''Óriginal parts'', ''identity '' and ''retip'' conundrum


The ''identity enigma'' is easy to explain with ''ownership''. Not everyone is familiar with logic or philosophy but everyone owns something or other.

Ownership assume ''one to one relation'' between an person (legal

bodies included) and one object of ownership. Think of question how

you can prove to own some object. You can also think about question

how to prove to be owner of, say an part of your stolen car.

What the ''force'' of the expression ''original'' is , is an enigma.

However Americans are typical example of   people who are very

fond of ''original parts'' and willing to pay huge amount of money

for the ''precious'' (grin). By the so called ''retips'' the assumption

is also ''original'' versus ''not original parts''. This means that 

every manufacturer as well ''retiper'' uses his own styli and or

cantilevers. The fact however is that they all buy those ''parts''

by either by Namiki or Ogura. So, logicaly speaking, the origin

of those ''parts'' are either Namiki or Ogura. Is gluing an cantilever/

stylus combo in the ''joint pipe'' rocket science?

48f03962 30db 4aad a0a9 eab5c5d5ce40nandric

No, but it takes a darn steady hand, way steadier than mine. An assembly microscope helps and they are not cheap. I think the stylus profile is the most important issue. If you liked the sound do not change profiles. 

The main issue is resale value. I believe "retipped by manufacturer" gets more money. 

mijostyn, ''reripped by manufacturer'' is wishful thinking. The ''later

produced styli''  seems to be better. Wrong assertions can never

produce right answers.

Post removed 

Was it always the case that manufacturers were limited to Ogura and Namiki? Possibly not. If not, then some cartridges with “house built” cantilever and stylus cannot be restored exactly as original, unless the OEM can still do the restoration with original parts.

Hi Lew, In the German magazine ''LP'' the whole story about Gyger can be

found. They never made profit from their styli production. Probably because

Van den Hul who designed Gyger I, II and S (?) stipulates his right to sell

them under his own name. So Van den Hul sold many more than Gyger.

Gyger is out of styli business. So Benz uses at present ''micro ridge'' 

which is produced by Namiki. I am not sure but Ogura seems to

produce elliptical styli only. Than we have the curious ''lack of boron''

for the boron cantilevers. The fact that sapphire is more cheap may

explain the situation. I hope J. Carr will help with , say, the truth value?

Post removed 

But didn’t SoundSmith recently introduce the boron option? Which must mean he recently found a source. Some others do too. (Listening to Barton piano concerto #2 which is not relaxing, for the pianist at least.)

Boron rod is used by several rebuilder's including VAS. Boron pipe is no longer made though.

 

BillWojo

Dear Lew, I assume you mean Bartok piano concerto. 

Alas my post about small numbers is removed by the moderators.

Probable because there no such individuals in USA? 

Speaking about numbers it seems that next to big and small numbers

there are also ''several'' kinds. Considering my ''point'' about

identity those will be difficult to, uh, identify. However the ''whole

point'' about styli is their identity which is assumed to be determined

by manufacturer. But my point is that manufacturer as well retipper

buy those by Namiki or Ogura. I recently retipped one of my carts

by ''Expert Stylus'' but was not able to get boron cantilever. Besides

this info about ''boron shortage'' I got in this forum. Whom can one

trust (grin). 

 

 

 

A few years past I have had a Beryllium Cantilever with an Ogura Vital Diamond attached and fitted to a Cartridge by a well known Rebuild Service in Europe.

Most will claim Beryllium is not a option on offer. 

Cactus Needle will also be an offering from a rebuild service and the source will not be from Namiki or Ogura.

The Structure of a Cactus Needle when seen under a microscope is Scale like and the tests have shown the Cactus Needle is significantly harder than all other organic wood materials, the Cactus Needle has a very stable property and is not changing in differing ambient conditions.

I have not investigated Madake Bamboo as a Cantilever, so can't offer a summary on how it compares to Cactus as a alternative organic material.   

After years of effort I was finally able to make the perfect cantilever. Crossed saguaro cactus with Madake bamboo watered with beryllium fertilizer, powder coated with boron and diamond dust it is tipped with dilithium crystal in a Hattori Hansu samurai profile that slices through records like butter.

Unfortunately it turns out better to slice through the groove, and not the whole record. Back to the drawing board....

For all of the above it highlights that you can’t beat sending the cartridge back to the manufacturer for refurbishment. Note I did not say retip.

I have had my Dynavector Karat Nova rebuilt 3 times - each time it comes back completely rebuilt (including generator) with new test results for each rebuild - output, inter channel separation, optimum tracking weight etc all documented.

If you look at how the original diamond fits into the cantilever, in many cartridges retipping can never achieve the same level of fit - there will always be more glue than in the original. There is an argument for "should you replace the whole cantilever, diamond assembly" in order to maintain integrity. I don’t think retippers have access to precision micro laser cutters that Namiki possess.

On my original Sumiko Talismans with sapphire cantilever/microridge diamond you cannot see the glue at all. Compare that to the famous Garrott retips that I also have there is significantly more glue.

 

 

I recently stared the thread ''on what there is'' but , alas, this was not

an success. Beryllium is toxic and forbidden in order to protect labourer..

This means that production of beryllium cantilevers is forbidden. However

we can't know what individual retippers have in their stock. It is possible

that your retipper bought an ''huge amount'' when those were available. 

I have never heard about retip problems with cactus styli. My point was

that assumption that each manufacturer uses his own ''uniqeu stylus''

such that other styli are something totally different is based on sand.

Or that manufacturer and retipper use the same styli. However ''original

stylus'' suggest something else. That is the problem of the word ''original''.

''Original'' also assume identity otherwise we would have no idea what

we are talking about. Hower such persons can't be excluded,

Japanese economic success was based on improving western technology

and this presupposes changing their ''originality''. 

 

Otherwise there would be no such aversion against retips. My point 

is that retipper use the same styli as the manufacturer. My point is

nor ''what kind of cantilevers there are''. Identity assumes recognizing

the thing to be recognised. There is no other possibility . The owner

of object is supposed to know that this object is his ownership.   

 

Dear dover, Who would believe that you would use Rauls terminology?

I never understood what he meant with ''refurbishing'' but he deed this

all the time. Are you not confusing cart exchange with refurbishing?

Many manufacturer refuse ''retipping'' but offer exchange . For them

it is more easy to offer an new cart instead to mess with the old one.

However putting new generator with the rest in the ''old body'' 

may look as ''refurbishing''???

Dear dover, by wrestling with identity conundrum I forget the most

important thing. You as former owner of an , say, HI-Fi shop should

know this better than I. My assumptions is that manufacturer get +/-

30 % of the price, 30% importer and 30% dealers. Your refurbishment

other call  ''rebuild''. This is than an ''one to one'' relation between

customer and manufacturer. The so called ''íntermediary'' are

avoided . Does this mean that you got your cart for 30% of the

retail price? BTW refurbishing is as clear as rebuild. There are many

parts in an MC cart. One need to know which parts are rebuild 

otherwise we are there were we started.

I think rebuilding and/or retipping may be a bit like plastic surgery; one is better off not knowing too much about it.  Once you do gain the knowledge, the bloom is off the rose.

Nandric - it comes down to economics and budget.

For the least cost you can get an aftermarket retipper to insert another stylus.

For a few more dollars you can send it to the manufacturer and receive back effectively a new cartridge built to the manufacturers specifications.

In many instances manufacturers will incorporate any new developments.

For example my Dynavector on the last rebuild got a micro ridge stylus instead of the Ogura - it is a vastly better cartridge than when it was originally purchased new.

Even if you paid say 60-70% of the purchase price for a "new" cartridge one could say it is good value.

If you feel the price is still too high I like to pose the question - how much does a golf club membership cost, and yet you can use the cartridge everyday rain or shine.

 

A Cartridge becomes unique by the selection of materials used for the assembly.

In the material selection there many be a common part used as a Cantilever>Stylus, that is sourced from a dependable Producer in the Supply Chain for the procurement of the product.

As I stated the choices when using the Third Party 'retiper' service are not limited to only Two Brands Products, there are further options to be considered.

It is not for me to say whether considering such a option for Cartridge is correct/incorrect.

My own experience has been from choosing a not so commonly offered material such as Beryllium, where reliance of a assessment of the new parts in use,          has been drawn from a personal subjective evaluation and a groups subjective evaluation, is that this method has been very well received and there is a noticeable improvement over a Original Spec' Cartridge. In my case the veer away from maintaining original parts has been very rewarding.

The OP's statement below appears to suggest that when a Third Party 'retiper' service is used, the options on choices are limited to the the use of Two Brands Products only , as seen in the underscored section below.

My experience and point being made is that this is not the case when discussing options on a Service from a Third Party ' retiper', the options are not going to be limited to this. Albeit that it does require the need to commence in a dialogue with a technician to discover the options that can be offered. 

The second most important concern for myself, is whether a Service has the Experience and Skill Set to produce the optimized product as part of the process being undertaken.

My experience as a 'layman only' of investigating a variety of Cartridge Rebuilds,     if the information viewed is bona fide, has shown Cartridges after short usage and needing to undergo a repair, that are in a condition that does not suggest Quality Control was a paramount concern when the Cartridge was produced.          These observations do not endear one, to the idea of entrusting manufacturers that have a good proportion of the Market Place.   

My money goes in the direction where I feel it is to be best served.

By the so called ''retips'' the assumption

is also ''original'' versus ''not original parts''. This means that 

every manufacturer as well ''retiper'' uses his own styli and or

cantilevers. The fact however is that they all buy those ''parts''

by either by Namiki or Ogura. So, logicaly speaking, the origin

of those ''parts'' are either Namiki or Ogura. 

 

Dear dover,  Not everyone can move to New Zeeland to enjoy clean

air, nature , holy water and exceptional wines. You mentioned ''cost''

but without numbers. So we have no idea what your ''refreshments''

cost. For ''us'' the commons 500 euro for an RETIP with cantilever+

stylus is ''mucho dollares''. For this kind of money one can get an decent

MM as Raul has shown. But you are not specific about parts and

their IDENTITI while logic state : no identity without entity. Aka the

''classical objects''. One can also state that MC consist of different  parts

which need to be put together.  Each of those parts assumes its own

identity. Say ''the moving parts'' consist of ''joint pipe'' (aka aluminum tube)

in which front side cantilever stylus combo is glued and on its back side

coils and tension wire are fastened . Those are moving parts while

tension wire connects those moving parts with generator which does

not move. Now does Dynavector produce its own styli + cantilevers

or are those ''simply'' bought by Namiki or Ogura? Mentioning ''micro

ridge'' means Namiki stylus. Does Dynavector ''glue'' those with very

little glue in their own cantilevers? If so what is the difference ''against'' 

common retiper? The amount of glue? I thought about this young

man who was very careful to inform the parents of his girl friend:

''your daughter is little bit  pregnant''. 

 

pinda, the so called ''free market'' exist only in economic books. Take

for example Holland the ''champion of free market''. Each item that

cross the border means 12% import duty + 21% VAT. Beryllum cantilevers

are not available in ordinary sense. Only those retipers who have them

in stock can provide them. If those are outside of E.Union ... You get

the picture. The so called ''free choice'' in a myth. ''Possible choices''

assume ''impossible kind''. So your ''inductive reasoning'' aka from your

individual situation to general statement will not do. The same apply

for our beloved dover. One can much better formulate some hypothetical

statement which we can see as ''assertion'' from which deductions

can be made. Then reason in ''usual logic'': if the assertions are not

true then deduced statements are also not true.

Some cartridges have no manufacturer alive anymore, and styli are nowhere to be found.  The Micro Acoustics 3002 that I have is just such a cartridge. Maintaining all original parts is not an option. 

Mine has a snapped beryllium cantilever. 

So it will go to a retipper. He can fuse on a boron rod to the beryllium rod stump, or an aluminum alloy, or sapphire, or zirconium, titanium, pretty much my choice, but not beryllium unless I have a donor cantilever. Tips? Pretty much the only limiting factor is price. Boron/MicroRidge would be the closest to original. 
 

My choices are to wait forever for a stylus to come along, or have it repaired/retipped. 

This stuff about only having the manufacturer do a repair is a bunch of bull hockey. Often, the reputable hand craftsmanship of a retipper can get tolerances better than the factories have the time for. 
 

 

@nandric , having cantilevers made covers a fairly wide range of possible options. At the simplest, Namiki / Ogura will deliver an off-the-shelf catalog design cantilever of the kinds that are published in their documentation or websites. Altering the stylus angle to match the cartridge's cantilever rake angle so that the final SRA will be around 90º can also be specified (Namiki / Ogura's catalog specs assume a standard cantilever rake angle of 20º). Everyone who buys from Namiki / Ogura has access to this level of cantilever build.

But Namiki / Ogura also accommodate various degrees of customization.
Entry level of custom assemblies will involve the cartridge manufacturer delivering a bespoke, detailed design that may use original, non-catalog shapes and dimensions, but the materials will be standard Namiki / Ogura fare. Nonetheless, since the design work will have been done by the client (cartridge manufacturer, retipping company etc.), Namiki / Ogura do not have the right to provide such cantilevers to other parties unless there is express written permission by the designer or estate inheritor (in the case of designers who have passed away).

One such example is the Lyra-designed stylus that we have Ogura make for us. Although this stylus has non-proprietary aspects like 3um x 70um contact radii, we also designed in additional, less obvious features to help performance, therefore Ogura do not have the right to deliver the Lyra stylus to other clients. If Ogura wishes to do so, they can make their own 3um x 70um stylus and deliver it to their other clients (Robert Torlai in Italy claims to be using an Ogura-made 3um x 70um stylus), but not the Lyra design.

Second level of custom cantilevers is where the client specifies materials or methods outside of Namiki / Ogura standard choices, but are common or well-known enough that Namiki / Ogura are able to procure said materials / methods on their own, without requiring that these be provided by the client. This may include alloys, adhesives, suspension wires, coil formers, non-contact machining, heat treatments, cryogenics etc.
Nothing prevents Namiki / Ogura from using such materials or methods in the cantilevers of other clients, but generally speaking, unless the client's engineering drawings include clear requests for specific materials or methods, what will be used are the more standard choices.

Similar to the above, there may be places in the design where Namiki / Ogura would normally join one part to another with adhesives, however the client can alternatively specify crimps, press-fits, interference joints, welds, brazes etc. Again, the client's engineering drawings should include clear requests for specific joining methods, otherwise Namiki / Ogura's standard methods will be applied.

Third level of custom cantilevers is where Namiki / Ogura do not have direct access to the materials specified by the client, and depend on the client to provide the materials. One example would be Ceralloy, which was the very first cantilever material that we used in production. This was a whisker-reinforced alloy that we had formulated and made, and we delivered the ingots to Ogura so that they could shape the individual cantilevers and fit them to the rest of the parts. (As an aside, some of Highphonic's A-series cartridges used a related material. Their formulation was somewhat different from ours, but it was the same class of whisker-reinforced alloys.)
Likewise for the diamond-coated boron cantilevers of the Etna and Atlas; Diamond-coating of boron is outside of Ogura's capabilities, therefore Lyra delivers these to Ogura, who does the final shaping and assembly.

A similar situation applies to Lyra's chemically purified iron coil formers, MySonic's SH-μX coil formers, Satin's coreless spiral coils, and undoubtedly the micro-coils used in JVC's MC-L1 / L10 / L1000, with the client providing the materials (sometimes the completed part), which Namiki / Ogura build into the rest of the cantilever.

Fourth level of custom cantilevers is where the client specifies unique parts that Namiki / Ogura are unable to or cannot figure out how to make on their own. The one-piece diamond cantilever used in Sony's XL-88D (and derivatives) are an obvious example. In such cases, the client will provide know-how and advice, guide Namiki / Ogura to suitable fabrication equipment, and otherwise collaborate with Namiki / Ogura so that the parts can be made successfully.
Sometimes, even with the client's assistance, Namiki / Ogura aren't able to make the part exactly according to spec, or tolerances / yield may be beyond the client's wishes. In such cases, the client either has to give up on the part, or be willing to accept what Namiki / Ogura are able to deliver.

There are other categories, but those above are the major ones.

hope this helps, jonathan

PS. Regarding the joint-pipes which are the most common means by which replacement / alternative cantilevers are fitted, they are not present in all cartridge designs. For example, Takeda-san of Miyabi is one well-known designer who disliked the mechanical filtering effect of adhesive joints, therefore a number of his models (and the Fuugas) eschewed joint pipes in favor of seamless metal alloy cantilevers, even at the cost of higher effective mass. Similar thinking as on Sony's XL-88D, but expressed in a different way.

PPS. These days some online vendors selling used cartridges do not bother indicating if a cartridge is in original condition or has been retipped by someone else. We were recently returned a Lyra by way of WAM Engineering, in which we were taken to task for inadequate stylus alignment. The cartridge should have had an Ogura-made cantilever; it had a Namiki instead. The owner had purchased the cartridge second-hand, unaware that it was a retip.
And on our side, it was not a pleasant experience to be blamed for someone else's failings.

PPPS. @mijostyn , in addition to cantilever / stylus block alignment issues, it is also possible for the stylus' groove contact surfaces to be twisted or misaligned within the diamond block. In such cases concentrating on the alignment of the diamond block to the cantilever will not help very much.

Dear jcarr, I am speechless. If one can believe this about an

lawyer (grin). But you provided all  ''entities'' with their identities

as logic and scientific discussion presuppose. The most of us are

laymen but willing to learn, You are a kind of our Professor and

we all are proud to have you in our forum. Many thanks.

Hi wolfie, Kant wrote an book about ''pure reason'' and one about 

''practical reason'', Your contribution is obvious about ''practical

reason''. The one that ''counts'' for the most of us. You are probably

to young to know who Marlene Ditrich was. The older among us 

admire her because of her legs. She was wondering why American

women are so badly clothed, She stated : ''at present (1960) one can

get decent cloths for ONLY $ 100000 ''. At present there are also

carts for + 15 K...  

Even though I just bought a new Hegel V10 so that I could play my records, this conversation makes my head spin. It’s hard to be a vinyl aficionado! 

jallan, you should not blame your own shortcomings to other.

After the lecture of our Professor JCarr and the ''synthesis'' by dover:

''it comes down to economics and budget''  we may try to ''reduce

the complexity'' of  our questions  to some ''well- organized survay'',

Retips in their ''cheap budget domain'' as  contrapositioned to '''rebuild'' or

''refreshment by the manufacturer'' may form ''division line'' in the sense

of what is affordable to whom. My guess ''division'' is at $ 3000 . Obviously

arbitrary but those who can afford ''refreshment'' are ''other category'' of

income earners. Think of those ''astronomical prices '' of MC cartridges,

Those who can afford them will certainly not care about ''retips'' in their

''inferiour interpretation'' So ''retips'' are not their problem. The fact that

there are pretty many producers which aim at the rich among us imply

that those are not scarce, One need ro accommodate to new riches from

the not expected former socialistic countries  like China and Russia.

 We don't need to be envy, There are plenty excellent  carts from both 

kinds for ''modest prices''.

 

after that, my admiration for Lyra grows..ever fond

Merry Christmas all and to you @jcarr  !,,,

Jim

Four things.

First, which exact parts, as in part numbers, did the manufacturer use? I'm an ignorant man, I don't know if this is an issue; but it sure is an issue with every other mechanical device I own.  I'll bet that a Koetsu isn't going to sound the same after a generic stylus is fitted with a glob of glue in place of a precision fit.

Second, some manufacturers rebuild from the ground up. That means getting a completely new cartridge for less than new cost.

Third, some parts are no longer generally available, such as boron tubes and platinum magnets.

Fourth, one can reasonably expect a high end manufacturer to choose high end parts. For example, the legend is that HP used to buy ultra-premium tubes by the gross, test, keep 3, and send 141 to the dumpster. That's why HP tubes  cost more, and everybody paid up (after trying to make their 'scopes work with run-of-the-mill stuff). It was also said that the reason Mercedes bought Chrysler was so they could order materials in bulk and high-grade the best for their own use.

So I'll be sending my cartridge back to the manufacturer, thank you. Not for psychological reasons, but to maintain their quality.

Instead of " expect a high end manufacturer to choose high end parts"

should read " expect a high end manufacturer to choose highly selected parts"

JCarr mentioned Mori san as ''neglected innovator'' who got, despite

of this ''neglect'' much attention from our Aussie who collect not only

cartridges of both kinds but also Patek Philip watches. He wrote an

''poem''  about XL 88D (D= diamond). What is less known is Raul's

''poem'' about XL-44 l. So, it seems, Mori made ''rich man'' but also

''poor man'' cartridges.  The innovation involved was ''8 form''  coil

former and ''potting''. That is using some  damping ''stuff'' inside

the cart body to ''kill the resonaces''.. My friend and retiper  Axel

Schurholz described the ''stuff'' as ''glue'', Later on I found similar

method of damping by Magic Diamond made by Reto Andreoli .

The whole XL Sony series used the same generator but different

cantilevers and styli. The cheapest kind by XL 44. So I posted my

sample ( $350) to Axel and asked his best cantilever/stylus combo.

Aka boron cantilever and ''nude shibata''. Well this ''poor man cart''

can compete with all my ''exotic kinds''. I also need to mention ''lyrical

description'' by Raul about ''old and forgotten ADC 26/27''.  I bought

two for 300 euro. In my last sentence  in my previous contribution

I stated ''there are plenty excellent cartridges for modest prices''.

Those are two examples.

The supplied information by @jcarr about the Cartridge having been rebuilt to a condition that had shown to be Poor and there was non original parts in place is quite important, as there is a shift in the market to buying used Cartridges becoming more common, especially for the Higher Priced Items.

For some using the used market,  it is the most cost effective entrance into the creating the opportunity to acquire the Cartridges that have the Higher Price Tags. For another, it can quite simply mean a rare model has appeared and is the desired to own list. I have seen the latter happen very recently with a Ortofon Vienna, that surfaced in the used Market

In either case, it really is a case for the Buyer to do their home work and research, to ensure they are not buying into a known Model that has undergone 'cut and shut' standards of remediation on a faulty model, Caveat Emptor is the most valuable guidance, a very helpful vendor who supplies accurate information to inquiries, is a bonus. 

How the above weaves itself into the description of an occurrence that @jcarr was  exposed to is unknown, but which ever way, a party with no involvement was incorrectly labelled with the blame and this again, is unjust.   

I have no issue with not using non OEM parts in a Cartridge, as long as the design is seen to be for the better, and the decision is taken as a result of advise offered by a technician.

Secondly, at no time would this information be concealed, it would be described correctly, Third Party Service Provider and Methods chosen, this would be revealed, whether during a demonstration or if the decision was made to sell.

The Cartridge rebuild service I have used, will not work with a Cartridge that is showing evidence of not being an original spec model. The explained stance,  is that the necessary investigation of whether the Cartridge can be repaired to a improved condition, and undoing any work that has been carried out, is a cost the service are not going to pass onto a Customer. 

  

Selected parts was the ''argument'' for the AT Signet series ,also

for for the ''Precept'' series as if AT nomenclature was not sufficient

''extendeded''. Some scientist complain about ''too many variables''.

What about ''to many names''? 

Besides this imply that the parts are not equal . I avoid expression

''identical'' in order not to cause additional confusion. Those are, I think

PR ''arguments''. Besides how are we supposed to know or check? .

There was ever an linguistic theory about ''emotional meaning of words''.

I think that expression ''original'' causes ''emotions''. But this theory

lost from ''referential one''  which prefer names for the identity 

determination. But  there are to many objects in the know universe,

not to mention the parallel one, so we have not names for all of them.

That is why we use ''descriptive names''  like ''iron horse'' for the

first seen locomotive  or ''the teacher of Alexander'' , etc, etc,.. 

We also use words to pretend something or other. So be careful

by reading post in our forum.

 

That is why we use ''descriptive names''  like ''iron horse'' for the

first seen locomotive  or ''the teacher of Alexander'' , etc, etc,.. 

A great example of a "descriptive name" is the term   "a dead horse".

An example would be your fantasy that a retipper can rebuild a cartridge to better than new with a cantilever and/or stylus that resembles nothing like the original.

To indulge your fetish within your budget I would suggest you invest in an Audio Technica AT95E and a Paratrace Stylus from the Expert Stylus Company. This will indeed meet your budgetary requirements.

Dear dover, you still use the expression ''rebuild'' as the old Greek

''deus ex machina'' . An MC cart is ''composition'' of different parts.

Your ''rebuild'' expression  not one single one. There is this metaphor

 which state that ''whole'' is more than its parts. I was talking about

styli and cantilevers which manufacturer  as well retipper buy by

Namiki or Ogura. JCarr mentioen ''levels of styli'' and cantilevers 

but those are also produced by the same Japanese Jewel companies.

Gyger is out of business so one can say that those have monopoly

position. Axel Schurholz, one of the best retipper, complained to me:

''the Japanese increased their prices with 100% without any consultation''.

So he was forced to increase his own prices and had difficulty to explain

his customer his price increase.  We can assume that the ''first level''

of styli are those which are used in '''most cases'' and also that a

retip with boron or sapphire cantilever + micro ridge stylus cost +

500 euro. I am not sure if this  ''operation'' can be called ''rebuild''

but this ''operation'' consist in gluing this combo in the joint pipe

(aka aluminum tube ) front side. Why should any manufacturer do

this better than an retipper . If manufacturer would do retips they

would need one extra employee for this job. But why should they

when they buy those complete by mentioned Jewel companies?

BTW ''a dead horse'''is not an ''descriptive name''  but an ''metaphor''..

The problem with metaphors is that everyone is entitled to his own

interpretation. If one has a clear thought he does not need metaphors

but express this thought in ordinary language. You obviously have

difficulty to express your thoughts clearly . Problem with linguistics and

logic?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Why should any manufacturer do this better than an retipper ."

Um, having all the jigs? Extensive specialized experience with one configuration? Knowing the exact part with was used originally? Buying a lot of 100 and keeping 2? Having a lot more to lose? Maybe all of these?

And please spare us the elementary philosophy. Others have read Frege.

 

**** Secondly, at no time would this information be concealed, it would be described correctly, Third Party Service Provider and Methods chosen, this would be revealed, whether during a demonstration or if the decision was made to sell.****

Absolutely true and unfortunately not always the case.  A lesson learned the hard way.  

Speaking of dead horses - 

My grandfather had one horse when he built his orchard from remote scrub during the Great Depression. The horse was very obstinate - often when required to cart fruit off to the market it would not move. On some occasions no incentives worked - kicking, whipping, he even lit a fire between its legs once - had to put the fire out.

Finally when the horse became elderly and quite distressed, my grandfather decided to put it out of its misery.

After tethering the horse to a fence, he spend hours digging a deep hole, deep enough to keep the wild dogs from digging it up. 

Pulling out the shotgun, with a heavy heart he shot the horse -unfortunately even in death the horse had the last say. It fell the wrong way.

 

@dover  Finally when the horse became elderly and quite distressed, my grandfather decided to put it out of its misery.

Your grandfather sounds like he was a very tolerant and forgiving man, in the circumstances. 

What an exceptionally dumb horse, though - perhaps it thought it was clever in enduring all those incentives simply to avoid the easy and common sense solution to occasionally trotting off to market.

Dear dover, We can use your ''dead horse'' as description for your

3 worn out styli which are ''rebuild'' by Dynavector for ''refreshement

price''. of, say, half the retail  price . This imply 50% of the just mentioned

price. While you should know that 30% is their usual ''profit margin ''.

As a former ''dealer'' you should know the prices. Well you could

also do ''only the stylus retip'' by Axel for, say, 200 euro. But , as

I mentioned by Marlene Ditrich , rich men or women are not well

''connected'' to the real world. There is also similar story about

Marie Antoinette who was wondering why people do not eat cookie

when they lack bread. You should ''keep your point'' by your

remark about economic and budget. BTW I assume they in (Dutch)

New Zeeland have TV? On the TV you can see the whole day 

Ads about prices. The not recognize terror on human kind. 

 

 

Those who make sarcastic comments on ''second hand English''

obviously have the illusion that the ''native speakers'' are able to

express their thoughts clearly. 

terry, Never seen an production line for cartridges? Those are imply

by AT story about ''selected  parts'' by ''selected technician'' in the

USA (aka Signet kinds) not Japan. AT 180, 170 and 160 don't

mention any such ''selection''. BTW in Frege's time there were

no retips.

terry , I am still waiting for your explanation  of identity without logic

and philosophy. In ordinary language that is. This way you can 

''spare us'' from ''elementary philosophy'' (your invention?) 

@nandric

I was speaking of high end cartridges, all or partially made by hand, not assembly line. As for assembly line cartridges, I do expect sample to sample variation, because of materials or tolerances - that is, serendipity.

I retired from teaching, so I have no obligation to correct you. Nevertheless, I can point you to a good reference, Thouless's 'Straight and Crooked Thinking'. It's quite accessible. Then try Wittgenstein's 'Blue and Brown Books', less accessible, but not too hard..

terry, ''elementary logic'' has this form: ''If P then p&q''

This means:  if the premise is true than also the deduced sentences p&q

But if ''P is not true neither are p&g''.

You  specify your Premise ''ex post''. In JCarr explanation you now

assume 3th of 4 th level styli and cantilevers. which are ordered by

either Ogura or Namiki. My (arbitrary line) was $3000. This is my

assumption about ( dover's) budget . What an ''average'' member

can pay for an cart.

So I deed provide my PREMISE IN ADVANCE but you deed not..

For ''my level'' of styli and cantilevers an retip with the combo is

+./- 500 euro. Stylus solo is not easy to find because this retip is

,ore difficult to do. This explanation I got from my friend Axel with

+ 40 years experience with cartridge repair. The combo is more

easy and also more expensive. He also got styli and cantilevers 

from either Ogura or Namiki. Think now again about my statement:

''why should an manufacturer do this job better''? 

 

Who cares about +15 K carts with 4th level (diamond) cantilevers

and ''gold plated'' styli (grin). 

Who cares about +15 K carts with 4th level (diamond) cantilevers

and ''gold plated'' styli (grin). 

Well obviously you do, because you seem obsessed with trying to delude yourself that retipping is the same as rebuilding.

You appear to be completely unaware, or unable to accept that if a cartridge is a few years old, then refurbishing should include checking the dampers, checking for any mechanical or electrical issues and addressing them at the same time.

You apparently have learnt nothing from JCarrs post above where he clearly explains that many of the cantilevers/styli can be unique or custom. configured for individual manufacturers.

My Dynavector Karat Nova 13D is a prime example. The cantilever and styli cannot be obtained from anyone other than Dyanvector. In fact I have seen on this forum a well known member trying to flog a Dynavector Karat Nova 13D off with a home-brew aftermarket cantilever. It was no longer a Dynavector Karat Nova 13D as designed ( and looked like a small dog with it's lipstick hanging out ).

It is none of your business what I pay for a manufacturers rebuild, but my decision on whether to rebuild is no different to anyone else

What is the cost of rebuild ?

Can I get a better cartridge for the same budget ?

It is very simple. Its called cost benefit analysis.

And contrary to your misplaced envy, no one needs to spend $1000's of dollars on a cartridge to get a great sound. Currently, despite having the Dynavecto Karat Nova 13D and Ikeda Kiwame ( both purchased new and as new ) I am currently enjoying my old Denon 103D ( bog standard, purchased new some years ago and not used much ). I'm still getting a better sound than most simply because of my system which has been carefully assembled over 30 years.

Don't take my word for it - here's what a visitor said who bought an old DD off me ( who has a Stereophile Class A TT  and several megabuck cartridges - 

https://darklantern.proboards.com/thread/721/direct-drive-thread

The guy I bought it from had one of the best systems I've ever heard, ever!

He had vintage Tannoys, a couple of turntables he demonstrated which I'd never heard of before and can't recall what make. But I do remember how realistic sounding his system was. It was absolutely fantastic and a sound I would love to be able to reproduce. 

I'm pretty sure both turntables were belt drives.  ::)  
 

I'll NEVER forget how that system sounded. So worth every penny. 

Must try to get an invite to have another listen. He was an Audioenz member but not sure if he's signed up here.

Good audio has nothing to do with price, its all about putting together a system properly integrated that is coherent, musical and transparent to source.

 

 

VERY well said, Dover.

Dear dover, what about your ''synthesis'': ''it comes down to economics

and budget'': 

 

terry, well done !

I got many advises. Here are my: 

Dover, more holy water from New Zeeland and much less  wine!

terrry, Your left brain side should tell the right side what either has

stated earlier.