Great review there ol' chap. Now you've got me interested in the Furutech but what stops me from completely going for it is I'm in that caveat you stated in regards to the warm nature of gear like my Marantz and how what you're experiencing won't necessarily be what I would experience.
I do know that the PADIS is better than the HiFi Tuning Silver Star fuses, at least to my ears, and I'm really impressed with the even handed nature in the results. I feel I could always use a bit more treble energy but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's dry. On some recordings the treble is spot on, even effervescent, so it's probably due to quality of the recording.
Like you said, if one is on the fence, at least try the PADIS. Who knows where it can lead to? 🤔
All the best,
@nonoise - I have been listening to the PADIS fuse in a transport situation. In addition to the preamp listening, I can say that the PADIS fuse will definitely roll-off high frequency detail when compared to the Furutech fuse. It also does not have the tonal purity of the Furutech fuse. It definitely warms things up. I am going to take back my statement that you "might not hear the difference in a warm system". I think every little bit helps and the Furutech could still definitely improve things in your Marantz.
@auxinput, This is a coincidence. I just got through listening to 3 CDs that I'm very familiar with. Since I leave everything on 24/7, there's always juice going through the fuses so it aids in break in. It's been awhile since I've had the PADIS fuses in and since I've listened to anything (for about a week).
The break in has reached it's greater impact this day. I'm kind of drawn to the analogy that @gbmcleod referred to in another thread about finding continuity, and how elusive it can be, but when you hear it, you know it's right, and that's close to how I'd describe what I'm hearing now.
These CDs that I'm very familiar with now sound different (as in new) as the detail, breadth of sound that emanates out of instruments, added rhythm and pacing, and increase in the realism of human voices is a bit mystifying, leaving me to wonder just how compromised my system has been all this time. Kind of the opposite of what you're describing with the PADIS.
The highs seem good enough so I'm now wondering if maybe I didn't describe what my system sounded like accurately the first time around. I don't doubt what you hear and appreciate the input. It's just a matter of finances right now but I'll keep it in mind should and when I get the itch.
All the best,
Beating that dead horse again, Kosst?
You need a new hobby. One where you can relax and not get so worked up. Being wrapped too tightly can lead to frays and splits in the wraps and then, when they burst, the fun is over.
It's been shown that our hearing is definitely done in a non linear fashion and that measurement are done in a linear fashion. One can only approximate the other. How hard is that to wrap your head around?
I know it's easier to just ignore it like you've never heard it or bothered to read up on but really, it's getting really old.
All the best,
I will always throw this question out so that if somebody comes across this silliness they will see the rational question and also see that it consistently goes unanswered. So far nobody has posited a rational explanation and I contended that if something as insignificant as a fuse has discernable effects, the power supply simply isn't doing its job. It's time to toss the amp or have the problem fixed.
Really!!! I mean really!!! between fuses?
Maybe it’s a good idea to take a 6mts Basic Electronics course, that should be enough, to make most of you realise the snake oil that’s trying to be sold here.
Nobody is concerned that something so trivial should have no consequence to the sound? If something as trivial as a fuse had the slightest impact on my F5 I'm looking for something very wrong with my power supply. I'm kind of curious what kind of gear is so poorly designed and built. You folks are attributing characteristics to a fuse that rival significant and highly measurable changes I've made to my amp like bias and distortion balance. Those are major changes that directly effect the gain devices! You folks might be hearing something that a fuse is doing, but it's only because something else is completely failing to do it's job correctly.
so, kosst_amojan, have you actually tried out a Furutech or BLACK fuse in your F5 amp?
Question - if a fuse has no impact on a piece of equipment that should be designed well, how come I can hear significant differences between fuses in my $12,000 retail Krell home theater processor, fully linear power supplies, all discrete Class A circuits, etc. etc.? Are you saying that this Krell processor is so badly designed that a fuse makes a big difference?
I have no doubt that bias adjustments and distortion balance definitely has a big impact on amplifier results. However, every piece in the chain has an impact on the end result sound. Everything in the signal chain matters.
No, I haven't tried them, and I won't even consider it until somebody shows me a measurement. There are things I could put that money towards that would make clear and obvious differences like installing a second power supply, building discreet filtered rectifiers, or shielding that toroidal. All those things bring improvements I can hear and measure. I'm almost certain the F5 would measure better than anything you mentioned. That's actually the biggest complaint people have with the thing.
But yeah, I would be looking at it a little weird if a fuse made any difference. A decent linear supply should have banks of filter resistors that should mitigate any influence a fuse on the other side of the transformer might have. I can go flipping the power switch back and forth, back forth, and the sound of the amp doesn't even burp. If I can't hear rapidly physically interrupting the power going into it, why would I believe a fuse makes a difference?
Everything I'm listening to I've either worked on or build with the exception of a pair of RCA cables and the Focals. I'm very happy to dig into something and see if there's some truth to what people say. That's why I built my speaker cables, my amp, and why I keep tweaking it. I'm more than happy to let anybody listen to or measure what I'm making too. I simply have an impossible time believing a fuse makes the kinds of differences I'd associate with speaker cables.
Haven't audiophile fuses been around since the early 2000s? That's almost two decades worth of thousands of listeners who've heard a difference and you need a measurement that hasn't been invented yet?
This isn't new territory. There's something else going on here of a latent nature that's manifesting itself with this fuse argument.
All the best,
That's fine and I respect your belief that fuses do not make a difference. However, we have nothing to prove to anyone because we know for a fact that fuses do make a difference. If you do not want to expend the money to test fuses on your own, that's fine, but describing this subject as "silliness" is just unethical and scientifically incorrect. As I have said before, none of us are interested in making any measurements and I'm sure none of us are interested in investing in the thousands of dollars in lab equipment required to measure the tiny difference in fuses in effort to prove to you that this makes a difference. (such as DC resistance, capacitance, electrical resonance, slew rate, etc.). It's just much easier to test the fuses directly in equipment and make our own decisions based on sound, metallurgy, etc.
I have seen others post this exact sheet for you, but I will post it again to show some actual measurements on fuses:
This shows that Isoclean has a higher DC resistance than the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses. This specific measurement could help explain why the Isoclean sounds warmer and the Hi-Fi Tuning sounds fast/detailed and at times lean. However, that's not the entire story as there are other factors to consider, such as Isoclean is gold-plated versus Hi-Fi Tuning which is silver/gold. There are many other attributes to fuses that apply such as metallurgy, plating material, fuse filler, graphene application, cryogenic treatment, etc.
If you were a true scientist, the correct response would be "I haven't proved that this makes a difference". The response that "this is silly because it doesn't make a difference" is more of a belief based on blind faith. If you haven't tested and listened to different fuses, then you really don't have any stance to argue against fuses.
One more thing. Trying to compare fuses such as Little Fuse vs Buss Fuse versus some other $5 fuse is not a good example of testing here because all of these fuses will perform very similar and will have substantially lower results than something like an Isoclean or Futurech..
As an addendum, there are many items that I suspect are "snake oil". These are things like speaker cable risers, Synergistic sound dots, Bybee elements, etc. However, I cannot say for sure that they are snake oil or not because I have never heard these elements myself. So, I will not make any brash statements against these items because of my "impossible time believing that they actually do make a difference".
Glad to see some actual measurements! Thank you!
As much as I talk about measurements, I tune my gear with nothing more than my ears and a DMM. The measurement thing is very important to me because they're hard, incontravertable numbers that I can get a feel for and make pretty accurate calculations as to what I want to do next. In all reality though, not even the input JFETs on my F5 are matched anywhere near the values those fuses tease out. As long as the feedback balance is within .05R between channels, the distortion character is identical. I honestly couldn't tell you what the actual distortion is. I know I've had it down into the low thousandths because it takes on a cooler and extremely detailed sound you recognize immediately. At first I applied some inverted second order. Positive and negative polarity of the exact same distortion and level are two totally different animals. Anyways... That's how I tune an F5 or Burning Amp: by ear. Can you understand why I've got an extremely hard time believing those kinds of low numbers in a fuse, so far divorced from the actual signal, can make and difference? In all reality, the capacitance of the power supply PCB is a bigger factor. Some folks are obsessed with laying out amp boards with the absolute shortest traces and paths possible, but in the end it makes no real difference. I listen to the Burning Amp fest speakers. Nobody there is obsessing about this kind of stuff. It's just a whole different world when you're building your own stuff.
While it’s true the measured differences are small, the differences are consistent. The resistance is consistently lower for audiophile fuses than for stock fuses; the resistance is consistently lower according to which end of the wire came out of the die first; cryo’d fuses have less resisitance than their non cryo’d counterparts. What the naysayers oft overlook is this: the measured results are consistent with listening results - the best sounding direction is the one with the lower resistance.
No. There is ZERO correlation between those measurements and what’s being claimed. You could install those values directly into the signal path and it would make no difference. Those values are orders of magnitude smaller than the deviations between so many other parts that should be ideally paired. I can promise you that nobody is pairing parallel devices to values that close, if they’re even measured at all. I’m not sure what people think when it comes to how their gear is built, but NOBODY designing gear even designs to the kinds of numbers we’re talking about here, and nobody, not even the most perfectionist DIY’er, is building to that kind of standard. Do you have any idea how many resistors and transistors you’d have to buy and test to find parts that match to those kinds of numbers? I use 5% source resistors on my outputs and you can’t tell a difference. I just can’t see how this makes a difference when I know for a fact there are much more significant variables at work.
Geoffkait 10-17-2017In some past fuse-related threads I provided the following summary of the direction-related resistance measurements reported in the HiFi-Tuning paper:
The differences in resistance for the HFT fuses in the two directions ranged from 0.000002 ohms to 0.000120 ohms. The differences in resistance for the competitive fuses were a bit greater in some cases, with the worst cases generally being the standard fuses, for which there was one isolated case having a measured difference of 0.005200 ohms.I would feel safe in assuming that there are not many audiophiles who possess equipment capable of measuring such miniscule differences in resistance. For example, my $375 Fluke multimeter cannot come remotely close to doing so, even in the one isolated case where the difference was much larger than for all of the other measurements.
Reply to Mitch’s question, something to the effect, "where can I find the correlation of measurements to listening test?"
From the conclusions portion of the HiFi Tuning data sheets,
"The measurements done so far showed some measurable differences between fuse,
but didn ́t explain completely the sonic differences between fuses. One way to look at these phenomenon’s is, that music, containing many pulses can be limited by the electronics being in the reproduction chain. Fuses with better contact material (e.g. no corrosion) and overall better make will limit these pulses less."
If I may be so bold, what that first sentence intends to mean is measured results DO - at least partially - explain the listening results. In terms of not only directionality but fuse body material and fuse conductor material, including differences produced by Cryo treatment. In other words, the directionality of the fuses that was measured agrees with the listening tests. I suggest that the correct way to view the measurements is that they are indicative that the fuses are *non symmetrical*. No one is saying that the differences in resistance are the complete answer. But they are *evidence* that something is going on. Obviously if fuses were completely *symmetrical* the resistance would measure exactly the same both ways, no? 😳
Wrong. They "conclusions" drawn were pure speculation. The kinds of values their measurements demonstrated could easily be outweighed by a few solder joints and the solder used. These kinds of values would be overwhelmed by the ambient air temperature around a small signal transistor deviating by 2°C.
Costco, If the measured differences were arbitrary and subject to a number of variables, as you say, the results would be random. But as I got through explaining, the results are not (rpt not) random. They’re consistent with fuse non symmetry, I.e., directionality. Ditto fuse body material, Cryo, etc. Follow? Your theory is as silly as the fuse holder explanation.
As the poster of the measurement (which has been posted many times before), I did say that the "measurements could explain why", but I also said that the measurements was not the entire story.
Counter-argument. So, the fuse non-believers, can you provide me measurements as proof as to why the Vishay Naked Foil resistors sound so good? I mean, it's just a resistor that measures resistance, right? We all know that it is well made, just like our upgraded fuses are well made. But upgrading a tiny resistor doesn't make any difference to the sound quality. Give me absolute measurable proof that it makes a difference.
Not sure why so many disbelievers are so hung up on fighting this fuse argument. :)
Theory? I haven't thrown any theory out there at all. I said nothing about the deviations in what was measured on the fuses. Go read it again. I'm saying that the values the found are completely insignificant. I'm saying you end up with more significant changes in the resistors and transistors if the ambient temperature changes 2°C. I'm saying there are a whole heap of things that fluctuate WAY more than .0005 ohm. I'm saying NOBODY is designing amps to those kinds of tolerances. I'm saying any electronic device sensitive to deviations on that scale is VERY poorly designed. Nobody in the world is designing or building gear where values that small make a difference. You know that Pass, Boulder, ML, and Krell don't even bother matching their parallel devices? They just degenerate them and their degeneration resisters are nowhere inside the tolerances of these numbers.
With all due respect, I reread the article and could not find any reference to correlating listener preferences and fuse resistance or direction. There are several mentions of "the sonic differences between fuses" but the paper doesn't discuss who is making the distinction, what these sonic differences are, and how "better sound" is judged. There are correlations with the HFT fuses related to lower resistance and higher conductivity but not "better sounding." In their concluding "Tips for optimizing High End Audio gear" there is no discussion of orienting the fuse direction for either optimal sound or lower resistance. Please let me know if I am missing part of the article or study.
I simply do not believe that the minute differences in resistance between one-inch pieces of wire (i.e., different fuses), much less the differences in resistance between the orientation directions of the same one-inch piece of wire (i.e., the same fuse turned-around), could be audible in even upper-end home stereo systems, given all the many other factors that influence how the system will sound. My skepticism is further fueled when I read about how the SR20 fuse "totally changed" somebody's system but then how the SR Red further improved it with results that "are not subtle" but later that the SR Black "blows the doors off" anything that has come before...then along comes the SR Blue, etc., etc., etc. An amplifier designer once told me, "if I was starting over I would go into cables." Lots of money has been made on what amounts to wire, geometry, and connectors.
I never said that the differences in resistance account for the differences in sound. What we have here, folks, is an excellent example of a Strawman argument. Even HiFI Tuning states that the small differences in resistance don’t account for the sonic differences, as I just quoted from their data sheets. The measured differences are, however, indicative of the directionality of fuses. All fuses. You know, because of the correlation of the differences to direction. Hel-loo!
And what you fail to do is draw any plausible connection between what we know and the observed phenomenon. People claim they hear things. Fine. WHY??? The attributes people describe are roughly in par with the characteristics of distortion. Cool. We can measure that. Why hasn’t anybody measured that? Can it be measured? I suspect not. Now if people want to buy fuses because they manipulate your brain into liking what you’re hearing, that’s kinda crazy to me, but I otherwise don’t care. I’ve got a bunch of lights and lasers I use while listening because being visually distracted from the space enhances the listening experience. I guess you could say shining lights and lasers on my gear makes it sound better. The truth is that it’s all in my head though. That seems the most rational explanation for this question about fuses.
@geoffkait And what you fail to do is draw any plausible connection between what we know and the observed phenomenon.
>>>>I have drawn rain the connection to what we know and what we hear many times. You have failed to read it or have dismissed it or whatever.
People claim they hear things. Fine. WHY??? The attributes people describe are roughly in par with the characteristics of distortion. Cool. We can measure that. Why hasn’t anybody measured that?
>>>>>>How owe should I know?
Can it be measured? I suspect not.
>>>>>>Why assume anything? You’re just be argumentative.
Now if people want to buy fuses because they manipulate your brain into liking what you’re hearing, that’s kinda crazy to me, but I otherwise don’t care.
>>>>>Uh, I’m pretty sure it’s because The aftermarket fuses improve the sound. Id say you’ve managed to psych yourself out. Otherwise you don't care? Is that why you've wound yourself up into a froth?
. I’ve got a bunch of lights and lasers I use while listening because being visually distracted from the space enhances the listening experience. I guess you could say shining lights and lasers on my gear makes it sound better. The truth is that it’s all in my head though. That seems the most rational explanation for this question about fuses.
>>>>>As I said, it appears you’ve psyched yourself out. Good luck with all that.
How in the hell did mankind ever progress before the advent of the multimeter? Absolute chaos must have reigned supreme in the 1920s until Zavier came to the rescue with his invention.
Before that, all it took was for someone to demonstrate that it works. All anyone had to do was look at it, or listen to it, or taste or feel it to make sure. Once that was established, rule of thumb came into play along with posits, conventional wisdom, more and folkway, until it could be quantified by math, science, theory, or that damn multimeter.
There's a whole cottage industry of trained and trusted ears in Japan where all they do is build by ears. Everything from choice of wire and down to it's direction is tried until it sounds right. But they must be wrong, right? Their systems are the envy of anyone who's heard them.
It's just another canard to insist that everything can and must be measured or it simply can't be. I'm not talking about accepting things on blind faith, but by my own ears, and thousands of other ears which were and still are, the foundation of measurement and still the final arbiter.
If all one does is follow measurements, then why double check and do the final tuning by ear? The naysayers should be perfectly content with their color by numbers build techniques. Stay within the lines and all will be fine. No need to venture out and try something new lest what you try violates your written in stone bible of electrical standards because, blind faith.
I prefer to question authority and conventional wisdom because it's been proven to be so wrong in so many instances. Not having UL or Guiness around, I trust my own ears and soldier on. For the life of me, I can't fathom why anyone refuses to simply try it for themselves and insists that they hold all the knowledge and answers because it's written down somewhere by someone who, themselves, haven't tried it.
Baffling, to say the least.
All the best,
If all one does is follow measurements, then why double check and do the final tuning by ear?
Every piece of equipment you have is designed with "measurements" and the laws of electronics, if it's not it's JUNK!!!
Final testing by ear is to see which of the above "measured" designs sounds better, or you do it for room acoustics adjustments.
Not that I give a darn what your thought process is, you are annoying to this forum. Anyone who makes statements without trying the product has no business addressing the subject. In the 40+ years of being an audiophile, I've tried different tweaks that either worked for the better or not. It's what being an audiophile is all about: producing the best sound from your system.
I remember reading Stereo Review magazine during the 1970s which published measurements for all their equipment reviews. The measurements did not always correlate with their actual sound. Back then there were an abundance of stores with multiple components so one could judge for themselves whether those reviews/ measurements were sound.
BTW- I have tried various fuses that I did not like so your comment, " if people want to buy fuses because they manipulate your brain into liking what you are hearing", has no merit.
I shall not allow some charlatans and scoundrels to take advantage of young naive and gullible audiophiles. I shall not allow these pseudo scientists and tweakaphiles to besmirch and sully the good names of Ohm, Watt, Faraday, and the other Icons of Science and Electricity. Finally, I shall not allow any of the Laws of Science to be broken or otherwise injured. - The Naysayer creed
Go do some learning. There was absolute chaos in the field of electronics prior to the Ohm being decided on as a specific value. Everybody had some unit they used that meant nothing except in terms of their specific application. Being able to measure an Ohm was a monumental achievement that allowed electronics to finally flourish as a science.
Ya don’t actually make ANY points at all. You don’t seem to know anything. You don’t seem to have any actual experience with what you try to talk about. You don’t even seem to know how absurd you sound to people who’ve actually built the kinds of things you talk about. I’ve repeatedly pointed out glaring discrepancies in your assertions and you retort with name calling every single time. I’m just asking for an explanation. All you ever say is "it does so that’s the proof!" That’s not proof.
@nonoiseAnd yet they used their ears when it came to making music. Not everything blew up or went awry. Standardizing the process with a meter certainly helped to further things but that entirely misses my point.
Or side steps it.
All the best,