They have to make money to stay in business. The extreme high end keeps them afloat.
The extreme high end market is 90% outside the USA.
Hopefully they will still service their older products in the future.
Look at ARC...... their cheapest product is $8,000 Today.
There is little to no market, for the average audiophile (affordable for someone making $65k).
The great recession killed reasonably priced SOTA audio for the average audiophile.
Its cheap compared to other high end amp because everyone is pushing the envelope of what they can get away with..... The problem is that they can't sell many amps today. There has to be a point of staying in existence....If every manufacturer could sell amps like the mass builders do, they could afford lower prices. Manufactures will tell you that an entry level amp that sells for say $2000 may cost them $300 in their cost to produce, but a couple of models up that may sells for say $10,000 may cost the manufacturer $1000 or less....Not the case of course with Pass, the manufacturing of their case alone is several hundred dollars. Even though these numbers may be out of line, the essential idea expressed here is correct. We pay for their knowledge and level of performance that they can get a product to produce.... Manufacturers charge what the market will bare.
And so what? They're statement products for the wealthy few. As usual, if you are interested in their house sound, you will eventually benefit from trickle-down of the advanced design technology. No one is forcing you to buy, and there are many great values in new and used gear.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, unless it is just a passing observation of how expensive some gear can get.
Pass Labs is the best solid-state gear at this juncture.
The ultra-high end will trickle down to the rest of us.
Note that Nelson Pass has been working away in his own little Class A world for years on his First Watt amps that sell for relatively peanuts…3 grand or something? They’re so popular now that he recently decided to have the Pass Labs dudes build ’em. Dennis Had (retired from Cary audio) hand makes an Inspire "Fire Bottle" or "Hot Rod" single ended little gem about once a week, people seem to like those, and they’re around $1500 or so although maybe 12 single ended watts aren’t for you. My beautiful sounding "factory upgraded" Jolida 502p tube gem was under $1500 new and is a seriously good amp. I like Boulder amps and the D’Agostino gems, but the big secret in audio is that LOTS of stuff can get some sweet hifi tone into your ear balls for small money…when you win the lottery, get your Ferrari needs out of your system, dump your beautiful wife so 20 year old Ashley (who likes to try new things) can move into your 20,000 square foot McMansion with you, get the Boulder and the Magicos and think to yourself, "is this it?"
If you have big bucks its NOT nuts!!
If you have nuts it's not big bucks ;-).
Ancient Chinese proverb:
"The audiophile who has no ego, who cares not for the price of things will always have a better sounding stereo than those who do, and will spend less for it."
Thanks eric, I always thought that was a Buddhist saying .Live and learn .
Most make fun of these seemingly ludicrous prices but the irony of it all is generally the more expensive the XXX - fill in the blanks, the longer is the waiting line, unless you're willing to pay for the markup. See how long will you need to wait to get those puppies in your dedicated super duper dedicated listening room even if you have the $85K cash in hand.
Not sure how creating an air of exclusivity by limiting supply is ironic. I missed it.
It's always those who can't and never will who piss and whine about those who can.
If there's a market, why not? Oh that's right -- because the Entitlement Nation can't tolerate others having what they can't have. While they expect others to give them what they could never obtain themselves.
Oh boo hoo.
Bully to Pass and all who satisfy the needs of the few who deserve the best.
Those who deserve the best find it comes to them. Everyone else just spends a lot of cash.
I like the extreme high end in my various hobbies…cars, motorcycles, mechanical watches, audio…no problemo, and I have zero anxiety as, in my own way, I enjoy all of the above by finding less extreme examples that are friggin' great. Also, I don't think I know anybody who's part of the "entitlement nation" anteaterbark noted…are those those pesky poor people I keep reading about who want day care and food? Those people need to get out there and inherit something!
The fact that 20. 000 children a day starve to death might move the heart of some to give 75,000 to Save the Child fund and get by with a 10K speaker ..
Have to have a heart first though or you will think children in poorer counties.many of which have been made poor by richer countries , have no Entitlement to live .
Damn Schubert, you sure know how to ruin a party ;-). Growing up in the richest country in the world (are we still?), it's hard to not be spoiled. Not to be cold-hearted, but why do starving people keep having more kids? The organizations trying to help should pass out condoms along with food and water, ay?
I'm with you on the kid thing, which seems to be perpetuated by ignorance, poverty, and powerful religions. Get some condom cluster bombs going.
Full price is just point of reference...i mean you must be idiot to pay full price...i should not talk how much of discount i can get for all these brands in my country...markup is great, guy can give you hefty discount and still earn good money...all these brands allthough sounding good are simply overpriced...
Same reasons you would if you had a bigger heart and made less than 2 bucks a day.
You can’t buy a condom when you last penny is not really enough to fed you family.
You could feed them once upon a time but in 2008 fiasco Wall Street looked around for other money besides stock market , bought up commodity firms and drove up rice so high the 2 bucks a day folks could’d afford it . Child deaths from that are estimated at 65 million .Thank you 401k, aka Wall St slush fund .
What is the ONLY thing you can do that makes you feel good if only for a while and costs nothing.
They love children .
On the richest country, yes we are as a COUNTRY, bottom 50% make less that in several dozen countries . If you were paying attention at all you’d know all this .
I'm with you on this one Wolf. So much suffering would be alleviated if the poorest nations as well as the richest ones, like the U.S. would use birth control and stop casual procreation.
"What is the ONLY thing you can do that makes you feel good if only for a while and costs nothing."
I agree with you Schubert. I often think that is the reason many of these people have children, but it's not a good enough reason to create children that you can't support.
When you are in depths of complete utter poverty and degradation you and reason are total strangers . In their shoes you, and I, would do the same they do .
Majority of poor are poor because of western colonial sins in the first place
On the richest country, yes we are as a COUNTRY, bottom 50% make less that in several dozen countries
If you measure wealth per capita, the US is not the richest country. Not even close.
If you measure a nation’s wealth by its natural resources, the US is not the wealthiest. (But we’re close.)
If you measure a nation’s wealth by the size and power of its military, we are Number One. Hand's down.
Funny then we lost the Vietnam war and those in Iraq and Afganistan as well.
Best we could do in Korea was a tie which to me is a loss.
Civil War is still in progress , Confederates seem to be winning at this time ,
^^^^^^^^^^^ We are way OT here, schubert, but what you're talking about aren't military failures. They are political failures/problems.
Do tell, I was an Infantryman in Vietnam, we lost because the Generals and
other officers were concerned only with their next promotion so they refused to discipline troops and were all around incompetent .
Somebody had to end their party.
Every officer had the same line, "not much of a war but only one we have " .ha, ha , ha ha .
They did help me one way, I was a poor guy, never thought of college.
I became sure of one thing, if these idiots could do it, I damn sure could and I did .Summa Cum Laude
Au contraire Schubert, I have been paying attention, and I was indeed speaking of the U.S. as a country. We all know the rich have been getting richer and the poor poorer since Reagan instituted his failed trickle-down economic policies. Even the guy who came up with the idea has disavowed it as an economic theory proven wrong. Yet, here we are back again, with the Trumpster intending to do the same.
I asked "are we still?" because I’ve seen the stats from around the world. Swedes are a pretty contented bunch, even with their very high taxes. At least they get something for them! My sisters daughter lives in Germany, married to a German, and they too are happy with their system. I don’t know many Americans who are; in a few decades our educational system has become the joke of the world, our health care system is a mess, we are falling behind in moving into a future-based economy---Coal? Are you kidding me?!
Thank God for music---it makes all the rest bearable. To hear it in our homes, we need hi-fi equipment. Sorry for your plight starving peoples, but my going without music is not going to change your situation. Besides, my system is far more modest than most of ya’lls---I’m a "starving" musician ;-). The only Pass piece I have is the $1500 (list) First Watt B4 x/o.
I hear you , I'm in same boat . Fact remain's I could have saved some children's lives if I just listened to Radio and had given the money to them .
I've lived in Japan, Germany and France and agree with your niece .
"Those who deserve the best find it comes to them." What does THAT mean?
$85.000 & 65.000 Amps The extreme high gone nuts
Built for the glitz queens who have money to burn, all that CNC machining custom heatsinking and chassis work goes towards most of the costs.
Then you have Parasound Halo JC1’s monoblocks, cheaper case/heatsinks, circuitry innards just as well thought out, by JC.
" Price: $6000/pair. Approximate number of dealers: 20. Warranty: 10 years parts, 5 years labor (US, Canada)."
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-specifications#TLEq...
I’ve compared the $6k JC1’s against the gorgeous looking $60k Gryphon Antillion Evo on a pair of Wilson Alexia’s, after a/b’ing I "just" preferred the Gryphon but it’s 10 x the price.
JC1 for $6K a pair? Used may be. Last I checked they were more like $9K/pair. Still a good value but for that price you compete against a lightly used Pass XA.
"Those who deserve the best find it comes to them." What does THAT mean?"
Ask the Trump kids, they might be able to explain it.
Doubt it, sounds like a religious statement to me .
Don’t understand your last post Schubert but there is one thing we are certainly in total agreement on, empathy in this country and the world for that matter, towards those suffering through no fault of their own is really wanting. Your thoughts on these matters touch my heart Schubert, I hear you.
BHK Signature 300 Mono Amplifiers are just as good, They handle the IRS Betas Woofer towers with ease
I usually refrain from commenting in threads such as this, because these kinds of discussions tend to not be constructive and to have little to do with audio. In this case, however, I feel compelled to say that the post by Aardvarkbark seems to me to be among the most narrow-minded, arrogant, and lacking in empathy that I can recall seeing here.
This will be my only post in this thread. Regards,
Wow. Three cheers for compassion and an open heart! I usually get chased off of male dominated forums for standing up for the oppressed, let alone seeing others take that stance. This hasn't been a politically minded forum, so it makes me happy to see that you aren't all lacking in basic human qualities.
This is relative. Pointing to an $85k amp price that many folks, even here, think is "nuts," and suggesting that someone who can or does buy one is somehow heartless or lacks empathy. Is it the same with a $5 coffee, a $100 steak, $200 wine, $500 scotch, or almost anything else that the "first" world enjoys or takes for granted that many, many others can't (like even food at all or fresh water)?
I suspect most of the folks who bother to post have at least one component that sells for an amount probably 90+% of the population would think is nuts. Most, here, probably have systems in the top 1% in price and quality--probably not that difficult, though, when most of the world seems overjoyed with low-res digital, stock smartphone earbuds, an HTIB, or a soundbar.
Anyway, anyone here jumping to sell that 1% gear to fund grain (or, I guess, a condom cluster bomb (as suggested elsewhere)) for those who are less fortunate? For those kids who are starving, those who are ill...or those kids who will likely never have an opportunity to experience anything approaching hifi? If not, is that heartless and lacking empathy, too?
I certainly don't think so, but I'm not buying $85k amps (which IS pretty nuts), either. But, if there are folks who can and are willing to pay that...good for them and good for Pass and good for any other luxury-product-maker-person.
Maybe I'm just a sociopath, but I don't feel heartless or guilty if I stop for a red-eye at a coffee shop on the way to work or grill a USDA prime grade strip steak on the weekend.
Off to roll in some new 6sl7 in amps that cost significantly less than $85k. Maybe, though, the next time I'm ready to click "buy it," I'll make an additional donation, instead.
Stfoth - I agree completely. I think it's crazy that there are things that cost as much as they do, but I tend to notice it, remark on its insanity, then go about my day.. I think the responses about compassion and the plight of the less fortunate were in response to the post suggesting that those of us calling attention to such expensive gear are simply jealous that we haven't been given super expensive gear. That we are entitled. But I think for most of us it's the cognitive dissonance that comes with knowing this world has people paying $90k for stereo equipment at the same time there are people living off less than $2/day.
I'm not jealous, nor do I carry around hatred for those who own such things. But it's hard not to notice such outrageous price tags when they do pop up.
I posted an honest question a while back asking who would buy a Boulder 3060 amp hoping to learn more about the type of speakers that demand such an amp and the discussions went the same way as this thread. Lessons learned.
Get a Pass amp its only 65k be a sport ASAP!!!
Well, you guys have gotten me to jump, I’ve been reading this thread as it progresses and of course, I’m an audiophile and have an opinion about all of it.
So first... mega buck product? Over the years, I’ve been in business as a manufacturer, a manufacturers rep and a retailer, today, I’m a hobbyist. I’ve been to more shows than I care to count. I’ve walked into MANY show rooms of mega buck gear and shook my head wondering how someone could pay it, but in the same vain, every time I see a new mega buck product, I wonder, wow, for that price, is it better? Do they know something? and say, I’d like to try it.
So, If my funds were endless, would I purchase any of this gear? I don’t know, but I do know that its not crazy to try it.... As mentioned above, I’ve certainly had my share of $100 steaks through the years (and I look Like it) where many in this world are grateful to get a cup of rice and no, I would not sell my system to feed the world... you know, maybe if I truly believed that It would fix the world, but no, I wouldn’t sell my system, but I do donate regularly to help causes.... I think the issue that has enflamed others in comments above isn’t about spending the money or other human beings being desolate, but more the heartless uncaring attitude toward their circumstance.
Next, even though I don’t love people making money on me, I really don’t have an issue with a company or someone making a buck where they can.... for us on an audiophile forum, I feel that we need to where possible keep our forum as intended as a helping hand to educate, give helpful advice and promote our hobby.
So, Pass gear. It is as good of an overall line that exist on the planet... everyones taste, of course not, but Nelson has a reputation because of his outstanding product and his giving to the Audiophile community.
If you guys can afford a $65,000 amp bravo to you, but for those like me, there is always a ton of advice and recommendations on less expensive gear in this community....
I hope this helps, Tim
I am of the belief that there has never been a better time to be in the market for a high fidelity system than now, regardless of budget. Much of this due to those who pushed the high end envelope while offering 'affordable' products.
Does Nelson pass have anything to do with pass labs now? I didn't think so. I consider him One of the good guys who gives back to the DIY community, not one of these con artists who is trying to make millions on fancy casework
Mesch, I agree in general, but MANY Americans make less money today.adjusted for inflation, than they did 30 years ago .
So, has anyone actually listened to these amps? Impressions over lower level Pass or in comparison to our lowly, but still 1%, Halos, First Watts, Carys, etc.?
George came close with a note about Gryphon.
@mesch--I'd submit that the best time to have been in the market for high-end gear was probably 2009-2011, at least in the US. I missed "opportunities" to pick up gear at firesale prices on the fear and unfortunate circumstances of others.