Overshadowed by bandmates

I was listening to "Real Time" a live CD by Richard LLoyd, the "other" guitarist to Tom Verlaine in Television. It occurred to me that, while I like Verlaine's style, I ultimately prefer Lloyd's playing. I just didn't really appreciate it till he left the band and crawled out from Verlaine's shadow. This got me thinking. Until he left to start World Party, Karl Wallinger was obscured by Mike Scott while they were bandmates in The Waterboys. Now, I'll take Wallinger over Scott.

Some would say George Harrison suffered this fate, too. I think he was overshadowed by Lennon/Macca for many fans until "All Things Must Pass" and "Bangladesh". Any others come to mind?
Steve Hackett with Genesis.
Jim Capaldi with Traffic.
Also of course Lindsey Buckingham in Fleetwood Mac!
Keith Moon (RIP) over any drummer The Who employ.
Bon Scott (RIP) AC/DC over the geezer with the flat cap.
Fred Mercury (RIP) over Paul Rodgers.
Carl McCoy-Fields of the Nephilim.
Zach de la Rocha-Rage Against the Machine
Johnny Rotten- The Sex Pistols
Thankfully Zep were no more after Bonham (RIP).

Nice catch.

Nice call on George Harrison.

I'd add Richard Wright of Pink Floyd (overshadowed by Roger Waters and David Gilmour).
Kark Mnopfler- Dire Straits.
Mark Knopfler was overshadowed by his Dire Straits band mates? Hmmm...

Perhaps I'm not understanding the question asked in the original post.
He overshadows the other members' whose names I do not know,
although I do vaguely remember from the old memory cell, Pick Withers.
interesting, bizarre post. lloyd is often my favorite guitarist--listen to his shit with matthew sweet, among others. i chanced to see him live in chicago recently, and he was completely wacked out--palapably schizo--tho he's still a great guitarist. i dig his angry, ubschooled approach to the neck--he doesn't sound like every other wanker out there. he did a solo record in the early 80s--i'm thinking it was called fields of fire--which is something of a classic and worht chcking out, if only for the title song, which has an icredible solo indelibly etched in my mind.

Glad you like Lloyd's playing - didn't think this was so bizarre, though. Great players/singers/writers overlooked 'cause they're sidemen behind a frontman. Happens a lot.

F'rinstance, Gawdbless' choice could have been David Knopfler. Who knew he could write songs (okay, so they sound suspiciously like his brother's) 'til he left Dire Straits. Speaking of overlooked brothers, I'd argue that Dave Davies' playing with the Kinks was underappreciated because Ray got the ink.

Similarly, Jeff Tweedy was often overshadowed by Jay Ferrar in Uncle Tupelo. Tweedy broke out in Wilco, where Jay Bennett was (probably still is) underappreciated. Brian Henneman (sic?), was the anonymous guitar tech in Uncle Tupelo, but his band Bottle Rockets is worth checking out. Naturally, Henneman's brother penned one of that band's best tunes "Waitin' On a Train".
(I guess I could have asked about overshadowed brothers!)

The phenomenon is sufficiently common that I was wondering if people were going to list names I hadn't considered. This crowd often points out interesting stuff and I've definitely made some discoveries courtesy of responses to questions like this one. I usually start threads with the intent of picking the brains of the 'goners. Might sound like a longshot, but I've done okay.

Not that I'm a giant fan, but who would have guessed Dave Grohl would be such a pop/rock hit machine from his Nirvana days behind the drums.

Daniel Ash of Love and Rockets did surprisingly well as a writer and front man since Bauhaus split - again a surprising pop sensibility based upon his original band's work.
Richie Furay- Buffalo Springfield
Chris Hillman- Byrds
Mike Pinder- Moody Blues
Jim Capaldi- Traffic
Ian Paice- Deep Purple
Bernie Leadon- Eagles
Jorma Kaukonen- Jefferson Airplane
John Entwhistle- Who
Keith Richards and Ronnie Woods. Kieth is probably the most prolific guitar lick writer of all time but when it comes to actually playing the licks, it's Ronnie who delivers the goods.

Duanne Allman and Dickey Bettes and then Greg Allman. OK, OK, Duanne is the man and I understand that but once Duane was gone it became quite obvious that Dickey is an insanely good guitarist and then proceeded to write some of the greatest rock songs ever written.

Mick Taylor (gtr, Stones) is SO overshadowed that folks don't seem to even remember he was a key force in the Stones best period 69-74. Includes Exile on Main St, Goat Head Soup, Its only RnR and my all time fave stones album Sticky Fingers. The song Sway is all Mick T - no Keith even on that tune.
Always thought Christie McVie never had a chance with you know who, plus she was better lookin' too.
Gdoodle got it right! Ditto on Mick Taylor; superior to Richards and Wood's sloppy licks! Stones were best with Taylor.
Leon Russell when he was with Joe Cocker on the Mad Dogs and Englishmen tour. Actually he was overshadowed by the "stars" on many of the projects he worked on throughout his career.
Third on Mick Taylor. His solo on Can't You Hear Me Knockin is the best in the Stones' entire history.
Fourth on Mick Taylor! His solo on Sway isn't too bad either...

Here are some others by way of left field. Or not!-
Bernie Taupin-wrote lyrics for Elton John
Lorenz Hart-ditto for Richard Rogers
Max Roach-overshadowed by Bird, Miles and Dizzy until he led his own groups.
Ira Gershwin was overshadowed by his brother George.
Jimmy Rogers overshadowed when he played with Muddy Waters.
Great post!

Completely agree with Mick Taylor when he was a Rolling Stones. Have you noticed that in interviews KR belittles Taylor?

Dave Mason was the overshadowed bandmate in Traffic. He was their George Harrison.

In the original Fleetwood Mac Danny Kirwan never got his props.

Neal Schon and Greg Rolie had to leave Santana and start Journey.

Ron Wood played second fiddle (actually he was the bassist) to Jeff Beck and Rod Stewart in an early Jeff Beck Group.

Jack Bruce wrote most of the songs, did most of the vocals and is arguably the better musician, but Cream is now viewed as an Eric Clapton band.

Levon Helm in The Band.

Both Curt Smith and John Oates kinda' got pushed to the backseat in their respective pop dous.

Boz Scaggs in the Steve Miller Band.

Artie Garfunkle.

Florence Ballard in the Supremes.

Pete Anderson -- Dwight Y. just doesn't sound the same.

Stevie Nieve. What would Elvis Costello sound like without him?

Dan Hartman in the Edgar Winter Group w/ Rick Derringer. Hartman was pop genius.

John Paul Jones. Do you think just anybody could have played bass with Page and Bonham?

And finally, my nominee for the ultimate overshadowed bandmate -- Johnny Johnson. When they went into the studio it was the Johnny Johnson Band, when they came out it was Chuck Berry.
love Lloyd's playing as well. his solo stuff is all worth owning, and that first television lp is nothing if not killer. check out 'the skids-the absolute game' for a teen stuart adamson ripping it up long before 'big country'. both were criminally underrated.
gtta add dave davies to this mvp list as well.
John Paul Jones in Led Zeppelin. Not only was his bass playing world class, but his keyboard parts added alot of texture, and he does not get his due.

Benn Orr in the Cars. Alot of people think Rik Ocasek sang everything, but many of the hits were sung by Ben.
bob weir.

the diff b/w a good GD set and a great one is how aggressive bobby was playing. listening to the 70 & 77 shows he's really pushing phil, jerry, mickey & bill.

but so much of their best live stuff was b/c of bobby's playing
Elliot Easton in the Cars also.

How about Ricky Wilson, the original guitarist in The B52s? The guy who did all the great riffs on their first album?
Jack Dejohnette and Keith Jarrett in the Charles Lloyd band of the late sixties.
Great Post.

George Harrison and Mick Taylor, no brainers.
Jeff The Skunk Baxter. Superb work at Doobies and Steely Dan--very rarely mentioned now. Love to relisten to that groundbreaking work.
David Lindley, one of the hot shot session players of the LA Singer Songwriter period. Defined the early sound of Jackson Browne. Waddy Wachtel is a close second.
Jeff Beck, always in the shadow of Page during his early days--may be the better guitarist, based on the recent Live at Ronnie Scott's set. Does anyone make a guitar sing like him?
Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac--wrong place wrong time--deep blues at its best. Listen to the original Black Magic Woman.
James Williamson of Iggy Pop's mid period.
Dickey Betts: carried the band forward after Duane's death.
2d on Elliot Easton - the king of the unforgettable four bar guitar solo.
Singer song writer Noel Gallagher of the super group Oasis,
front man Liam seems to take all the limelight (antics and all), but Noel is the driving force behind the band, and will even take front stage and sing (voices really similar) when the temperamental brother has a strop and won't do an encore, and instead prefers to sulk in the dressing room (sometimes) when the rest of the band are on stage.
Jimmie Vaughn?
Agree with Onhwy61 regarding Jack Bruce. I feel that he was a more important contributor to the music and sound of Cream than Clapton, who was certainly not chopped liver. I also believe that his subsequent career has proven him to be the superior songwriter, singer and (gasp) axeman.

One could argue that Charlie Watts has been as important a contributor to the sound of the Stones as anyone and he has never, to my knowledge been recognized for it.

Stanley Turrentine, the great hard bop tenor saxophonist never received his due. His contributions to many 60s era Blue Note bands were absolutely key to their success. He had a huge, round sound and a gift for phrasing that made several of the classic Jimmy Smith, Kenny Burrell and Horace Silver sides so rock solid.
Agree w/ all above except Mark Knopfler + Dave Davies who I believe had plenty of recognition. Mick Taylor and George Harrison are probably most notable since from super groups.

I'd add Carlos Alomar + Mick Ronson guitar work w/ D. Bowie, Tim Renwick guitar w/ Al Stewart, Harvey Mandel guitar w/ John Mayall, Chris Squire bass w/ Yes, Tommy Bolin in general, Butch Trucks w/ Allman Bros.
Andy Summers/Police
Jerry Harrison/Talking Heads
Phil Manzanera/Roxy Music
montejay, the charles lloyd quartet was one of the greatest groups of the sixties indeed...they rocked.
Drummers and bass players are most often overlooked - to me they form the foundation for much of modern music. IMHO, a good drummer and bass player can carry the whole band with a solid foundation of great grooves even if the antics of lead guitar and vocalist typically get all the spotlight attention.
A band is only as good as its drummer!
Hi Jaybo,
I agree with you. The band kicked &%#$ because Charles surrounded himself with awesome talent.He had a keen ear,but the band, imo, outshined it's leader.Check out Miles 1991 autobiogphy.He loved to pilfer from Lloyd's band!
John Cale (VU) and the late great Gary Thain come to mind. Cale's "Paris 1919" still stands as one of the truly great records of all time and, while Uriah Heep was never a great band, they became amazingly tight when Thain came on board. I've still not heard a better rock bass player.
Regarding Charles Lloyd, "Love-In" recorded live at the Fillmore West was the first recording I bought of him when it came out in LP in 1967. His band for the recording included Keith Jarrett (piano); Ron McClure (bass); Jack DeJohnette (drums).
>>05-17-09: Gawdbless
A band is only as good as its drummer<<

Ringo Starr
Charlie Watts

Stick a fork in that assertion.
Audiofeil-Watts and Starr are not "impressive" drummers BUT they swing like mad and don't miss a beat. You are dead wrong on this one. However, I really did like your picks earlier in this thread.
Music is all about time and timing (amongst other things), If a band does not have a a metronomic drummer regardless of good or badly they do all the show off paradiddlypoms triply rollies and flashy off-beats blah etc blah then you might as well have a drum beat machine.
Then again I can keep a beat, and even on time, occasionally, I wonder if The Rolling and a Stones would be as good If I were their drummer?The money would be nice.
I agree with Lindisfarne.
The fork is in your posterior,lol........
Sorry I am not wrong.

The quote was "A band is only as good as its drummer".

I'm not diminishing the role of a drummer but it's quite clear both the Stones and Beatles would have done just fine without Watts and Starr respectively. The Stones would not have been as good with Gawdbless as their drummer as he says but then again he's probably not a professional musician. Or understands music for that matter but there were plenty of competent drummers in England at that time. Some bands like the Who and Zeppelin were more dependent on their drummer. Not the case for the Stones and Beatles. I hope you understand better now.

Some posters don't have a forking clue.
U2 and Radiohead are major bands that I think are exceptions to bands requiring a stellar rhythm section. They are solid, but no better. You could also put Pink Floyd into that group.

Charlie Watts is tremendous. Don't underestimate the man.
>>Charlie Watts is tremendous. Don't underestimate the man<<

I agree but perhaps you too missed my point. That is, he is not the most talented or most creative or most important member of the Stones. Ditto Ringo Starr.

IMO that is indisputable.

Keep in mind this mini-discussion concerns the assertion "A band is only as good as its drummer". If that were the case the Beatles would only be as good as Ringo and the Stones as good as Watts.

We know that's not the case.
Bill has an excellent point. Case closed as far as I am concerned.
My simple point (seems to have also missed by some) is every band depends on its drummer to keep an accurate (as humanly possible) beat whether they are good as Gene Krupa or as good as The Drummer in AC/DC, or me!, that is not say other members' are any less important.
Funnily enough Jools Holland (amateur piano and not very good) has mentioned that a 'bands is only as good as its drummer', so I am to assume that Mr Holland is not a real 'pro'(although I do not know why the word 'pro' has crept into this discussion, I mean I am a keen cyclist and just because I am no Lance Armstrong does that mean I know nothing about bicycles?) or that Mr Holland knows schock-all about music?
Yeah, drummers seldom get the headlines I suppose.

Not the place to be if you are looking to become a breakout star.

Look at Phil Collins. It was only after Peter Gabriel left and he was chosen to take over lead vocal duties with Genesis that he got noticed.

I never realized how talented Jim Capaldi was until I first heard one of his solo albums.
Speaking of overshadowed drummers, Stewart Copeland was as much responsible for the sound of the Police as were Sting or Andy Summers.

I think Copeland might be the near the top of the list of exceptionally talented, influential, and overshadowed musicians. The Police simply would not have been The Police without his unique sound.

Apologies in advance to anyone who has already mentioned him above.
I agree with the Copeland assertion. I don't listen to the Police as I did during the 80s but when I do I can't help but notice the percussion work going on.
Copeland did a lot of soundtracks - he's got some recognition in that vein. Summers has quite a range outside of the Police as well - his 'Geeen Chimneys' is an interesting listen among others. I've always liked the Police, Sting by default - however Summers and Copleand deserve a lot of credit. Got me through college with a bag of green and a tasty malt anyways. By the way, Roxy Music is a great band - Eno got more credit than Manzanera (he was a roadie at one time) - still great a great group. Good thread to reflect on (under) appreciated talent anyways.