I am making changes to my 5.1.4 system. I use it for home theater and listening to music. I have a Paradigm SW 1000 Prestige sub. It was suggested to me that if I am upgrading my system I should have two subs. I listened to two JL Fathom f112v2 subs. The sound was great. They would cost probably $9000. As I already have the Paradigm SW1000 sub, I am thinking of just adding another one for $3000 and saving $6000 that I could use for better electronics such as a Lumin T2 streamer. Would two Paradigm 12 inch subs be a major drop-off in sound quality compared to the JL's. Thanks
Just buy the Paradigm. Sub integration is far more important then the sub itself. I would use the “saved” money for a highpass crossover. It will do more for you than any sub or system upgrade. The JL C-R1 is a good option and Bryston 10b-sub is another.
I have two JL112E subs and BOTH have broken TWICE! The first time the crossovers (they have a true highpass crossover) died in both and we’re replaced under warranty. The second time BOTH volume pots failed. They were rebuilt under JL’s rebuild program and cost me $350 plus’s $130 shipping per sub…they are 6 years old or brand new now depending on how you look at it.
I just noticed you are using a home theater receiver/processor. You can just do this function inside your processor. If you ever go to a two channel preamp/amp you will need an external crossover to do the same thing. A highpass crossover will let you cut the lows out of your mains and just send them to the sub. You can then use a higher crossover on the subs because the sound will not overlap. I personally use 60hz but it will very from 40-80 depending on speaker. I find the average sized floor stander crosses over well at 60hz. This will not only improve the bass but take a lot of the vibration out of your speakers which will clean up their sound. It will also take stress off your main amp and let it do it’s thing. Really it is a full system upgrade and I am always amazed more people don’t use them.
For me it's JL all the way, sounds better and goes deeper. Also look at the resale value of Paradigm, not good. You can do your own reduction of the low frequencies from your main speakers if you want. You will feel the JL's!
@fiesta75 That's what I was told in a showroom, that the JL's go way deeper than the Paradigm. The problem for me is I can only spend so much. My Paradigm cost $3000 plus tax, I put it up for sale on Craigs List and no bites. The JL's cost at least $9000. I know what you mean about feeling the JL's
I have the JL 110, my room being too small for the 112's, they sound amazing compare to my old Velodynes. I highly recommend them. But Paradigm makes a decent speaker, so if it's a choice between going with the JL's for 9K, or another Paradigm and a nice upgraded streamer, I'd personally go with the latter. You'll still get a big improvement with two subs, and you'll enjoy two improvements for a long time to come. And when you get the itch to upgrade again, there'll still be JL's new and used around. Hope this helps a bit.
The E112s ($2500 each) sounds just as good as the Fathom 12s and look much nicer with the grills off imo. the driver design is a lot newer. But and it is a big but they don’t have the built in room correction. You do gain a built in highpass crossover the fathom line lacks though. If you have a problematic room this might matter to you. I have a large dedicated room with flexible placement so it is less of an issue for me.
@deadhead1000, From one dead head to another, thanks for the post. I hate to sell my Paradigm and lose a lot of money on it. It would be easier to just buy a second one. I need to find out more about the JL E112's as I can afford two of those. If I did that I would like to keep my Paradigm as a third sub if possible although I doubt if my wife would want 3 subs in our room
You should consider some used JL's. E110's would probably be enough, but the F112's can be had for less than $2k each. Even F113's for less than $5k a pair. E112's for less than $3k a pair. Happy hunting...
The Fathom f112 has automatic room correction (D.A.R.O.) and comes with its own calibrated mic. A nice feature if you setting up your own system, especially if you are a novice with subs, but you mentioned that your dealer will be doing the set-up so you will be paying for something you will not be using.
The Paradigm has ARC (Anthem Room Correction) but I don't know if that is operational right out of the box or if you need to buy an accessory to make it work, but again if the dealer is doing the set-up, they should be able to supply the necessary tools for optimal operation.
Sound quality should not be an issue, with proper set-up, either one should sound good. The Fathom cycles 3 Hz lower than the Paradigm per their respective specs. In reality that is just going to give you a little more room shake. Is that room shake worth 6 grand? That is your call.
As it has already been mentioned, the most important part for obtaining the best sound quality will be the crossover, which you already have in your receiver/processor, make sure the dealer uses it in their set-up.
@audiorusty thanks for your comment. I should have stated from the beginning that my main concern is music. I love my home theater set up now with 5.1.4 with the Paradigm sub. I love to watch Atmos movies for the Atmos effects. Right now I am in the middle of Tomorrow War, I'm not watching for the story, I am watching to enjoy my Atmos system. I am very satisfied, not looking for better, If it is improved with new equipment it will be a bonus. What I am really interested is great sounding music. My system sounds ok as is for music but I want to make it not just sound better but to make me feel better while listening. I have heard systems in different showrooms that do this for me. I am probably going to replace my Node 2i with a Lumin T2, add an amp for my front three speakers and make some other changes. I know spending a lot on two subs would be great for Home Theater but I am thinking that for listening to Qobuz I don't need to overspend. I'm sure I made a mistake spending $3000 on the Paradigm SW 1000 sub, but I think spending another $3000 for a second is a better option for me than spending so much on JL. I need to talk to my dealer about it
That’s what I was told in a showroom, that the JL’s go way deeper than the Paradigm.
It shouldn’t be hard to find specs or measurements online to see if that’s true.
JL subs are costly and solid physically. But still, the sound of any sub will depend on good setup. I have had two JL F112 for 14 years. Between them, they have been back to JL four times for repairs (not four times each). The last time, to JL’s credit, they looked at the history and did the repair for free. The F112s sound great in my system. They should -- I’ve spent hours positioning them and fine-tuning the DSP crossovers and PEQ (in my Anthem stereo preamp) I use to get the bass flat at the listening position.
Regarding PEQ in a sub: It can help, but it works only up to the crossover frequency, of course. The Schroeder frequency typically is one or two octaves above that, and room effects can be important for an octave more. So sub PEQ is a partial solution.
I agree with the comment by @james633 --
Sub integration is far more important then the sub itself. I would use the “saved” money for a highpass crossover. It will do more for you than any sub or system upgrade. The JL C-R1 is a good option and Bryston 10b-sub is another.
thanks for the response. I have decided to buy another Paradigm SW1000. Too many comments about the reliability of the JL's has convinced me. I probably don't need to spend $3000 on a second sub but I would worry that mixing subs would not be as good as two the same
Good call to stick with what you have. You will be happy with that. Each time my JL E112s broke they changed out all of the electronics. This last time they change everything (including the driver) but the box. I basically had 4 subs fail. My current two have been going strong for about two months…. Fingers crossed.
Paradigm SW1000's, JL Audio F 112's? One "sounded far better," where? Your room or mine? That Paradigm margin is quite attractive, eh?
After first hand experience with the F series and Paradigm, I wouldn't choose either. Not for their lack of quality performance but for their stunningly limited low frequency processing design.
I'd suggest auditioning a dealers JLAudio F series at home with your current sub. They both have XLR in/out. Check first but I believe you could use either's processing to run both. and make an informed processing decision yourself. Their subwoofers, they don't need to match.
In the end JL's CR-1 crossover may be your best investment.
@james633 Does JL use silicone calking over their boards?
Yes it does not make sense at all to take a big loss on my Paradigm sub. I have no doubt I could have bought something better for less money but at the time I thought it was best to match the sub to my speakers. I will buy a second one
@m-db Thanks for your post. If possible can you explain to me why the JL CR-1Crossover is critical. It costs $3000 which is a lot for my budget. I was told my Anthem 1120 has a crossover built in. If the JL Crossover is that important to my system I would consider. My system is home theater, 5.1.4 but I am looking to change it to 7.2.2. I am definitely adding a second sub. I love watching Atmos movies with my system. I am really looking to upgrade the sound of listening to music. I stream Qobuz, I am thinking of replacing my Bluesound Node 2i with the Lumin T2 which would be a huge expense. It's possible to buy the JL Crossover and not spend the money on the Lumin T2. I also stream via the Conrtol4 app with my Anthem 1120 and I think it works better than my Bluesound. Thanks
If possible can you explain to me why the JL CR-1Crossover is critical. It costs $3000 which is a lot for my budget.
The CR-1 crossover cost is based upon the audiophile grade components used in its construction. I'm not a home theatre guy but I don't think that an external crossover will work with your Anthem. Ideally you would connect your preamp outputs to the crossover inputs and the crossover outputs to your sub amps and main speaker amps inputs. I don't think this connection is possible with the Anthem. You will be fine using the crossover built into your Anthem.
Several owners of JL audio that ive known had break down issues...Rel is the way to go.In theater Rel is as good with the newer HT line ,in 2 channel Rel blows JL away hands down.Resell id say they both are excellent .
@audiorusty thanks for that info on the crossover. I need to find out if I can do it with my 1120 Anthem. I really appreciate your comment. I decided to go with a second Paradigm SW1000. I just don't want to lose $1000 on mine to buy more costly JL's
Sorry. In hindsight (actually more a senior moment) I read your concerns as more musical rather than for home theater. My personal taste for HT low frequency reinforcement are quite different than for music. Crawl tested location of a single sub is sufficient for my HT taste.
In our short time comparing a JL Audio F 113 with D.R.O. it’s performance did improve using the early Velodyne Room Optimization and was every bit as potent as the larger DD-18 easily translating to HT use.
If your confident of your Anthem processing JL Audio’s E Series is a more economical choice in the JL line that will preform well beyond its size. I believe you can drive the E110/112 using low level RCA, post EQ from your Paradigm controlling both units.
After more than twelve years I too am considering upgrading my digital front end: 2011 Mac Mini WiFi -> Squeezebox COAX -> Metrum NOS Mini DAC. Considering a new Mac Mini, Benchmark 3B or the Innuos Zen Mini MkIII? Totally baffled...
m-db good luck with your upgrades. I decided on a second Paradigm sub, along with a Anthem 325 amp to go with my 1120 receiver, I am going to replace my ceiling speakers and add two more for a 7.2.2 system. I am now researching music streamers, I have a Bluesound node2i that I want to replace with something better. I am looking into a crossover for my subs as well
Someone made a comment on Paradigm speakers have poor resale value. In the US that may be true. Paradigm isn’t a big name in the US. In Canada however, where Paradigm is made, resale is better than most. As they become more well known in the states, their resale value should increase. I believe the Persona line of Paradigm speakers are pure quality, beautiful and great sound. Listen to them before you decide.
I already have Paradigm 85F's, 55C and 2 Surround 3 speakers. I am planning on selling the Surround 3's and buying Paradigm ceiling speakers to replace my Atmos and surround speakers. I also have a Paradigm sub
JL makes quite possibly the least reliable sub woofers on the planet. I used to love them until I realized how unreliable they are and watched their retail price climb over the years with zero advancements. They seem to just not care about their home audio division at all.
Paradigm on the other hand makes some of the most reliable subs, with the best room correction available on any sub. Comparing ARC Genesis to the DARO on a Fathom is insulting.
Go Paradigm and don't look back.
@m-db The paradigm margin is LESS than the JL Audio. I have seen the price books. Don't be ignorant.
Sorry this is not one of the 2 brands that you mentioned but I have been very happy with my GSG Devastator. It has a 21” lavoce driver in a semi horn loaded box. It’s big but we use it near field as a coffee table. There are 2 versions. The home theatre tuning and the music tuned one. I bought the music tuned one and it’s very effective down to 27hz. The HT version goes lower. It’s a passive sub and the diy flat pack and driver will run around 1500 with shipping. Then you get to build it and find an amplifier. I’m using a behringer DSP amp and am happy with its performance for under 2k all in. It will pressure up my 20x20 room more than I can use. It can get almost uncomfortable. I used an SVS PB16 ultra prior to it and it was a huge huge difference.
I might be missing the idea of what you are trying to accomplish but, you seem to be confused about crossovers. You do not need a crossover for your subs. The crossover I believe you think you might need is already built into your receiver. The next paragraph is copied from page 19 of the Anthem 1120 users manual.
3.2 BASS MANAGEMENT
In this menu, information about your speakers is used so that bass does not become distorted. If using Anthem Room Correction, these items will be set during measurement, so you may skip this menu.
If your subwoofer has a crossover, it should be bypassed – set its frequency control to the highest frequency.
The bass manager is a crossover that divides audio in two frequency bands suitable for subwoofer/satellite speaker systems. The result is a lower bass level for satellite speakers, and no midrange/treble going to the subwoofer.
@m-db The paradigm margin is LESS than the JL Audio. I have seen the price books. Don’t be ignorant.
contuzzi I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. [ E Series is a more economical choice in the JL line ] In other words, the E series is less expensive than the F series that the original poster was considering.
I don’t have a clue what their retail margins are. Exactly, how much are they?
"the best room correction available on any sub."
Cool! What are all the Room Correction parameters and can they all be remotely controlled? How many EQ memory presets are there?