Paradigm Persona 9h - Integrated Amp Suggestion


Just took delivery on a pair of Paradigm Persona 9h speakers.   Still looking for an integrated amp that lives up to the speakers.  Any suggestions?
mi4

Showing 14 responses by audiotroy

Greg I would highly disagree with any class D, we have tested many different Class D amplifiers from a bunch of assorted manufacturers including Hypex based, Ncore, Ice and other schemes.

As per the speakers having a Class D amplifier it is to drive subs and quite frankly Class D is perfect for this task. The fact that you can create two 700 watt amplifiers and fit them easily into the speakers is a testament to why Class D is perfect for this job, not to mention low heat and great reliability is also a plus. 

Although the speed and bass control is great, we have yet to find a Class D type of amplifier that has the midrange magic or palatability of the best Class A and A/B amplifiers. 

If you look at all the world's greatest amplifiers 99% of them are Class A or A/B including Gryphon, Vitus, Dartzeel, Solution, CH Precision, Goldmund, Technical Brain, BALABO, T+A, Chord,D'Agistino, Burmester, Thrax, Ypsillon, Audio Research, Ayre,  Conrad Johnson.  etc. 

You may be thinking that some of the newer amplifiers are Class D as they are sometimes smaller and lighter then older amplifiers. A new technique is to use a switched mode power supply rather than a giant linear power supply, the output stage in these amplifiers are still Class A or A/B. 

The Personas error on being hyper natural so if anything they need a bit of flavoring to make them sound a bit more engaging and less technically perfect.

The reason we are so high on the T+A is that they really combine the best attributes of  tubes with solid state and the Personas can handle the power and play loud so having unrestricted volume without to worry about compression is a great thing. 

By the way, I am also not saying that T+A is the only amplifier company that will sound good with the Personas, what I am saying is that the Personas are world class speakers and deserve the best, T+A is among the best sounding and best built products currently on the market. and as I have shown in the reviews I linked to they challenge the most expensive products yet cost 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the very best brands. 

We also sell quite a number of other amplifiers as well, so our testing as pointing out that in our opinion the combo is really fantastic, we tested Devialet, Conrad Johnson, Electrocompaniet, Coda, Aragon, Manley Labs, Nuprime, Naim, to name some of the products we have run and tested the speakers on.

Troy
Audio Doctor
877 428 2873
As per JSL, you think this is just a sales pitch, it is not. Many audiophiles make recommendations based on what they read not actual testing.

We also sell Parasound the Halo integrated is great for the money and it is not really in the right class of performance to match up with the Personas. 

We have also had the JC 2, and JC 1 combo, not up to the job either!

Chord, Electrocompaniet and many other companies products are better for a bit more money. Parasound needs to redo these older designs. 
Suffer and endure you may actually learn something!


Mi4 I understand what are you using currently and what would your budget be?

As usual the obvious questions are not being asked?

If MI4 bought the speakers from his local dealer why isn't he working with the dealer to solve this issue? Does that dealer sell a wide range of gear or not? What is being offered?

If he was our client, we would sell him a good affordable integrated amplifier and then take it back for what he paid for to facilitate his moving up to better gear later. 

Everything about Audiogon is about deals, the real deal is being satisfied with your purchase and sometimes older more expensive gear will be outperformed by newer cheaper gear.

If Mi4 would contact us, we have a great affordable idea for him that will give him great sound and fit into his price range, but hey what do I know as I spent the entire weekend in the shop listening to our 3F and 9H while setting up two turntables. 










Also maybe it isn't MI4 amplifier maybe it is his source or cables or whatever, he has. 

What gear is he using currently?

Troy
Audio Doctor
877 428 2873 
Here is another interesting point, how many people on these forums actually saw and even read the T+A review in the Absolute Sound in the first place? 

I am willing to bet you that many people never saw or even read that review are just starting to hear  about this brand. 

If it wasn't for that one review we never would have considered the new HV series, as most German gear is very expensive, which is not true with many of T+A products. 

We would welcome you to the shop to hear our reference system under non show conditions, and then judge for youself. 
Lets just say I disagree, the people who have worked with Dave who does 99% of the field work vs me who does  turntable setup on the weekends, would beg to differ with you. 

Head over to Matt's post on a reference grade digital front end, guess what he finally laid that to rest, and bought a Davinici.

Look at Musicfx bought a T+A integrated not from us and was on the merry go round and couldn't decide, between a Pass Labs piece and a Prima Luna and now loves his T+A integrated.

We gave tips to a guy who bought Personas not from us, about setup and footers.

So in one out of three cases, we gained nothing, in in one case, the guy had been to our shop and already respected our products and experience. 

Not wanting to put you down, but there are very few hobbyists that have the real world experience that a dealer does. I don't think you are in the audio business for a Living and unless you are it is doubtful that you have the same range and depth of product knowledge and experience. 

As per championing our brands, both T+A and Paradigm Personas are newer products to this market and many people still talk about the brands and products they know. 

If you look at T+A build quality, design, and technology they can easily rival the D'agastino's, Vitus, Solution and many others. 


Greg you miss my point, that post was not directed at you but for Grbu, dude.

Our mission is to focus on these brands which may offer far better sound for the money, such as T+A, Legacy, Paradigm Personas and many others.

What I find so bizarre is how so many people make recommendations based on what exactly? What they have read in a review or possibly heard at a show? In the case of the Personas, we almost passed on them when we heard them paired with okay electronics in another dealers shop.

The Forums are absolutely dealer hostile, when most dealers should be considered great sources of knowledge and experience. Also everyone is just buy used, when many times dealers have demo models that may be less expensive then new, and only a bit more expensive then buying used, and getting service and support can't be a bad thing.

For example we can play our Personas with Naim, Nuprime, Conrad Johnson, T+A, Electrcompaniet, Devialet, Synthesis, Manly Labs and other brands of quality tube and solid state designs, and they sound very different depending on what you pair them with.

Are there other brands of good equipment of course their are, we are not saying we are the only ones who can make the speakers sound great. 

What I am trying to illustrate is that is is journey with Reference grade products, we tried quite a number of really expensive electronics until we found that the T+A gear in particular married the best qualities of the Conrad Johnsons, with what the Chord electronics did, we also tried Thrax and Devialet, 

I hope that clarifies my point, and yes we would love to hear your system across the river. 


Dear yysantabarbera,

Thank you so much for getting us and understanding why we post.

Have a great time at the event please tell the T+A guys we were instrumental in getting you to check out the gear.

And afterwards let me know your thoughts on the products.

I have no idea on what they are going to use for their setup in terms of cables, power conditioning and sources and of course speakers, nor do I have any idea of how that dealers room sounds so I can't know if you will be blown away or not I am really curious to what you will think. 

Thanks again,

Sincerely, the Audio Doctor boys, Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor
877 428 2873

and if you are ever in our neck of the woods I would love to be able to meet you and demonstrate our T+A setups with the Personas, Enklein Cables along with Audio Magic power conditioning.

We have one if the new Anthem STR integrated on order so I will let you know how that amp sounds vs all are other integraed amplifiers.

We are very found of the Unison Research Line, we had the older Unico 50 which was a tube hybid design that bested every other integrated amplifier we compared it to including Luxman and Hegel.

I have no idea how any of these guys will sound on a pair of 9H we have the 3F in our second sound room which contains the integrated amps.
The thing which you have identified is the specious reasoning that many members think when you have a flagship speaker with self amplified bass.

Just because you take the bass drive from the speaker doesn't mean that the midrange and tweeter drivers are any less forgiving.

I remember demos done at CES's past where really expensive electronics were driving cheapie speakers and everyone was amazed at the results.

I find it usually not the case when expensive speakers are driven by cheapie electronics. these are sins of ommision vs commision.

A cheapie speaker may have colorations from cabinet ringing and cheapie wiring and crossover components so the speakers are not transparent, but in their range may sound great, and when driven by great electronics you are hearing everything possible out of the speakers.

Not so when you reverse the equation, cheapie electonics don't have the power supply stiffness to start and stop the speakers, even in the midrange/midbass, and their lack of clarity and congestion cause the system to sound medocre.

So the equation we like to recommend to our clients is the electronics should cost as much to twice the price of the speakers on avergage. We have found certain less expensive pairings that work well.

In the case of our store, the T+A stuff just blows away all the less expensive stuff not even close. We demoed the $11k 2500r integrated and it was still pretty magical not quite in the same class as the big HV stuff, but you could hear the family resemblance.

I would still take that $11k integrated vs many of the other separates we sell. So in MI4 case he has a lot of demoing to do.

Troy
Audio Doctor


Could it be that Ayre watts are not Ayre watts?

A flagship product from any company should always sound dramatically better than their lower end line, and in your case  you were comparing an intergrated amplifier to the company's flagship monoblocks.

I find this no surprise as any company whose flagship product didn't sound better then their lower end more affordable products would be in serious trouble.

I do agree with one of the other posters that for $7,500.00 the OP should be able to find some really good affordable separates, we have some demo CJ and Bat products that would would clear out as they are not current and I am sure there are other dealers with similar deals.

As per why you were getting break up on the sysem with the integrated I do find that a big puzzling as the speaker is efficient, perhaps it was an impedance issue with the amp, cables and speakers, most integrated amplifiers power supplies are not anywhere as stiff as what is in a much larger stereo or mono chassis. 

As per the Ayre stuff it is very good gear I find it a bit dry sounding and personally I would think it would be a little too cold on the Personas, 
what was the rest of the setup you demoed with? Cabling, source and power conditioning? 

Troy
Audio Doctor


Hi Guys, I am going to sound like a broken record, in what I am going to recommend, we have a lot of experience in this area.

We have tested many of the top brands of integrated amplifiers including the Luxman, Hegel, Coda, Devialet, Norma, Naim and many others.

To date we have one found one brand of electronics that is really amazing, one that combines incredible engineering, build quality and a sound that is to die for, the smoothness and naturalness of tubes with unlimited dynamics and bass control of the best solid state, from T+A. of Germany.

T+A has two integrated amplifiers one in the R series which is 140 watts of high current design at $11k and the Reference HV series which has two amplifiers the slightly older original PA 3000, and the newer PA 3100 which has a few upgrades.

The T+A HV series PA 3000 integrated was compared to $120,000.00 worth of CH Precision separate components and was found by Allan Taffel to sound nearly identical! 

This was the very reason we sought out this product, if a $19-21k integrated amplifier can rival $120k worth of Swiss electronics, that would be something to shout about wouldn't it? 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ta-pa-3000-hv-and-mp-3000-hv/

  
"How close is the sound? Let me start with the PA3000 HV. At $19,000, this 300-watt integrated amp costs about 15 percent of my reference CH Precision C1/2xA1 combo. Yet when I switch between them the most striking thing I hear is their utter similarity.  " 

" The biggest difference between the T+A and the CH Precision is at the very top end, where the reference is more refined, though not any more extended. Bear in mind that even this difference, though audible as a touch of roughness, still falls into the subtle category. As evidence, consider that while trying my darndest to ferret out differences like this one, I frequently put down my pen and succumbed to the music. I listened to entire sides of even the most familiar albums. That’s an indication of how little these scant distinctions matter, and how miraculously close the PA3000’s sound and capacity to captivate come to the higher-buck Swiss Sound stalwarts "

They are coming on strong with raves on their products DAC 8 $4k dac compared to $20k dacs, and technologies and usually you will find that their gear competes with much, much, more expensive gear.

Here is the latest review on the new PA 3100

http://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/ta-elektroakustik-3100-hv-pdp-3000-hv-sacdcd-p...


We ran our 9H with a T+A HV amplifier and Preamplifier at the last New York Audio show and the sound was spectacular!

We would urge you to find away to hear this brand T+A's reference electronics can compete with the best from D'Agaistion, Vitus, Dartzheel, MBL, Burmester, and others whose comparable rigs cost $35-45k or more.

This  stuff is really in the uber class yet costs considerably less.

Flavor is neutral with a bit of warmth in the midrange, tight full bass, a huge sound stage, totally quiet, incredible build quality and super sexy looking.

If anyone of you wants to hear this combo with the Paradigm or Kef Blades we are on the East Coast.

Troy
Audio Doctor
877 428 2873