I ran into similar trouble with a JRDG Model 5, the amp is more then 100lbs. and he chose to send it with about 3 pieces of peanut styrofoam, and a single ply cardboard box(not the original). I was not around and someone else signed for it and I am still dealing with this non-sense, since the end of July. It is really a shame, when someone claims they can ship the amp, and then they don't have a freaking clue what they are doing, I would not ship styrofoam in a package as poorly packaged as this amp was. So yes I feel your pain~Tim
USE Air conditioner, computer boxes or TV boxes. I prefer the Wega boxes ! And always double box ! Your local appliance store can usually help just throw the stockboy a buck or two and you will be set!
They are also great when you have to move. The downside though is all the space they take up. I have almost two full closets in audio boxes.
I have an attic crawl space above the garage and it is full of boxes. Even the toaster. I agree computer boxes work well, especially the monitor boxes.
Many OEM boxes are pretty poor also. I always add more foam at the very least, extra tape. Double box if heavy.
Yeah Sugar; that space above my garage is also cram packed with cardboard - mostly audio equipment boxes too. I even had to overflow into the basement...
You think the audio boxes take up room, try the box from my Loewe 32" 16:9 TV! The key is to break the big boxes down, then tape like mad if you need to reship. Also keep the styrofoam. The TV was shipped from Colorado, I think by BAX. The shipper used that plastic strapping (not tape, its a substitute for the thin steel banding formerly used). Both the box and the TV arrived fine. Even so, the attic over my garage is pretty full, esp with the Vandy boxes, 2 DVDs, 2 NHT subs, plus miscellaneous computer boxes. And yes, the monitor boxes are quite sturdy.
I had a 130lb amp arrive peeking out of the box. The amp runs fine and the cosmetic damage was repaired. Now if ups would just pay the claim I'd be home free.
Derek, NOW do you know why i packed the way that i did and made the statements that i did about filing claims and the hassle involved ??? : )
Sorry that the deal didn't work out, but you were completely justified in refusing the shipment. Nobody should have to pay for damaged / possibly damaged goods. The shipper will NOT be happy but that is his own fault. Live and learn. There's been more than enough threads about stuff like this on EVERY audio forum known to man ( and woman ). There is NO excuse for poorly packed equipment. Sean
PS... Good thing there were no snakes living in that box when you stuck your hand in there : )
I can't believe whoever sold it to you actually packaged and amp of that price in such shoddy confines. When I finally get something out the door I in no way want to see it back, and if it means that extra couple of bucks in packaging, I'll do it, if nothing else to give myself piece of mind and possibly saving a slight hassle. Hell, newspaper is always free and in abundance to supplement the styrofoam inserts and extra boxes aren't hard to find. Most shipping companies will tell you an item has to be able to withstand a 3 foot drop, since that's exactly how far it may be from one conveyor belt to the next. I can understand your disappointment with your purchase not being as expected, but the seller didn't do their end.
I have a different perspective on shipping, so let me explain. I've been involved with the trucking industry for most of my adult life, so let me tell you guys what happens. Some of the trucks & trailers have air ride, some don't. Some roads are good, some not. Sometimes the load is stable, sometimes it shifts. Get the picture? The guys on the dock are underpaid & overworked as are the people who load & unload off conveyor belts, planes, whatever. The packages get thrown, dropped, kicked, poked with forklifts, etc. Lots of good suggestions as to packing. The best way to ship is use the original box w/original packing AND THEN put it in another box with a barrier of at least 4" of packing peanuts. If original packing material is unavailable, bubble wrap the component then tape together some sturdy cardboard for a makeshift box THEN put it in a second box with the barrier of packing peanuts. Everything I've ever sent this way has arrived undamaged because I've seen what can happen with my own eyes. Always put "Live Animals" on your package for best results. No wait, I mean put "Fragile Handle With Care". Also put "This End Up". For very large items there are tip over alerts that use a variety of triggering mechanisms like a mercury switch w/glitter for example. The acid test is this: When you're done packing up said item, hold it three feet off the ground. Now drop it. Do you feel comfortable that it will survive the fall? Better, 'cause that's what's going to happen once it leaves your hands. One last thing. When I pack stuff to send Priority Mail, it's packed well enough to be thrown across the room & banked off the wall.
Sometimes you're just S.O.O.L. if the you buy the item used and it didn't come in the original packaging. That being the case, I went to MBE, had them box it up in bubble wrap, styrofoam, etc. but not double boxed. Sure enough, the unit was trashed when it got there. What I want to know is - How do you destroy a Tice Power block? I thought those things were virtually indestructible.
I've learned that anything that can be double boxed in styrofoam and grossly over-taped has a high chance of success.
Twice UPS has damaged near new speakers boxed in non original packaging. The corners always get crushed. I'll never ship big speakers again. Pick up or personal delivery , no shipping. I think I finally get the UPS insurance deal... original packing or no insurance.
UPS tried to deny my insurance claim on speakers whcih were shipped in original boxes. They said that the speakers were not properly packaged. Its odd that the speakers were origianlly shipped to the U. S. from England first to the distributor and then on to the dealer in those same boxes. the way they handle packages you just can't have enough boxes.
As I was walking out of my house to help the UPS guy with a TT, I watched in horror as the box, sealed with FRAGILE HANDLE WITH CARE tape (2" red letters) and hand marked "DO NOT TUMBLE) right next to the address, tumble it down the length of the truck. He said- all the boxes are marked fragile, we don't even notice it".
Another thing to remember; like physics. Place all weight (converted to kinetic energy) on the upper left corner of a box containing a 60lb speaker and dropped from the top of an 8 ft UPS van. Result: speaker mash. (Last year I had to order 4(!) sets of speakers to get one workable pair that were not reduced to gravel-all of these in original factory packing)
Suggestion: remember to use hard foam corner protectors inside the inner box. Peanuts ain't going to do it on a heavy object with square corners.
I suggest using UPS and letting them pack it. They offer a service where they put that expanding foam stuff around the item inside a heavy box. Yes, it will cost you about $15 to $20 depending on the size of the item but I've had very good luck with this. AND, they can't deny a damage claim for improper packing because they packed it. Those Mail Box stores offer the same service but their prices are much, much higher. I think it is cheap insurance.
Been there-- Been had by all of the above. First af all; because of the Jadis's extremely lopsided weight distribution,even the factory box ain't no guaranty; HOME MADE boxes--- the odds go down nill! Mr. "driver" nails it. To them they're just boxes that have to be moved. Some times the buyer whom is paying for shipping wants to keep the charges down.-- Big mistake!!I received 200 lbs ea.-- speakers, in the original wood crates. A fork lift tip nicked the pressed wood. The weight of the contents pushed the dent back out. --making the protusion near invisable-- or at least to me. I had signed; BAX Global said thanks for signing; tough luck!! Reminds me of the valet who damages your car;and hopes you don't notice. It is a contact sport;in more ways than one. OEM packing don't guaranty nothing;--less than that?--you're practically paying the shipper to damage your goods. (Get a cheap shipping rate).
A senior person at UPS told me a box loses 50% of its effectivness every time it is shipped. That is why is easy for them to claim improper packaging if the boxes aren't brand new.
I think that U.P.S. not paying for claims is a scam. They just assume, and they are right, that most people will just drop it saving them millions in claims.
There is such a thing as an implied warrenty. It says that if you hire someone to deliver a package it is IMPLIED that they will get it there without damaging it. I think that if all the rejected claims went to court they would loose ninety percent of them even with out insurance.
I think them not covering a claim with insurance is just a flat out rip off.
The U.P.S. office by me now cuts your box open and inspects the packaging. With all thats going on in the world right now Im not convinced they are checking your packing but I think they should do this everywhere. It cuts down on their lame excuses for not covering claims.
At least some signs or some type of effort on their part to educate customers in this area would at least help me beleive that their insurance isnt a scam.
How much money a year do you think they make off the insurance amone?
An amp like the Defy 7 should have been triple boxed with the tubes removed packed saperately. I am involved in the shipping industry and boxes should be packed TIGHT with foam AND bubble wrap around the component then boxed again with styrofoam lined between boxes.
I do not blame you for refusing the shipment due to the careless packing from the seller. Amp weighs 50-60 lbs and hey, a single thin walled box ain't going to make in to the conveyor belt!
I doubt FEDEX is going to pay for the claim as this was carelessly packed.
Lastly, do let us know the status of the claim.
UPS sucks. Worst Customer Service on earth, As for packing materials and boxes, I work for a Fortune 500 company in the consumer goods industry and we spend LOT of time and money designing boxes to minimize product damage during shipping. There are HUGE differences between boxes that look idnetical to the untrained eye. The boxes you get in specialty "repackaging" stores are crap. Low compression strenght stuff that will crumble when humidity gets high. OEM boxes are much better if you assume they have done their homework and picked the right board. As for the UPS claim that boxes lose a lot of their strenght afte they are first used...it depends. The biggest enemy is humidity. Boxes that soak up a lot of water in transit and/or storage WILL weakend, even after they dry out. But an OEM box with properly designed styrofoam cutout inside to protect the gear should be OK to reuse several times. Moat of the gear I own has impressive OEM packaging, thougn the nod goes to the wooden (real wood, NOT laminate or chipboard) crate w/ styrofoam pads used by Sonus Faber for my Guarneri's.
UPS is one of the worst run companies around. I had brand new speakers shipped to me with ALL of the box corners crushed, tattered and worn, holes poked in the boxes. UPS tells me, "Boxes are intended for one-time shipment and we do not pay for box damage." And believe me, they won't -- I tried to go up the chain of command and got nowhere. UPS has such stupid workers, that I am still trying, for 6 months, to get them to refund an overcharge due to the stupidity and incompetence of their counter people, who argued with me when I told them they were charging me more than the web site indicated. UPS can't even process a simple overcharge refund.
When I see ads with, "Don't have original box, but will have packaged professionally," I stay a million miles away. I don't understand how an audiophile in this hobby could be so naive and ignorant to trust a MBE to handle their item!
In response to "Driver", give me a break -- underpaid and overworked? These workers don't deserve the jobs they have -- like so many people today, they want big wages to perform a substandard job. It is part of their job not to "kick, drop, crush" packages as "Driver" admits they do, and seems to defend. If you don't like your job, get another one.
Well Kevziek, I'm not defending anybody's job to do it in a substandard manner. I'm stating facts. As to underworked & overpaid, would you do that job for $8.00 an hour? Out in the elements? Don't deserve the job they have? Maybe it's the only one they could get. I would never defend anybody's kicking, dropping, crushing or otherwise damaging your or my packages, or anybody else's. I'm stating what I know goes on and advising those who care to read the post what goes on and hopefully how to avoid damages.
BTW, UPS is no worse than any other freight handling company. They just handle more packages and (unfortunately) damage proportionally more. It's a crap shoot as to what condition an item will arrive in, but you stand a better chance from the outset if you pack it yourself following some of the proven methods. As for receiving items, when I buy from an individual I always express my concern about shipping & find out how the seller ships. I'll make suggestions if I feel they need to be made & have been very LUCKY so far.
Lastly, I'm sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with UPS. No, I'm not affiliated with them in any way & can offer no suggestions as how to effectively deal with your situation. Maybe somebody else can shed some light on this.
The only comment I have concerning UPS pay scale may be drawn from my delivery person. He had to wait for me to write a check one day and we got into one of our many discussions.
He was excited to get off this particular day because he was going to pick up the brand new Corvette he had special ordered.
I ask if he had rich parents or had won the Texas Lotto, and he said "No, they pay me pretty damn well."
I guess he could be lying, living in a cardboard box at the side of the road, or not eating, but knowing him as long as I have, I believe him and also believe he is doing that well.
The dock hands and OTR / Delivery drivers are paid on VERY different wage scales. The guys "beating" the packages are typically part time employees ( UPS does this to get around paying full scale benefits ). These are people that couldn't care any less about their job, personal pride and / or your package. Sean
I want to clarify something. Drivers and dock workers are paid different rates. I was referring to dock workers at $8.00 an hour. That's at the low end of the scale but does not go much beyond $12.00 an hour. The last time I checked, UPS's top driver wage was just above $22.00 an hour. I'm sure I'm in the ballpark with that.
Also there is a question of attitude. We've all had dealings at both ends of the scale. A low paid employee in a dead end job that gives you 110% and you're amazed at the quality of service. Then there's the supposed professional at $55.00 or $80.00 or more an hour that is an arrogant anal retentive incompetent and inefficient worker that thinks the world revolves around them. Of course, reverse these two positions and you see what I'm getting at.
As for the package, it just depends on who handles it. Like I said, it's a crap shoot. That's just the way it is.