Paradigm Personas: A First Listen


I thought starting a new thread would be more appropriate since it would allow for a more focused discussion.

I have Paradigm S8v2s and have owned them, since new, for 8 years.  I have lived with them happily and when I bought them I knew they were going to be a long term purchase.  Cables, sources etc may come and go but big speakers are harder to find, harder to move and sell (I think).  I found a local dealer (the only one in BC so far) that has the entire Persona line; except the 7F.  They had the 9H, 5F, 3F and Monitor.  I got to hear all of them.  The 9H was in a dedicated room set up for home theatre.  The others were in a 2 channel only system.  Preamp/source was a Cambridge Audio preamp with a media player built in, Wadia Class D amps.  System was nice, sounded good and not the "highest end" you would expect, but more real world.  I took along a CD of Parijat: Prayer to Love (excellent CD BTW.  Highly recommended and wonderfully recorded).  I am very familiar with the CD.  My system has its own room, Luxman Class A amps, Luxman preamp, Bryston DAC, Nordost and Wirewizard Cables.  I think my system has an edge on electronics, but I will leave that out as I think that is splitting hairs.

First speaker I heard was the 5F.  The first thing that is immediate is the midrange and treble purity, clarity, integration, smoothness and extension.  I definitely say there is no discontinuity between the mid/tweeter.  Having a Beryllium tweeter myself I know what to expect, and the 5F did not disappoint.  The sound was relaxed, clear, focused with excellent detail.  No harshness, grain, etch or sibilance at all.  Imaging was also excellent; focused, wide and deep with good height.  Note that the 5F, 3F were right beside each other and the Monitors on stands right beside the 3's.  They were in an open room not a dedicated room, so I could only suspect the speakers would sound better as the environment would get better.  In short, the tweeter/mid was superb.  The best I have heard.  I would give the edge to the Persona's over my S8's in this regard, but given the mid and tweeter are both Beryllium they are going to have identical resonances on the fact the material is the same; it will be homogenous.  The S8 is no slouch, so the differences are small, but I give the Persona the edge here.  And I like my S8's.  I have not felt wanting.

The description for the mid/tweeter is identical for each model; there was no difference, perhaps a slight difference for the Monitor but its limited lower end might of SEEMED things to be more clear/detailed.  Hard to say.  Bottom end on the 9H was robust, to be polite, but to be expected too.....4 8 inch cones internally powered...I think a subwoofer here would be redundant in all but the largest rooms to be sure.  But the snap, punch and detail were excellent.  Moving to the 5 and 3, the bottom end was not as prodigious but still extended and tuneful.  Detail was excellent but to be expected the 5 was more pronounced than the 3.  I think both (and the Monitor for sure) would benefit from a sub, but I leave that to the reader's personal taste.  There was no evidence of port noise or discontinuity of any type.  Unfortunately, I have yet to find out (if you would like to bi amp) WHERE the biamp crossover is.  I found out the hard way on my S8 it is between the tweeter/mid, not the mid/bass as you would expect.  This would allow for a Class A or tube amp on the all important mid/tweeter and a robust amp for the bottom end.  I would like Paradigm to be clear on this point as finding out the hard way for me was costly.  I let a good Bryston amp go for no reason other than the fact it was not able to work in my system as planned.  

I suppose the real question is this:  are they worth it?  Well, I thought about my own system on the drive home, and since my system's weak point is NOT the speakers, I would, for me, not buy or let my S8 go unless someone gave me a good offer.  The logistics of selling speakers that are 4 feet tall, almost 2 feet deep and 100lbs is not a small feat, and shipping (unless local pickup) will be expensive.  I bought the S8 knowing it was going to be with me for a long time, and in fact I would rather keep them since they are so good (to me).   But I would buy the Personas for sure.  The high end purity and midrange clarity, coherence and detail are so good I was floored by how good it was.  Bottom end weight and volume is a personal preference, and adding subs obviates the comparison there, as either the 5 or 3 would be a killer system with subs.  I had extended time with the 5 and 3 and the jump in price between the two makes sense if the sub is out of the equation.  I think the added bottom end on the 5 could easily be made up with the 3 and a good sub, think JL Audio f112, e110 or e112.  An outboard crossover as part of the deal would be stating the obvious (in fact the JL Audio CR 1 crossover is what I am eyeing next.  With this, should some time down the road come I decide to jump up to the Personas finances permitting, it would greatly affect what Persona I get).  But by then I might have a different room so whom knows, but so long as the flexibility is there you have options.  I was hoping to see the 7F but the 9H is almost identical in  size.  Considering the competition they are up against I think they hold very well.  Making a matching Beryllium tweeter and mid is no small feat, and costly to boot.  Moreover, Paradigm's size and economy of scale is such that you get more than you pay for, this has been a Paradigm hallmark.  A smaller company could bring out a matched Beryllium set, perhaps, but at what cost?  I can see why the Persona line costs more, but after seeing them and listening to them, I don't feel at all that they are overpriced or outrageous.  Obviously the sound is what counts, but there is more to it than that.  I honestly think you get what you pay for; the real trick is finding the goods out there that go a step further and really offer the "diamond in the rough".  For me personally, the cost and logistics of selling my current speakers is not something I can do right now.  But if I could, I would have no issue owning a Performa.  The 7F is what I have sought my sights on, but the 5F is no slouch.  As a smaller speaker, there is little to fault the 3F and add in a sub (or two)....watch out.  Even without subs, the 5 and the 3 are more than pleasant, and in a enclosed room where there is room reinforcement......it would be interesting to know.

Pictures do not do the speakers justice.  They are gorgeous.  Fit and finish is superb, certainly better than my S8. The lenses are really trick.  I don't think there should be any trouble with the WAF but their styling is a bit modern, some might not like it.  The room presence is not nearly as strong as you would think; the S8 being so deep and narrow hides in the room well.  The Personas do as well, but are so gorgeous you don't want to hide them.  You would think the 9H to be imposing, but that is not the case, especially if you are use to bigger speakers anyway.

I am very impressed and happy that the "step up" Paradigm has made has been done well, with thought, focus and obvious results.  As to relative to what is out there, especially to what I have heard, they compete favourable with much more expensive speakers, and I have heard Focals (which is another brand I like because, surprise, they have a Beryllium tweeter).  I just think the matching tweeter/mid, especially at the price, is hard to beat.  And I am sure that the better the gear upstream would only help the sound.  The 5Fs or 3Fs in my system with the gear I have would be very interesting.

Who knows what the year brings.  I give the Personas the highest recommendation, and this is from someone whom has owned a good pair for years without complaint.  If anyone is thinking of trying out a pair I urge you to do so if possible before making any decisions.  Paradigm, with the Personas, has truly evolved into a high end brand, and deserves consideration as such.  

 
128x128blackfly
Plot of the next James Bond movie: evil genius corners the world market in beryllium, perfects an alchemical method, and turns it all into unobtainium...
If beryllium is so perfect why do the mids and highs sound so bright forward and edgy? I guess the people at paradigm can't hear very well.
Come on @urbie19!  You're giving the rest of us who aren't too enthusiastic about those Paradigm models a bad name. The level of your rancor would suggest that a Persona had run over your dog or absconded with your wife...
urbie19...

I have to admit that you’re incredibly persistent ... your constant pollution in the forum continues.
I and many others that have listened to the paradigm persona find the mid-range and highs bright forward and hard sounding because that's what beryllium is. I prefer speaker that sounds natural and neutral not break an edgy.Paradigm of tried to move into the high-end not very successfully with the persona series their overpriced compared to other better speakers like Sonus Faber, Wilson benesch, monitor audio Platinum which are way better in three-dimensionality depth and imaging than anything that paradigm has.
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Actually the beryllium Tweeter is not the most resolute on the market. the AMT Tweeter is much better more open more natural not bright sounding. Everything sounds more real with an AMT tweeter. If you like bright edgy in your face highs than yes go for the paradigm. Monitor audio Platinum is a much better speaker more three-dimensional imaging adepts are way better the separation and air between the instruments is a much better. Go compare the two yourself you'll see what I mean. The monitor audio Platinum driver technology is way ahead of paradigm.
Just so you know paradigm does not make their own beryllium Tweeter and midrange they outsource it they only make their woofers at least monitor Audio designs all their drivers and that's why I believe that the monitor audio Platinum are much better than the persona they sound more human life like there's no edge to the symbols like on the beryllium tweeter.
steve59,

I did have Revel F52 speakers several years ago, but I have never owned Salon 2s or the 9Hs. I went from having several Wilson Audio speakers to Revel F52s to Revel F208s to Aerial 7Ts and now I have Monitor Audio PL500 II speakers.
I liked the Esotar 2 and SS ring radiater a lot...the Magnapan ribbon and Titanium domes appeal to me because they do cymbals well albeit not as sweet as the aforementioned.  The old Bozak dual paper tweeters were special.  I thought the B&W Diamonds were one of the best at balancing sweetness with definition and air!
Not materials as much as transition from drivers. ricred1 I think I followed your path from the f52 to the salon2 and now the 9H? besides the active bass how else would you compare the speakers to each other? The 9H is much more than I can fit in my room but, the line shows potential.
@dave_b,

what are your favorite materials for drivers?. This thing should be something easy to test properly. I remember Voxativ's owner saying something similar to you referring to aluminum drivers, like a 'non musical material', and praising the woods&paper. 
Notice the mention of the upper register problem and the tweeter harshness in the 10 review?  Always look for the offhand, casual mentions in reviews...they turn out to be the biggest problems!  As I said before, beryllium is not a musical material...a liquid sweet pure tone for violins it will not reproduce.  More bite than brass on horns and a touch of sandpaper on cymbals.  That’s what I hear 👂 
I just found a review of Persona B, bookshelves I was interested before the review

http://10audio.com/paradigm_persona-b.htm

the review is crystal clear, it's not to usual useless professional review garbage. Highly recommended. 
"Certainly a person’s preference for speakers and equipment is very subjective.  Each of us may define “great” sound differently." You're making my point. There are no absolutes in Audio,  only preferences. 
Ricred1 -

Certainly a person’s preference for speakers and equipment is very subjective.  Each of us may define “great” sound differently.  That said, I have to agree with AudioTroy on his assessment of the Paradigm Personas.  Note, I am not a dealer.  Just an avid fan of music and love listening to it.  I auditioned many brands before deciding to purchase the Paradigm Persona 9h’s.  This includes speakers at significantly higher price points and brands that many equate to top audiophile performance.  I personally found the Personas to offer the best overall detail, dimension, and soundscape with the most natural tonality.  I am sure some may disagree and some may agree.  Luckily there are many brands and options out there so we can each find what works for our personal tastes.  
As a former Paradigm Signature series owner I'm inclined to believe I would like the Persona B.  I am not attempting to highjack this thread, but I would be interested in knowing how Fritz Carrera BE might compare to the Persona B.  Are they in the same league?  Will they play at similar volume levels?  Does anybody have experience with both?
audiotroy,

" We feel that a properly setup pair of Personas are a bargain for what you get we replaced a $70k pair of Polymer Research MKX s loudspeakers with a set of $35k Personas and never Looked back."

You are a dealer for Paradigm; therefore the above statement carries far less weight. I've never heard you or any dealer say a bad word about a product they carry...at least not on Audiogon. Many dealers say component X is a bargain compared to another component. You talk about the Persona's as if they make every other speaker obsolete and that's just crazy talk. 
Dave and Troy are inserting themselves a bit much here.  Maybe it’s the grammatical errors or perhaps the product testimonials, but it’s getting to be a little off putting.  Anyway, back to the Personas.  Only time will tell if they satisfy the listeners soul.  Some speakers can seem to thrill you with stunning detail and transparency, but consequently rob the listener of the connective tissue that allows the music to come alive and breathe and sound human.  It’s a most fickle and elusive apparition we pursue...a musical ghost we attempt to capture and sustain, only to kill it with our over analysis and obsessive tendencies.  Good luck to all who venture down this potholed, winding road less traveled.  May those who make the journey find contentment...if only for a brief moment.
Benzman a very fIne and correct tale that mirrors our process.

Many people here seem to think swap x and you get nirvanah  that is not what usually happens.

Sometimes swapping one component gets you closer to where you want to be but  then necessitates making further changes before your system makes magic.

We feel that a properly setup pair of Personas are a bargain for what you get we replaced a $70k pair of Polymer Research MKX s loudspeakers with a set of $35k Personas and never Looked back. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
All about synergy. I have had the Persona 5F's for about 7 weeks.
The Audience au 24SX Interconnects and speaker cables where fine with my previous Magico S3 but not a good match for the Persona's
I inserted Cerious Technologies Graphene Matrix IC's and Speaker cable and magic really happened.  The Personas do have a little bump in the upper treble but the cable swap really brought them to their full potential. Lot of space between the players front to back which I never had with the Magicos. I had good depth with the Magico,s but the players seemed on the same plane.  They are still breaking in but a pretty darn good speaker. I have family that work for Paradigm so I paid no where near list but I think a very solid speaker in their price range. The professional reviews are very positive and from whet I am told their sales have been good.
Paradigm has always been a mid grade Home Theater speaker to me, but the Persona line is a whole new ballgame.        
dave_b2,

I couldn't agree more. I've listened to many speakers/ systems over the years and I've come to realize it's about preference and system matching. At a certain level,  nothing absolutely destroys something else. 
Also Dave B Wilson moved to a warmer presentation with their current designs.

If you are getting a dry presentation then you are not matching loudspeaker with the right gear.

Oftentimes change the speakers requires changing other parts of a system.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
Dave B Beryillum is a metal. 

I think you mean you prefer a speaker with more coiorations.

Wilson moved to a soft dome because 

1. Some people found the Tioxhide Focal tweeter to be peaky.

2. Focal stopped Oem driver sales of particular drivers.
Dry all...enjoy!  The Diamonds never sounded dry or brittle.  I’ll take a good metal dome over beryllium as well.  I loved my Wilson WP 6’s inverted titanium dome...Wilson slowly deadened their speakers and used tweeter materials that sucked the life out of their sound, ala Magico.  That Overly dry presentation takes the vibrancy of the upper registers away.  Music isn’t damped...it’s the opposite.  Control can be overdone...music needs to bloom and expand and resonate. The new fad in some uber designs kill the soul of the music for me.  Some people prefer to have everything sound behaved and tamped down in a tightly constricted and precise soundstage.  That ain’t music folks, that’s boring!
Audiotroy, ... add to the list of excellent speakers that use beryllium Magicos and the Revel Ultima Salon 2 and Ultima Studio 2.  
Dave B that is a ridiculous series of comments about Beryilium. In my shop I have also have had speakerrs with Aluminium, Titantium, ESL designs, Ribbons, Soft domes, Diamond tweeters and midranges, and they have all had their series of strengths and weakness.

The issue with Beryillium is that is a highly transparent sounding material, therefore it tends to show you everything both good and bad and therefore is more critical of setup and voicing.

You can’t just judge a speaker is good or bad because of its drivers it has to do with the entire design.

We for example have the ATC speakers and they sound terrific their soft dome tweeter is wonderful the Beryilium tweeter in the Paradigms, is better especially if you crave detail and airness.

As per Beryilium being brittle and dry sounding, the Focal Sopras also use Beryilium, and no one is saying they don’t sound stunning. Beryilium is highly prized for a loudspeaker cone because the metail is inheritantly self damping and offers much less coloration then other materials. However with that being said much of what is prized in audio is musical colorations.

We have chronicaled our long setup process with our pair of 9H and they are incredibly sensitive to showing you everything, and quite frankly we would agree with you that the speakers do need some warminng up in the midrange and that is where careful system setup makes all the difference.

One tiny example of this was adding two sets of Furtech NCF Boosters to the system. We were incredulous that the NCF booster an accessory developed by Furutech to elevate a power cord would make a difference, and the sound got warmer and fuller in the midrange. We added a set of Isoacoustics to the 9H and they sounded warmer and fuller.

https://www.dagogo.com/furutech-ncf-boosters-review/


The Personas are tricky to get right but when you do they are absolutely thrilling in how realistic they can sound our demo rig is spooky at how three dimensional an image is created with singer just floating in space.

Ricred1 we will agree with you about your comment that not everyone is going to like these speakers or for that matter any particular brand of speakers.

The point we keep on trying to hammer home is that the higher the resolution a speaker it is the tricker it is to make that speaker sound good unless all the i’s are dotted and the T’s crossed, the same issues could be found with Raidho loudspeakers, B&W Diamonds and other similar types of designs.

This is one reason why some people are still drawn to soft dome tweeters, tubes and vinyl.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ




Loudspeaker design really is an art form in many aspects.  Absolute technical superiority does not necessarily equate with musicality.  It is a system unto itself, with many components both electrical and mechanical.  Materials alone have sound Signatures that ride along top of the speakers overall presentation.  Sometimes the best choices aren’t always the most expensive or the most advanced.  I’ve had many speaker designs at my home...tweeters for example, made of beryllium, silk, diamond, aluminum, titanium, ribbon (various metals) and paper !  All sound different.  Many shared great spec’s...some were unnatural sounding.  Beryllium is one of the worst sounding materials I’ve heard because it simply has an inherently dry/brittle sound Signature.  
Audiotroy,

I'm not arguing with you, because I agree it's the "system", including the room, not just the speakers. I'm just so tired of the absolute talk by some that if you don't prefer Paradigm Persona series than something must be wrong with you!  
Ricred1 we have both speakers, the Persona 9H and the Blades, they both are excellent with different personalities.

Even though the 9H has powered bass in our room the Blades still have more of a presence in the bass, which may be the room correction has cleaned up the excess slop while the passive Kef’s conventional bass therefore sounds warmer in the deep bass range as it is coupling with the room.

The Persona’s have great clarity in the high frequencies and a more holographic image, the Blades sound very big with a huge soundstage. The Blades and the Ref series captures a warmth in instrumental tone that is very captivating.

I was just in The San Francisco area as a poster on these forums and I forged a deal to setup his system if he flew me to town. He has Kef Reference 5 and was complaining that the speakers didn’t sound great in his room.

Step one repositoned the speakers much better image focus and greater attack and slightly tighter bass

Step Two: added an Inuous Zenith server to replace a CEC CD spinner.

Step Three: Changed Dac’s from Auralic Vega to Aqua Hifi Lascala MK 2 big difference in tonality, better image, and more realistic image size, timbre started to sound like real instruments.

Step Four: added a high end USB and Ethernet between the server and the dac again greater clarity

Step Five: upgraded the system to appropriate level interconnects again huge improvement in image depth, width focus and oveall clarity.

Step Six: added Isoacoustic footers under speakers big improvement.

Step Seven: added proper power conditioning again improved soundstage width depth and image focus.

Step Eight: added Stein Harmonizer again big difference much more depth and much larger and more focused soundstage;

Step Nine: Enjoy!

Long story short even with older ARC gear and crappy speaker cables this system went from sounding flat and like a stereo to sounding three dimensional, with great and realistic tone it started to really come alive and portrary the sound of a live concert.

After visting three of the best audio stores in that part of the world, none of what I heard including, YG, WIlson, Paradigm sounded like what I get out of the systems in my shop.

After visting a shop in Mass, and hearing the Personas there the real problem that you guys face is really getting a good demo of many of the products that are discussed here.

I saw many instances of poor acoustics, haphazard cabling, improper speaker positioning, and sources not up to the level of the system.

There is definately a problem in how well many of these systems that I heard perform.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
dave_b2,

Just to make it clear, my comments weren’t directed at you. I was responding to the comments, "some people aren’t so insecure that they need to have a less known brand of speakers to feel good." Implying that if you don’t like what I like it must be because you’re insecure. I’ve listened to the Paradigm 7Fs several times and I just don’t think they represent some incredible value or breakthrough. Recently a friend compared the 9Hs directly to Sopra 3s and purchased the Sopra 3s.
Not insecure at all...owned plenty of 5 figure speakers.  I’m actually agreeing somewhat with you that there are more than a few remarkable speakers that in any given system could deliver as good a result for less money at the Personas price points.  They have ventured into a whole new area with the Persona lineup, where many manufacturers have existed for decades.  Over time they may evolve into something more musical.  For now, they are more of a clinical device.  Oh, IMO
You're insecure if you don't like what I like. You're insecure if you respond to negative comments about a product you prefer. I heard the 7Fs and in the context of the "system" I heard them in, they are very good. I prefer the KEF Blade IIs and several others to the 7Fs. No absolutes in audio, only preferences. I just wish we could learn to respect each others opinions.
I auditioned the range, 3f, 5f and then 9h. I brought my home setup to the dealer ...less PSAudiio DAC ... instead I brought a AQ dragonfly red for convenience.
Three aspects of the 9h kill the range. 1) the ungodly gorgeous bass with so much palpable detail, 2) the naturalness of the music where instruments and voices just sound right. This must be perfect timbre I suppose ...or the ruler flat response ...but each song was like anew. 3) i was stunned to hear nuance never before heard. Even tho I demoed an inferior DAC, I knew it very well and this was not the dragonfly I know. So was it a super friendly impedance? No back-EMF? The benefits of the active section below 500hz?

I left the demo paralyzed for weeks and unable to listen to my home system speakers ...DIY Voxativ - so no slouch. Perhaps they are too revealing (bright?) for some but I know they are the best I have ever heard.

In the end, it came down to being practical. The 9h’s are big and they are expensive. The dealer got me a killer deal up here in Canada but I just couldn’t spend that much. I’ve gone back to re-audition the lesser persona models but they are not cheap either ...and IMO don’t sound nearly as good as the 9H.


Dave_b: some people aren’t so insecure that they need to have a less known brand of speakers to feel good. There is absolutely no question that the Personas are incredible speakers that ACTUALLY beat out others at their price point and higher. That is said all the time in the audio industry, but for once paradigm made it true. The 3F and 9H in particular are literal BARGAINS at their price points. Unless you have other pretentious friends you’re trying to impress.

Try not to be so closed minded. It’s a lesson most learn some time after high school, but you seem to be trailing behind a bit.
uhmm I'm look for a, high quality monitor (for my office=small room), I was tempted by the Revel M126B but the Persona B can be better if I get it used/ex-demo. However, the size of the latter is bigger and placement in a small  room might be an issue. 
hi, does anyone want to sell their S8? i'm looking to buy a pair. I can pick up anywhere in TX. If you have it in other states, i can arrange with my truck driver friend to pick them up and pay cash.
So many other great speakers...really kinda silly to fantasize about Paradigm speakers that cost $50k
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D2girls. the 5f are fantastic loudspeakers, honestly don’t look at the measurements that Stereophile does as being any real indicator of how something can and will sound like when you do the work with the product. 

For example if you have a loudspeaker which has a slightly forward treble you need to match the speaker with warmer sounding electronics and boom you got great sound, or conversely a wamer sounding set of loduspeakers you need brighter electronics. 

Great sound is a matter of matching all of the variables, room size, room's acoustics, treatment, power conditioning, cables, source, and when you get the match correct you have magic.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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