generally a wall mounted TT shelf is prone to wall-induced vibrations because the entire wall acts as a sounding board & flexes right along with the music. This can become a serious enough degradation so as to even cause a vibrato / speed pulsation intermodulation effect. Wall mount TT shelves do work better on (brick) solid walls (exterior) etc.
I'm unsure if any kind of shelf would provide the relief required. Perhaps Symposium roller balls or some other type of bearing footer (Aurios MIB) might help to some degree. Maybe a flexing floating platform shelf such as Arcici? Or a magnetic floating or spring mount shelf, although that is all contrary to conventional mounting recommendations of rigid high mass platform & solid coupling to the floor on a rigid stand. For best results, check into an alternative TT support system (spiked floor mounted rack) if possible.
I ordered a Nueance platform for my cdp about 3 weeks ago. Ken was very responsive to my e-mails and spent about 75 minutes on the phone with me also. He has not taken any time off in quite awhile and told me he was going to take a couple of much needed vacation days, perhaps that's why you are not hearing from him. I'm not really a TT guy, but I did recently install my old Yamaha tt in my garage rig, which just happens to be wall mounted on a cheapo Home Depot shelf. The vibrations it was picking up were unbearable. So I threw a set of Daruma III's under it and it is mucho improved, albeit a little wobbly.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Ken at Neuance is GREAT to deal with ......... plus his product really works (at least under my SACD player).
I'm not posting much anymore regarding LP12 useage since the truth doesn't seem to matter much to Linn's detractors. I'm making an exception this time because I hate to see an honest question answered incorrectly. This is not an insult to any of the above posts as each has individual merit. My take on this is based on Linn LP12 ownership for nearly 30 years. The detractors are welcome to fire away. My shoulders may not be as muscular as they once were but they are still wide and can take it.
It's doubtful that the vibrations you are experiencing from your current wall mount shelf are reaching the stylus in the groove IF the table is adjusted correctly. The LP12 is a suspended table which by design decouples the record/cartridge combinations from vibrations down to around 8 cycles. If the suspension is out of adjustment, you are using a non-felt mat or any other tweak that couples the suspension/record like a clamp then you have altered the tables operating parameters to possible sonic degradation. I believe the Neuance shelf to be a reasonable upgrade.
Assuming your table is mounted on a shelf directly centered between your speakers and on a load bearing wall, low frequency vibrations of a sort that would reach the groove would need to come from heavy traffic of some type outside your home. Rear ported speakers or a subwoofer placed nearby are a real concern however, IMO. One way to check this out is to take the grill covers off your speakers, play a record and take note if there is any pumping of the woofers during play. If not, you're okay as is but I still support the use of the Neuance, but that's about the extent I'd go with. Please, trust your ears.
I know from experience that a high mass stand will work just fine with an LP12 on it so I'm not opposed to that method at all. In a practical sense though placing enough load from a rack onto a rickety floor to eliminate the bounce is a guessing game at best. Again, the biggest problems for the Linn are footfalls and rear ported speakers.
I've archived a number of setup and tweaking tips on the LP12 found online through the years. Email me direct if you would like me to forward them to you.
Thank you all so far for a further enlightenment to my conundrum. To add to my explanation of the current condition. My living room set up has Coincident Total Eclipse speakers three feet off the short wall of a 15'by 26' space. My Atma-Sphere mono blocks are located next to the speakers on stands with a six meter interconnect to my preamp, phono amp, and TT. The TT and shelf is located on a short, non load bearing (?) wall adjacent to the speakers. It is next to my listening chairs about six feet from the back wall. The home is of 1926 vintage with beautiful but unstable hardwood floors. The walls are originally plaster lathe and have had an additional layer of sheet rock bonded to them. All in all the room sounds nice. Maybe this info will help in understanding my room better as some of the most helpful responses were predicated on some assumptions due to my less than compete explanation. Thanks again and I look forward to any new ideas.
If your table isn't bothered by foot traffic now and the woofers exhibit no pumping then my advice stands. Beyond that, the short wall that the rack is on may need supports from below if possible. You are probably far enough away from the back corner with the turntable location to avoid bass build up problems.
That'a a great response from Lugnut. Cleared up a few points for me, like the lower limit of the vibration control of my LP12's suspension. Thanks Pat!
Just to add my 2 cents... a wall shelf is one of the best ways to mount a suspended TT, IF the wall is an outside, structural, load-bearing wall. Such a wall is coupled directly to the ground. My LP12 is mounted like this and you can slam the front door ( a few feet away behind an interior wall ) without the turntable noticing it.
RF Sayles, you've made it clear that your TT shelf is not mounted on such a wall. Your short wall may be coupled to the floor in that case, and if the floor is at all bouncy then low-frequency, seismic-type vibrations are reaching your TT's suspension and it cannot deal with these effectively. Really, nothing much can that I know of, although the roller bearings others mention might be something to try.
In my experience, if the floor is at all bouncy, a heavy floor-mounted support is not a viable alternative to a properly set up wall shelf. I once worked in a first-floor store which demo'ed TTs ( yes, long ago ) on a low brick wall. Real brick, and quite deep. The thing looked solid, but if you walked by with a heavy tread you could see ( and feel ) the whole wall oscillate very slowly up and down, at maybe 1 or 2 Hz. Lugnut's suggestion of a support pillar under your short wall ( down in the basement, if you're listening on the first floor ) makes excellent sense. Channel the load on the shelf down to the ground and you've got a sink for vibration.
Or you could just move the TT shelf to an outside wall, thus necessitating a rethink of everything else in the room as well... not an option, perhaps!
Finally, Linn's Trampolin suspension is said by some to be useful if your TT support transmits vibration, but others say it does not help the sound. I have removed mine, and I run my LP12 on a Target wall unit with the standard shelf and Audio Technica feet.
What a great post. You really stayed on point and gave great advice.
I understand exactly what you say about Linn detractors. I find the same thing with Krell products. I get tired of Krell bashers. I have tried many products, but find the Krell products that I have owned to produce the most musical sound (especially with my big B&W800's) that I have heard. I am using the sound that I get from listening to the SF Symphony where I sit 9th row center as my reference. During the last 18 years, I keep coming back to Krell. ... and the company is great to deal with.
Also, a note to R_f_sayles: My room is almost exactly the same size as yours and with my system, the sound is best with the speakers oriented along the long wall.
I use Neuance shelves under my Linn (on a rack) and under my CDP. I think it's a great product and an outstanding value.
I from time to time feel your pain on the "particular" equipment bashing. You know well enough, Krell/B&W800's is a amp/speaker match made in heaven. Great synergy there. I think people still under estimate the complexity of amp/speaker matching.
As for the long wall, I have an old marble fire place in the mix that nixes that. Israel Blume of Coincident recommends that the Total Eclipses be placed a minimum of 24 of the back wall, 48 apart, 8 from listener, and theyre 22 deep. So that doesnt leave a whole lot left. A little side note. My experience proves he's spot on.
I had 9th row just left of center seats at Detroit Symphony Hall for years, coincidently. Thanks for the remarks anyway.
Thanks for not letting the nah sayers stifle your comment. I don't know if I could be called a classic Linnie in that I love my tube amps. Ivor has the source handled for my analog and digital. I also have an Ikemi CD player and I like it very much. Linn undersold that deck imo.
As for the Lp12, Suspension is not out of adjustment, not using a non-felt mat or any other tweak that couples the suspension/record. No clamp.
I think Ill try the Neuance shelf and look to bolster up things in the basement under the wall. The thing is, the sound is pretty good. Its just when I touch the shelf it self, I feel quite a bit of resonance. That cant be good. Even if the table takes care of most of it. I just want to tweak out that last little bit! Thanks again
R f sayles,
I'm not a classic Linnie either with my tube preamp, a Supratek Syrah. Linn does so much right but their attitude with consumers, with fairly rare retailers being the exception, is abysmal. The Ikemi is a killer piece for the money, especially used. Life expectancy with Linn gear is phenominal.
I don't have the issues you are facing as I built my rack and it is placed on a concrete floor. One thing I did do when I was building the clone of the original Linn stand was place a piece of rigid fiberglass below the shelf the table sits on with an air gap between it and the shelf. I honestly don't know if this helped or not but it surely didn't hurt. It's the same material you can buy for hood insulation when restoring cars. This is something you may be able to do as well. It would at least keep the underside of the shelf from being attacked by air borne vibrations. At least that was my theory.
Perfectionist, Thanks for the heads up on Ken and Neuance. Summer is here and I can't blame a guy for getting out. I hope the Neuance works for you. I think I'll go ahead on one when Ken gets back. If it auditions good, under the CDP as well, maybe a second one. It will obviously be a while but, I will post my results for you and everyone else after I have had the time to evaluate things. I would be interested to hear what you think of yours. Cheers!
I'm doing the same thing, putting one under my cdp as a beta test. If it's good to go I'll probably put one under my preamp. If it doesn't work for me, up for sale it will go. The last one I saw for sale here sold the first day. At $190, it's hard to go wrong. I should be receiving mine around mid August, I will post an evaluation here after it's been in my system for awhile.
Be aware that each shelf is custom made to match the dimensions of the rack or whatever you are putting it on and the weight of the component it's meant to support.
Drubin, I am aware of the different level's of shelves. I am going with an "A" platform
which is 1 5/8" thick, supports up to 30lbs. and is sized to my specs to fit my cdp.
This is a platform, not a shelf, similar to a slab of b.b. which will then sit on a glass shelf.
Thanks to all for the helpful comments. I have connected with Ken at Neuance and he is well rested and building a shelf for me and my Sondek Lp12 as we speak. I will follow up on this thread how things work out once it shows up and gets fitted. Enjoy!
I received my Nueance platform that I ordered some time ago. It was sized to my Naim cdp, but it wasn't right for my system. The image was fuzzy and not clearly defined, bass was not as tight, and the pace seemed slower. I did a hardcore A/B between Aurios Pro's and the Nueance. The pro's proved to be superior in my system.
I am not dissing the Nueance, but again, it just wasn't right for my system.
How long did you let the platform settle before you did your A/B comparison? As noted by Neuance, it takes about a week to break in. "Fuzzy and not clearly defined," and loose bass are exactly what you'll get when the platform is newly installed.
Rex, it sat with cdp on it for a week before I gave it a listen.
Just drove back from Chicago today after seeing The Dead Can Dance closing their world tour at the Auditorium Theatre. That was beautiful! and guess what was on my door step? The new Neuance A platform. I have broke it out of the box and set my Lp12 Sondek on it. Now to wait for it to settle in and my remarks will follow. Cheers!
Perfectionist, How did you set up your platform? Spikes steel/brass? or did you try Aurios Pro's under platform or in between platform and deck?
I was instructed by the maker to place a heavy weight on the platform for several days before setting it up. I used a lot of books.
I then placed it on my wooden stand. I used the screw in points (obviously face up). I then placed my SACD player on the platform.
Tighter everything and a lot more air.
(He also told me that some people who wanted possibly more detail could add the DH ceramic cones between the platform and the player. I bought them before I tried the platform, but decided that I was happy with the platform as is. I also didn't want to have my SACD player on the three points...less stability. I never even took the new cones out of the box.)
Actually, three points is more stable than four.
If the entire unit were triangular, then three would be more stable, but, since my SACD player is not inside a stand, any pressure to the unsupported corners would tilt the unit.
why would you apply any pressure to an unsupported corner? If the 3 cones are positioned in wide triangle it is very difficult (tho I admit not impossible) to tilt the unit. Maybe if you sat on it : -)
Foster, I put little rubber footers on the bottom of the platform (like the one's one would put on the bottom of a remote control) per Ken's direction as the Nueance sat on a glass shelf. And ken said any iso device between component and Nueance would negate the benefits of the Nueance itself, but iso device under Nueance would be okay to do.
But Aurios and Nueance together would have been too tall for my rack, so I didn't try that combo. And relocating my cdp is not an option for me right now.
Again, I'm not saying the Nueance was a poor iso device, it just didn't work for me in my system.
Perhaps I should have given it more time...
Here is my take on Ken Lyons Neuance Platform 'A'.
First, I'll start by saying that like most components and cables there is a mandatory time needed for breaking in or settling, if you will. Too often we try to rush or just plain don't give a component the time to fit in. For me the wait has made all the difference and it has been just a little over a week.
The purpose of the Neuance Platform is to support a full-blown Linn Sondek Lp12 with Ittok LVII arm and Akiva cartridge. The set up I have is a wall mount rack of tubular steel with four adjustable steel points for the shelf. It is Italian in origin but it has been so long since my purchase (about 25 years ago) that I have no idea what the brand name is. Sufficed to say it resembles the Target single shelf rack or many others with one exception and that is that the steel tubular frame does not surround the shelf panel. It resides on a short interior wall of plaster wood lath (circa 1926) adjacent to the back wall of the speakers. For reference: I am running Coincident Total Eclipses with Atma-Sphere MA-1 Silver edition mono blocks, fronted by Aesthetix Calypso and Rhea.
My first impressions of the Platform during the week or so after it arrived by post was a sense of thick muddy bass, incoherent detail, and time smearing throughout the sound stage. Well, that was to be expected, as it had not settled. Not so amazingly, none of those less than audiophile characteristics exist now. As it found its feet I challenged it to some of my familiar vinyl favorites and some new releases. The Neuance Platform was superior to the MDF shelf material that my TT had been sitting on for many years. Showing no recognizable signature of its own. Its ability to let the TT extract detail without interference from my listening room vibrations was most impressive. The coherence of pace and timbre where spot on. Overall, I noticed a great sense of dynamics and air between acoustic instruments and voices that as it turns out was a huge step forward from my previous set up. As Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn prescribes this table requires a lightweight, very ridged shelf for the best performance and the Neuance Platform adeptly offers that. A devise that couples mass and density is a big mistake in this application. I have not but fully intend on auditioning this platform under my CDP with soft footers (below the Neuance) as recommended by Ken to see if I reap equal sonic improvements. If so, and I feel confident it will prove worthy of an additional order. IMHO I would unequivocally recommend this platform to suspension turntable owners for its not so subtle benefits.
There are few bargains in High Fidelity. Dont tell Ken Lyons, but at this price point, his platforms are definitely one of them. Happy listening!
Opps! big apologies to Ken for my mistake! His last name is Lyon with no 's'. Sorry
Yikes! I guess I cant count my days or spell the word rigid either! Sorry
It's pretty kewl,ain't it?
Thank you for sharing your observations.
I'm quite proud of my baby, so it's always nice to find that others appreciate it as well.
btw- what you have there is an Archi-dee wall support.Hang onto it- it's a keeper.
Ok, So I finally got around to checking out the Neuance Platform under the Linn Ikemi CDP for an extended length of time. The first thing I noticed in seconds after starting up the CDP was the similarities between what the platform did for my Linn TT and now the deck, WoW nice. Previously the CDP was on a Black Diamond Racing shelf and I thought it sounded great and it did. The BDR shelf kept out most all the nastiness of vibration and did an excellent job. In contrast the Neuance sounds a little less black and reveals a bit better timbre and pace in the music I felt. It has a little bit lighter feel and I like it so well I will be ordering an additional platform soon.
The CDP application is different than that of the TT setup in that the platform ended up on four small Bright star Isonode feet on top of a solid teak cabinet. After trying numerous other things such as cones, spikes, and other footers this compo sounded best to my ears. IMHO the use of the Neuance Platforms is a no-brainer Ken is a very smart fellow and has sorted out a nice sounding versatile product here and again I will sing it a great praise.
Unfortunately, it will be a while until I can move the platform(s) under the Aesthetix Calypso and Rhea as I have just recently employed Aurios Classic Isolation Bearings underneath these chassis with excellent results (one could say Im still getting my bearing with these, sound wise. Couldnt resist!) and because like all good things the platforms take a while to manufacture as they are all precision made by Kens hands, so for now Im done tweaking (well
fat chance of that). Happy listening!