and the marketing of the product is totally wrong and misleading. 

True Tomic, but any self respecting audiophile is apparently required to crap on McIntosh at any given opportunity. 😃

Actually my 1961 MC240 will run my 3 ohm Apogee Stage just fine. It’s probably not a combo for the deaf or AC/DC duty, but it’s solidly musical. I guess 40 wpc at Binghamton meant something, well actually last time I measured it was 52 wpc. No puppies died in the informed writing of this post.

of course it’s 50# of beefy transformers at work, Phd in ? Be fanged..,.danged, whatever…

Is it 60W sustained if that blew the fuse?

Haha, good point. I'm sure putting in a larger fuse value might allow Bob's circuit magic to be unleashed. Of course you have to insert the fuse JUST right, because as we all know now, the grounding in this amp is very complex 😂

Does 60W at 1% THD/1kHz matter when you're looking at single digit power at 1% THD above 5kHz and down in the bass?

We know the rational answer 

Charles 

Is it 60W sustained if that blew the fuse?

Does 60W at 1% THD/1kHz matter when you're looking at single digit power at 1% THD above 5kHz and down in the bass?

To be fair, the ASR measurements show it performing a lot better into 8 ohms: 60 Watts/ch sustained at 1kHz, and at less than 1% THD. The really bad numbers, where it greatly underachieves its rated power (< 20 Watts/ch), are into 4 ohms. Without multiple taps this amp can only be optimized for one load, and it looks like it’s 8 ohms.

It did better than I expected at 8 ohms, but then 60 is still clearly under rated power, and it blew a fuse on top of that. And power bandwidth is clearly a big shortcoming here, probably much more than with other tube amps. 

It’s probably not filling any necessary market slot with this performance.

The Carver amplifier manufacturer should simply come forward and revise their power outage specifications. Present what is accurate and factual.

Charles

Power problems are apparent here.  Less than 2W available at less than 1% THD over 5kHz.  The 20Hz trace is also not so great.

Self-explanatory.

A 1kHz burst tone can let almost 75W out, but a 1-2 second tone cannot. 

Amir at Audiosciencereiew did a thorough set of measurements of the amp.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/carver-crimson-275-review-tube-amp.29971/

@grovergardner ---Thank you!  I may try that for fun soon.  I appreciate your help. 

The speaker ground vs. audio ground issue was brought to my attention and I tried the suggestion of connecting my FFT to the audio ground instead of the speaker ground and it made no appreciable difference.  Amir is also aware of this and I believe he will be posting his measurements very shortly. 

I had a crimson 275  in my system for about 2 weeks. To be fair, the unit appeared to offer more power and headroom than my lowest wattage amps on hand at the time (35 watt Latino ST-70 and Muzishare X7). The sound of the Crimson 275 was fine, not great, not terrible. Fine. However, I didn't feel it was worth the price given the ST-70 is half the price and also made in the U.S.A.  

In the end, I sent the unit back because the transformer buzz was clearly heard from 10 feet away. JCS honored their return process for which I'm grateful. I'd hate to be stuck with one of these given recent drama since most secondhand buyers will probably be turned off at anything but fire sale pricing.

For an industry and hobbyists obsessed with specifications, and wary of snake oil, this unit seems like a major gaff. 

@funky54 A refrained and even keeled response and I compliment you on it.