Paypal issue beware.


I sold a $1500 amp to someone here notified after delivery had physical damage to it looked like it was dropped. Anyhow contacted UPS to process a shipping claim. In the mean time he filed a pay pal case. Fine told him we would go through that process.  PayPal goes and gives him back his money with out tracking or evidence he sent it back! I call they said because he used some sort of mandated government payment they do not require any evidence that it was shipped back.  

What type of payment is this?


So the guy can order stuff put in a case saying it did not meet description and get money back with out returning a item? This makes no sense will never sell using pay pal again.   Just spent an hour on the phone with them.  Also I want to know what type of account this is seems like the best scam going order a whole bunch of crap say it didn't meet description and get money back and not have to return it.  I'm out $1500 paypal even charged me the fees for there great service and I don't have my product back! I don't understand how this is allowed. 

programmergeek
Those who say he accepted it so you can’t file a damage claim are incorrect. I recently received some speakers that were not packed properly and got dinged up bouncing around in the box with no damage to the box. I picked them up at UPS and discovered the damage when I got home. The shipper filed a claim and UPS then required an inspection. They will either ask for pictures, come pick up the item to take it back for inspection, or you can request they come to you. If the buyer can’t produce the item for inspection or prove they shipped it back I would say it is on him. I’m not sure how you deal with PayPal though.

You may have a case for wire fraud involving interstate commerce. I would check with a lawyer. Call the FBI. They guy certainly broke some state or federal law if he cheated you out of $1500.

BTW UPS did pay my claim based on pictures I sent them. The trick is unless you have the original package, they will claim improperly packed unless you pay the UPS store to pack it, which I did. Then they can’t use that excuse and have to pay. It costs a little more but on an expensive item well worth it. They also didn't ask for the speakers back. They were dinged on the edges but I patched them up and you can't see any damage unless you go up close and look for it. 
In nearly 700 transactions buying and selling, I have been "robbed" 5 times. Either buyer claims item wasn't as described and sent back something different or did even communicate. Each time ebay / paypal ignored the evidence and I was out the money and they billed me for the sale. Most of the time these folks turned out to be apartment renters and reshipping to another country. When I contacted local PDs they were of no practical help. Just not a priority for under resource for their case levels. Being right and pursuing costs the victim more in legal, travel, time and aggravation. Crooks know it. And when you do as I did once, what will you do / achieve? You are out more money or if you confront them in person, someone goes to jail or hospital and it could be you. Not worth all that. In business accounting we had "bad debit" and "uncollected" factored. It's NOT right at all but it is gonna happen because there is more and more opportunity and fewer and fewer people are honest and ethical. There was the Ice Age, the stone age, the age of fire, the bronze age, the industrial age, the information age and increasingly so over the past several decades we have the age of the liar and cheat. I am much slower to upgrade audio gear via online platforms such as ebay and agon and audio marts because reselling on line once safe and pleasant is now dreaded and even to be avoided. Sorry for these developments and folks' losses. Sucks to be a victim but sucks more to dwell and not move on to more positive. Life is short. We can collectively make a difference when we realize and act knowing PayPal and the like will only respond to the economic imperative of a decline in revenues due to a decline in use and advertising. Adjust in ways that work best for your well-being and enjoy the music , your family and friends. Offered with the utmost respect and kind regards. Namaste  
@programmergeek , sorry for your problems but appreciate the thread, which is full of good information and reminders.
I would add two things after reading through the issues posters have described.
First, you cannot overestimate the value of packing something well and going the extra mile to double box, ship on a pallet (when necessary), and generally over-package everything.
Second, there is value in the Audiogon community and feedback system. It is not perfect, but it is something. Whether you are a buyer or seller, seeing the length of time your trading partner has been around here and reading testimonials written about that person by other folks on this site, provides at least a baseline as to whether you want to trade with them or not. Being able to set parameters for those you trade with is also helpful. For example, when buying or selling expensive and/or heavy hard-to-pack and ship items, there is value in dealing with folks who have done this before and are known for taking extra care in packing, shipping through a suitable carrier, insuring, and following-up. This stuff will not prevent occasional problems but it is something folks can look at to safeguard themselves.
So here is what I have learned from this discussion to do business on PayPal. 

Scam
Buyer received item but says item not as expected. 
Files a claim with PP and can  get money back immediately if it is still in your account. 
They do not have to prove "not as expected". 
They do not have to send the item back to keep the refund. 

Questions :
What if they send back the wrong item
What if they send back an empty box. 

Now you have a worthless  counter claim.... 

Here is what I will be doing from now on. 
Remove all sources of payment from PP other than a prepaid card. 
Fund  prepaid only as needed for purchases. 
Remove all money from PP immediately up receiving. 

Should this protect me from the scammers? 

PayPal is a value tool





Many years ago I sold a Mac preamp to some guy in Italy.He filed a complaint with Paypal,that he hadn't received it.Paypal never bothered to inform me that a complaint had been filed.Anyway,I log into my Paypal account and find that $714 have been given back to the buyer.At that time Paypal had a money market fund that paid the highest rate in the country,so I left money at Paypal.Later,I found out that the Italian postal service is a mess and many sellers won't ship there.A few weeks later the buyer emails me that he received the preamp and the front glass is broken.I figure that being in the Italian post office for 5 weeks,they kicked it around and broke the glass.So,now I decide to file a damage claim with USPS.USPS says the buyer has already filed a claim and I can't.I inform Paypal and they tell me they sent me 4 emails during the original complaint period and I never responded.I know they never sent any emails but contacting Yahoo mail,I'm told that i can't prove that Paypal  never sent the emails.So,I give up and the buyer gets the preamp ,likely damage claim money and I'm out the preamp and shipping expense..Unless you are selling on Ebay and almost forced to accept Paypal,I would avoid Paypal.At least,if you use,have any money received transferred to a linked bank account asap after receiving any payments.