I agree about the seat. I am also stunned by how many expensive systems have a listening position that is a couch with its back up against a wall. It just floors me. People who seem extremely knowledgeable about many facets this hobby who sit against a wall to enjoy between 20 K and 50 K of the highest end gear.
Our home system: How good it is?
My music sound philosophy/reference is the live music/event that unfortunately I can’t mimic on my system or in any other audio system that I heard. I always say that the very best we can achieve is to be nearer to the recording and even this target is a little “ elusive “ to get for say the least.
Through my audio life I heard a lot of different audio systems: I heard it on audio shows, on dealer rooms and on home people’s systems.
With out any doubt the best audio system performances that I already experienced were/are on home systems where I learn several subjects ( including the people music sound priorities ) and one-two of them are the in deep care in the SET UP of each link on the whole audio chain ( including room ). Some of high price systems that I heard it are not very good because its “ lesser “ care on the each link SET UP.
I want to share with all of you my latest experiences that I had 2-3 weeks ago when I visit some audio friends on USA.
I was exposed to 7 different home systems and I share with you my thoughts on only 4 of those home audio systems that I consider have nothing less but top/first rate performance and where I really enjoy the music.
First than all I want to say that all those audio friends were very gentle and with a very high sense on hospitality: thank you in deep to every one for that I really appreciate it in every way including your very value time that you take/give me.
The best subject during my visit to each one of those great people was to know/meet them: meet people with an in deep knowledge on music ( music lovers more than hardware lovers.), with in deep audio experiences, with in deep know how on their each priorities, with in deep care on whole room-system SET UP, with a great software, with an open mind to share and to accept different points of view, with in deep understanding that there are no perfect systems, with a “ humility “ attitude that it is a must to have to grow-up and with the enjoy “ feeling “ of music listening.
This was a very rare opportunity that I enjoy it and that I know I was so lucky about: Thank you again to all of you!!!!
In no order of preference here it is:
HOUSTON: Fred’s place with a dedicated audio room. Acapella big Triolon speakers, Einstein front end electronics, Rockport/Titan i analog rig, Nordost, JC-1s amps, etc.
When the first music note comes from this system you know that it is something special and after a few minutes you forgot about the hardware and start to enjoy fully the software ( either analog/digital ).
The system is so easy to transmit the music “ feelings/emotions “ and let that the sound/music flow directly to your mind.
Those Triorlon are really great and my hat off to Acapella people because they blend three different speaker drivers in an almost perfect mix. I don’t like ( but the immediacy ) horns ( I heard many of them ) and the Triorlon’s has two of them in the midrange frequency range and I have to say that these horns are the lower horn-signature that I ever heard, the mid bass/bass are moving coil drivers and the Plasma tweeter is ( probably ) the speaker star but with out saying “ I’m here “, like I say almost perfect driver blend.
BOISE: Steve’s place with a dedicated audio room. MBL 111 speakers, custom made Berning’s monoblock amplifiers, Technics SP10 MK3 with a Steve self design/build gorgeous plinth with Schroeder Reference tonearm and strain gauge cartridge/front end by Soundsmith and Lyra Olimpos.
This was my three time that I heard MBL speakers and my first time on a home system: what a difference!!!!, these system/speakers are so near the real music that, like in Fred’s system, the only think that you want is to hear music and more music: LP after LP and again!!!!
Those custom made amplifiers are very good match to the MBL’s and has the lower coloration of tube-signature amplifier I ever heard. I know that the MBL speakers are not easy/friendly with tube electronics and in this system everything is on target, of course that Steve’s hand on this count a lot for that.
I experienced here two different quality performance sound: the Soundsmith one ( that is good ) and a MC cartridge one. I have to say that the Soundsmith rig was only 20-30 hours from new and even Steve was “ playing “ with the set-up. Anyway IMHO that day the Lyra quality performance was way better and I enjoy it for many hours. With this MC cartridge things ( great things ) come out specially the non-sense audio system: disappear!, I had only the LP music performance: great performances.
DALLAS: Louis’s place with a dedicated audio room. Kharma Exquisite 1A speakers, CAT’s monobloks ( new ones: 30 hours on it. ), Lamm/Aesthetix front end electronics, Garrad 301/Triplanar/Xv-1and Technics SP-10MK3/SME/Air Tight both with a custom made wood plinths and the 301 with a custom made power supply.
First thing you note at Loui’s place is that huge room, the biggest I ever know ( maybe 2.3 times the Steve or Fred ones that are big. ) in a home stereo system.
Here I think that the stars are those 550 pound each speakers and its room good integration ( not an easy task ). Like the other systems this one is different but really good. This is my second time hearing Kharma speakers and I have to say that are very very good performers.
The whole sound is a refined/sophisticated one where you or anyone are asking for more, not more quality but more time to heard/hear and enjoy music. I was surprised by the 301 rig quality performance ( where I know very well the XV-1 quality. ): first rate, I can’t hear any coloration that I can/could say: “ that’s was the 301 “.
As good as I heard that system Louis told me that through his Lamm amplifiers ( SE 15-18 watts ) the quality of the system’s sound is a step higher!!, unfortunately I can’t hear it with these amplifiers. Anyway a pleasure to hear it on the Cats.
SAN DIEGO: Mark’s place with out a dedicated audio room ( the system belongs to the sitting room ). Revel speakers, Threshold amplifier, Hovland front end electronics and Raven/Triplanar/Ruby 2.
It seems the “ modest “ system on the group but a top quality performer where we know immediately the very hard work that Mark made to achieve that high quality performance. I know very well the Ruby 2 and in this system is something to hear.
Here there is no single “ star “ but a very good set up of audio items group that sounds a lot better that some very high price systems that I heard, money means nothing at all with out whole/overall knowledge.
As different as are all these audio system all them share common things: system whole synergy, when you heard it you know everything is there ( soundstage, good tonal balance, inner detail, transparent, fast response, dynamics, etc, etc, ), nothing is telling you “ I’m here “ ( very well balance ), sounds good with different kind of music and at different SPL levels, you can heard it for many hours and enjoy every minute, etc, etc.
Are these audio system “ perfect “ ?, certainly not: nothing is. Their owners ( all of them ) already know that they have “ land “ to improve and more important that this fact is that all them know where to improve.
Something to “ ask “ to these systems?, well as you know I’m for full range ( octave to octave ) audio systems and if I put really exigent then I can say that all these system “ miss “ the last bass octave/half octave. This bass octave is system/room dependent and speaker design specification dependent: non of those speakers were designed to achieve that low bass frequency range with the same high quality of the other frequency ranges.
Anyway I can say that I never feel the necessity of that bass octave during all those many hours of music pleasure hearing all those audio systems.
It is a nice thing to learn, through other home audio system listening experiences, if what we have at home is in the right “ road “ and this fact help all of us to grow up in the quest of home audio music sound reproduction heaven.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Through my audio life I heard a lot of different audio systems: I heard it on audio shows, on dealer rooms and on home people’s systems.
With out any doubt the best audio system performances that I already experienced were/are on home systems where I learn several subjects ( including the people music sound priorities ) and one-two of them are the in deep care in the SET UP of each link on the whole audio chain ( including room ). Some of high price systems that I heard it are not very good because its “ lesser “ care on the each link SET UP.
I want to share with all of you my latest experiences that I had 2-3 weeks ago when I visit some audio friends on USA.
I was exposed to 7 different home systems and I share with you my thoughts on only 4 of those home audio systems that I consider have nothing less but top/first rate performance and where I really enjoy the music.
First than all I want to say that all those audio friends were very gentle and with a very high sense on hospitality: thank you in deep to every one for that I really appreciate it in every way including your very value time that you take/give me.
The best subject during my visit to each one of those great people was to know/meet them: meet people with an in deep knowledge on music ( music lovers more than hardware lovers.), with in deep audio experiences, with in deep know how on their each priorities, with in deep care on whole room-system SET UP, with a great software, with an open mind to share and to accept different points of view, with in deep understanding that there are no perfect systems, with a “ humility “ attitude that it is a must to have to grow-up and with the enjoy “ feeling “ of music listening.
This was a very rare opportunity that I enjoy it and that I know I was so lucky about: Thank you again to all of you!!!!
In no order of preference here it is:
HOUSTON: Fred’s place with a dedicated audio room. Acapella big Triolon speakers, Einstein front end electronics, Rockport/Titan i analog rig, Nordost, JC-1s amps, etc.
When the first music note comes from this system you know that it is something special and after a few minutes you forgot about the hardware and start to enjoy fully the software ( either analog/digital ).
The system is so easy to transmit the music “ feelings/emotions “ and let that the sound/music flow directly to your mind.
Those Triorlon are really great and my hat off to Acapella people because they blend three different speaker drivers in an almost perfect mix. I don’t like ( but the immediacy ) horns ( I heard many of them ) and the Triorlon’s has two of them in the midrange frequency range and I have to say that these horns are the lower horn-signature that I ever heard, the mid bass/bass are moving coil drivers and the Plasma tweeter is ( probably ) the speaker star but with out saying “ I’m here “, like I say almost perfect driver blend.
BOISE: Steve’s place with a dedicated audio room. MBL 111 speakers, custom made Berning’s monoblock amplifiers, Technics SP10 MK3 with a Steve self design/build gorgeous plinth with Schroeder Reference tonearm and strain gauge cartridge/front end by Soundsmith and Lyra Olimpos.
This was my three time that I heard MBL speakers and my first time on a home system: what a difference!!!!, these system/speakers are so near the real music that, like in Fred’s system, the only think that you want is to hear music and more music: LP after LP and again!!!!
Those custom made amplifiers are very good match to the MBL’s and has the lower coloration of tube-signature amplifier I ever heard. I know that the MBL speakers are not easy/friendly with tube electronics and in this system everything is on target, of course that Steve’s hand on this count a lot for that.
I experienced here two different quality performance sound: the Soundsmith one ( that is good ) and a MC cartridge one. I have to say that the Soundsmith rig was only 20-30 hours from new and even Steve was “ playing “ with the set-up. Anyway IMHO that day the Lyra quality performance was way better and I enjoy it for many hours. With this MC cartridge things ( great things ) come out specially the non-sense audio system: disappear!, I had only the LP music performance: great performances.
DALLAS: Louis’s place with a dedicated audio room. Kharma Exquisite 1A speakers, CAT’s monobloks ( new ones: 30 hours on it. ), Lamm/Aesthetix front end electronics, Garrad 301/Triplanar/Xv-1and Technics SP-10MK3/SME/Air Tight both with a custom made wood plinths and the 301 with a custom made power supply.
First thing you note at Loui’s place is that huge room, the biggest I ever know ( maybe 2.3 times the Steve or Fred ones that are big. ) in a home stereo system.
Here I think that the stars are those 550 pound each speakers and its room good integration ( not an easy task ). Like the other systems this one is different but really good. This is my second time hearing Kharma speakers and I have to say that are very very good performers.
The whole sound is a refined/sophisticated one where you or anyone are asking for more, not more quality but more time to heard/hear and enjoy music. I was surprised by the 301 rig quality performance ( where I know very well the XV-1 quality. ): first rate, I can’t hear any coloration that I can/could say: “ that’s was the 301 “.
As good as I heard that system Louis told me that through his Lamm amplifiers ( SE 15-18 watts ) the quality of the system’s sound is a step higher!!, unfortunately I can’t hear it with these amplifiers. Anyway a pleasure to hear it on the Cats.
SAN DIEGO: Mark’s place with out a dedicated audio room ( the system belongs to the sitting room ). Revel speakers, Threshold amplifier, Hovland front end electronics and Raven/Triplanar/Ruby 2.
It seems the “ modest “ system on the group but a top quality performer where we know immediately the very hard work that Mark made to achieve that high quality performance. I know very well the Ruby 2 and in this system is something to hear.
Here there is no single “ star “ but a very good set up of audio items group that sounds a lot better that some very high price systems that I heard, money means nothing at all with out whole/overall knowledge.
As different as are all these audio system all them share common things: system whole synergy, when you heard it you know everything is there ( soundstage, good tonal balance, inner detail, transparent, fast response, dynamics, etc, etc, ), nothing is telling you “ I’m here “ ( very well balance ), sounds good with different kind of music and at different SPL levels, you can heard it for many hours and enjoy every minute, etc, etc.
Are these audio system “ perfect “ ?, certainly not: nothing is. Their owners ( all of them ) already know that they have “ land “ to improve and more important that this fact is that all them know where to improve.
Something to “ ask “ to these systems?, well as you know I’m for full range ( octave to octave ) audio systems and if I put really exigent then I can say that all these system “ miss “ the last bass octave/half octave. This bass octave is system/room dependent and speaker design specification dependent: non of those speakers were designed to achieve that low bass frequency range with the same high quality of the other frequency ranges.
Anyway I can say that I never feel the necessity of that bass octave during all those many hours of music pleasure hearing all those audio systems.
It is a nice thing to learn, through other home audio system listening experiences, if what we have at home is in the right “ road “ and this fact help all of us to grow up in the quest of home audio music sound reproduction heaven.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Showing 7 responses by shadorne
Halcro, This link will help you understand. Just watch the animation and bear in mind that the reflections cause "comb filtering" making some frequencies disappear altogether. Notice the rear wall "purple wave" has a stonger arrival at the listener nearly as big as the primary green acoustic wave - in fact it is teh biggest and messiest secondary arrival as it has lots of coherence. The best sound is achieved when secondary reflections arriving at the listener are separated from the primary arrival by about a minimum of 7 Msec with 10 to 15 msec generally regarded as optimal. Reduction in their amplitude helps but fundamentally it is best to avoid any early reflections (you need to drop a reflected signal by more than 10 db before it begins to less destectable to the ear as a source of sound directionally). Fatiguing or claustrophobic is the impression you get from a lot of very early and large amplitude reflections as the brain is bombarded with sound from all directions. Rememember that as you move the listener towards the back wall it will reduce the primary engery and increase the reflected energy - at about 2 feet the rear wall reflections may actually become LOUDER than the primary sound and a mere 4 msecs behind it (confusing the soundstage). Likewise Ethan Winner explains room acoustics and the importance of creating a Reflection Free Zone at the listening position. Another helpful tip is to look at the recommended place to position bass traps. Invariably the best spot for maximum bass absorption is a foot or two out from the wall - this is where the modal acoustic energy from room modal standing waves is often the highest (with corners being the very strongest) - obviously this also happens to be a bad place to have your listening position. Another useful tip is to google studios and take a look at their designs from photos -for example. Search as much as you like but you will NEVER find a setup in a prestigious studio (where they can afford the best) with the listening position close to a side wall or a rear wall, as everyone knows how bad and cluttered this will sound. Generally distance to rear wall will EXCEED distance to side walls and rear walls will often be treated/damped because the strongest most coherent reflection in a room is 1) The bass reflection off the wall behind your speakers ( this is why studios build their main speakers into a wall or use very close small near-field monitors for critical listening - just as you see in the photo - you can find hundreds more and more or less they will be the very similar) 2) The bass reflection off the wall from behind the listener (long hall like rooms with treated rear walls behind listeners are preferred). I hope this helps. I understand it is not that obvious and that too much literature concentrates on side walls and neglects the wall behind the listener. This subject is probably the most important but least advertised aspect of teh audiophile hobby. However, remember that manufacturers want rather you spend more on their cables, amps, and speakers than acoustics. Besides, if you are sturggling with acoustics then you are more likely to be disatisfied with your system compared to others and therefore keep spending money on upgrades... I would suggest that Rives would be an excellent resource too you can find god articles they have written also. Of course these companies (like Ethan Winner's Realtraps) make a living from selling designs and acoustic products but they are not above giving common sense advice for free. Perhaps Rives will chime in - they will know an awful lot more about this than my rduimentary and superficial treatment of this subject. |
BTW - please forgive my lousy typing, and one more thing on Point 2) => you will notice listening position in studios tends to be far from the rear wall behind listener - most often with the engineer sitting in the front half of the room. A good rule of thumb is the 38% room length rule - a listening position along the longest dimension of the room is often best at 38% of the length - studio engineers tend to sit forward in the 38% zone from the front of room whilst home listeners will probably get most enjoyment from sitting in the further 38% position from rear wall (this generally gives a more pleasing ambience and a broader more natural soundstage) After staking out the best reflection free listening position in a room then it is a matter of finding optimum speaker placement. |
For sure there is some leakage and more so in the bass (which penetrates wood walls but less so with brick), however, bass frequencies (with long wavelengths) are the most susceptible to modal effects, which makes the problem quite acute in the bass (as much as 20 db peaks and troughs in some rooms). The bass issues are often accentuated or worst in the dead center of a room or close to a wall. Hopefully others will chime in - but, like Bob, I feel this to be common knowledge. |
I’m for full range ( octave to octave ) audio systems and if I put really exigent then I can say that all these system “ miss “ the last bass octave/half octave. This bass octave is system/room dependent and speaker design specification dependent: non of those speakers were designed to achieve that low bass frequency range with the same high quality of the other frequency ranges. We are on the same page here. I think that rolled off bass is better than poor quality bass. I agree that 20 to 40 HZ is extremely difficult to do accurately and rarely can it be achieved with any degree of accuracy at even modest SPL's (as one typically finds possible from most any tweeter). This is not a limitation of the wonderful systems you visited and heard. This is physics. If you really need accurate down to 20 HZ at say 120 db SPL with less than 1% distortion (a reasonable requirement for 20Hz which is barely audible anyway) then I'd suggest multiple extremely large sealed box subs with 15" woofers. Four of them would probably do it in a large room. Often impractical from an aesthetics and space point of view. Those with two JL fathoms in a modest size room can't be all that far off but even these mosnters struggle at 20 Hz to maintain low distortion. |
in both cases it is mandatory to make a good wall tratment to avoid " interferences" Absolutely agree. However, if you sit on a couch with its back to a wall (head within 1 1/2 foot of a wall) then no amount of treatment is going to "avoid" significant issues, IMHO. Sure you can put "lipstick on a pig" with extensive treatments but apart from a corner or the precise center of a small square room - this is about the worst choice for a place to sit. Again two cents and I am pleased you raised this important point - especially considering the stratospheric systems you mentioned. Indeed it is surprising how a few audiophiles could gain so much for so little (merely changing the room around). Those unfortunate enough to have bought the latest and greatest Class A components but who are unwilling to adjust their listening position because a couch against a wall just looks neat/tidy and makes good utilitarian use of the available space...the "aesthetics" or tastes of the "eyes" are short changing what the ears get, all to often trading visual pleasure/comfort for great sound. |
you may leap to the assumption that you have, but I propose that it is not born out by science, facts or acoustics. No leap here. It is a fact that walls reflect acoustic waves - as shown in the animation on the first PrimeAcoustic link I gave you. If you sit next to a wall then you will get very strong reflections of whatever you are listening to - the closer the louder and the earlier the secondary reflection arrives - a large flat surface symmetrically opposite the speakers (wall behind the listener) being one of the loudest and most coherent reflection in any room. You can use absorption to reduce the impact but it has been shown that 1) lower mid bass and bass frequencies are very hard to absorb 2) that even low level early reflections can disrupt our sense of where a sound orignated from (affects imaging/soundstage). The fact that he recommends that ALL room surfaces including ceilings, should be absorbent alerts any knowing audiophile, and also the fact that he recommends ceiling-mounted speakers is a dead giveaway..... Good point - however, I never said I agree with everything Ethan ever said - I was just pointing out his web page about the importance of a "Reflection Free Zone" at the listening position. But if you seriously believe that the acoustics in a recording studio are what we should be aiming for in our home listening rooms, then I beg to differ. Actually I don't. I was trying to make a point about where is the best listening position. If sitting at a wall was equally good then surely you would expect to find a fair number of studios set up this way. But conversely, are you implying that we cannot learn something from audio professionals with multi-million dollar facilities? Nor is it born out by my listening experiences. No problem. This wins any debate hands down. If sitting with your head next to the back wall works for you then go for it. Let me just add - I am not seeking to have an argument. I respect that you now have an entrenched opposing position here - so that is ok. I spent some time yesterday on what I thought was to provide some useful information to a fellow hobbyist that is all....you know, since you asked me. I'll stop here becuase there isn't really any point going further as your experience trumps anything I can provide. |