I say you're going the opposite way you should be going. None of these new production tubes can match tubes from the 50's and 60's. You'll never live long enough to find out, but your new Russian or Chinese tubes will not be around 50-60 years after you buy them and use them that long. Vacuum tubes are definitely one product that proves the old adage "they don't make them like they used to." There are many articles by tube experts you can search for that say the same thing with regard to new vs NOS tubes whether they are output tubes or small signal tubes. New production just doesn't measure up. And, of course, there are a few who say they do. The consensus is that the old ones are far superior in every way.
Old Legendary tubes vs New Kids on the block Amperex/Siemens/Tele vs Psvane/TAD/Shugaung
Posting this on amps board, as pre tubes can make quite a dif on the amp ound.
I just sent off all my oldstock tubes to a guy who will sell them for me on ebay,,I am going all ~New kids on the block~ pre tubes.
I am saying goodbye to my fav~ Amperex BB.s
The only old stock i am keeping are the 2 tall bottle SQ Philips EC180's which will go in the AU section of the Defy,,i love the cool looking tall bottle of the EC180,'s, But i also bought some Psvane Au's , a sthey look quite impressive with taht double plate at the top,,,Will add some TAD AU's also on wish list, they also have thae cool looking double plate./high tech components.
I will roll the 3 labs, and see wich has the finer resolution/soundstage.
The 4 AX's will have to be the Shugaung, Maybe later on will add the TAD.
The cayin cd17 takes 4 6922's, for those I will go TAD, as they have the cool looking double plates.
Which brings up this Q...will the old legends hold their top $ prices going forward, as folks begin cking out the new labs offerings,
Psvane/Shugaung/TAD.
I've not heard any of the new, as yet, I have the AU's/AX's arriving later this week. Since i sent all my old stock au/ax's off, can't compare to these new labs. Only compare from what i reacll the Defy sounding like with Old stock.
However as you guys know i still have that cheap chinese clone which is crippling the Defy's performance.
The cayin SC6 is still a ways off, so a true compare could only be made at that time.
The cayin has 4 AU's, will roll both TAD and Psvane T series AU's. , Psvane has a new ax out called T series,,,I will buy both the Psvane and the TAD, see which comes out for high resolution of fq's.
Have you guys heard any of these newer labs, vs the old legends.
On the power tubes, I have EH KT90's and also chinese KT88's i bought cheap off ebay,,so will roll those when the front tubes arrive.
Will not rebias the amp,,it will be a justa shortb 10 minute testing.
If I like the 88's over the EH90's,,I will add the Psvane KT88 C version to wish list, The C version is the newer KT88 from Psvane called the Classic 88, the older version is called the hifi 88.
I will post notes over the comming year as these tests will be ongoing during the year 2020.
What say you about these new kids on the block?
I just sent off all my oldstock tubes to a guy who will sell them for me on ebay,,I am going all ~New kids on the block~ pre tubes.
I am saying goodbye to my fav~ Amperex BB.s
The only old stock i am keeping are the 2 tall bottle SQ Philips EC180's which will go in the AU section of the Defy,,i love the cool looking tall bottle of the EC180,'s, But i also bought some Psvane Au's , a sthey look quite impressive with taht double plate at the top,,,Will add some TAD AU's also on wish list, they also have thae cool looking double plate./high tech components.
I will roll the 3 labs, and see wich has the finer resolution/soundstage.
The 4 AX's will have to be the Shugaung, Maybe later on will add the TAD.
The cayin cd17 takes 4 6922's, for those I will go TAD, as they have the cool looking double plates.
Which brings up this Q...will the old legends hold their top $ prices going forward, as folks begin cking out the new labs offerings,
Psvane/Shugaung/TAD.
I've not heard any of the new, as yet, I have the AU's/AX's arriving later this week. Since i sent all my old stock au/ax's off, can't compare to these new labs. Only compare from what i reacll the Defy sounding like with Old stock.
However as you guys know i still have that cheap chinese clone which is crippling the Defy's performance.
The cayin SC6 is still a ways off, so a true compare could only be made at that time.
The cayin has 4 AU's, will roll both TAD and Psvane T series AU's. , Psvane has a new ax out called T series,,,I will buy both the Psvane and the TAD, see which comes out for high resolution of fq's.
Have you guys heard any of these newer labs, vs the old legends.
On the power tubes, I have EH KT90's and also chinese KT88's i bought cheap off ebay,,so will roll those when the front tubes arrive.
Will not rebias the amp,,it will be a justa shortb 10 minute testing.
If I like the 88's over the EH90's,,I will add the Psvane KT88 C version to wish list, The C version is the newer KT88 from Psvane called the Classic 88, the older version is called the hifi 88.
I will post notes over the comming year as these tests will be ongoing during the year 2020.
What say you about these new kids on the block?
59 responses Add your response
In most case, I will stick to Nos tubes, but the problem is the availability of tubes in good condition. But I had been impressed with Psavne Acme 805 and 300B tubes which had been working fine for 800 hours since Jan this year in my Line Magnetic 508 amp. I have WE 300B made in 1940’s. Psavne Acme 300B tube sounds sweeter than Nos WE 300B while latter give wider soundstage and tighter bass. |
@shkongInteresting post, OK so you've heard both and prefer NOS. I have yet to hear the Psvane and Shuganug ,,Both new production look really nice, and although not cheap (paid $150/ four 12AX7's/Shugaung,,,at least i know they are new. From ebay listings on the NOS,,i can not understand all the testing values. nor make sense of what they claimn,,i do not want old worn out tubes. With new production, you can rest assured they are new. The amperex BB's that i like in orginal boxes, with full print are $$$$$$$, = not buying. So please further explain what you hear in the Psvane Acme 300 B *sweeter* vs the WE NOS *wider soundstage...I know its hard to express certain qualities in tubes. also we all need to keep in mind, the old rule,,what you love in one tube, lacks a certain quality of another. Also what kind of muisc are we talkimng about. I love full orchestra and needa system/tube which can bring the orch to full , dynamic sound. any amp can reproduce jazz, chamber classical,,but we know the 300B/845 offers the finest sound for jazz with a FR speaker system,,maybea horn also,,I never went for horn;'s. 300B's on light jazz is phenomenal , but complex full range orchestra, it falls flat. I presume a 300B tube and a 845/805 do not respond well to alot of fq's comming at them. Whereas my Defy 7 with 12 power tubes, has no problem at all in whatever muisc. Back to tubes. Will be interesting if the latest Psvane/Shugaung geta reputation, might drive NOS prices down to reasonable prices. Siemens//Tele/Amperex NOS prices are way out of my budget. |
In my opinion, PSVANE is the cleanest and highest resolution tube you can get. Very clean, like solid state circuits, but without any harshness. Probably like a much better version of Electro-Harmonix. Shuguang is very nice, but has a warm textured coloring to the sound. It really depends on your tastes. i think the real “select” Amperex are likely the most magic sounding tube, but like you said, insanely expensive. |
will take a few months to get some ideas about the dif makers of tubes. I am experiementing with dif tubes that might work in the AX section. Such as 12bz7 and maybe 12bh7 The E80CC blows away all AU’s ever made. fact is The E80CC is ~~The Holy Grail~~~ of all AU’s. Tele/Siemens AU is near worthless next to any E80CC. now working on finding the ~~Holy Grail~~ of all AX's. I am trying to bring audiophile into the 21st century, stripped clean of all snakeoil Its a 2 year projected plan ahead. The only thing holding back completion is ~~Funding~~~ |
Jackd, I am glad you have a nice supply of vintage tubes. And envy the fact that you picked them up two decades ago so you have a good Supply. But I'm curious what experience you have with the new production tubes to be sure that your opinion is based on fact and experience? I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I'm sincerely asking the question. Have you tried the new production tubes? As a 6sn7 addict I've read a lot of threads where people have gradually come around to really appreciating the new production Chinese tubes. And saying in some cases that they prefer them to the New Old Stock tubes. |
jmolsberg - Thanks for that. I notice your reference to the shuguang WE6SN7. What tone are you getting from this tube? I like a balanced tone. Maybe tending towards *rich*. Or phat. I suppose that translates into a fully-fleshed-out midrange. But I don't want a sloppy midbase or deep base. I'm sensitive to annoying treble, but my 66-year old hearing begins to fall off above about 8000-9000 Hz... |
WEll true, cool looking Shu does not equate to superior sounding, I now havea few mods completed, My biwire Thor Speakers now employ TWO separate wires to each speaker post, One Sterling Silver/insu PLUS ONE copper strand/insul = sixteen speaker wires total Not sure how much equated in fq resolution gain, as when i was making this mod, I sadly noted that one the left channel, wires were ~~Crisscrossed~~ that is to say, on the tweet of the MTM Thors, the black went to bottom post of the bi and the red went to top post of bi = completely mixed up....so who can say the sound is superior due to correction of criss crossed wiring, or the added Sterling Silver line to each post??? as now the system is really hi fidelity. There was high distortion going on, which i attributed to the poor build of the Lite LS9,,which was a grave error on my judgement. The Lite LS9 although not a true Jadis 200 pre, does perform very well, almosta keeper, also I swaped out the NOS tall E191CC's/amperex/beckman/ for the stock 12AT7's EH which came with the pre. Far superior the stock EH's to the 7062 NOS tubes https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_7062.html I should add, the EH AT's have more ~~body~~but lack the super quiet lower gain/forwardness of the E181's. But after further consideration, the details of the muisc can be noted much more clearly in the stock EH AT's. So although a replacement for AT's, the E181 lacks a finesse which the shorter but wider body 12AT7. My shoot out with AX's vs 12BZ7's , went down like this In one very quick shot, the AX's blew away the 12BZ7's as a sub for the AX in the Defy. = Not a sub for the superior AX, lets put that notion to rest. Now with wires crossed correctly and each wire biwired (+ 16 wires total silver/copper) and new Discrete Opamps employed in cayin + 12AT7's back in their saddles + the far superior E80CC vs the crappy AU's performance, in the front 2 slots on the Defy 7 WE are now ready fora shoot out twix the AX's. China /Shugaung T series vs USA/RCA tall black plates vs Holland/Philips miniwatt = amperex BB's (same tube) vs Germany/ Siemens (No UK/Mullards , as i hate british warm sounding engineering/amps/speakers and I assume their tubes are of this muddy sound as well). IMHO all will shoot equally = miniscle dif = a NOS AX is a NOS AX. But then I could be wrong. btw, i want to also try the Baldwin/Wertlizer AX's, as these were specially chosen for high quality perforamnce for Organs. However the Baldwin/Wertlizer seems to be made by RCA. I have a bunch of AX's arriving later this week to complete this testing. |
-markus I prefer a neutral sound with an emphasis on speed and soundstage. The shuguang we6sn7 in the LTA sounds clear and clean, with defined bass. In my experience they sound similar to the NOS but bigger sounding. I could easily live with either but they have shown to be perfectly capable. On the flip-side, I have not had success with psvane 9 pin input tubes like I have with NOS. |
All today's expensive tube gear (ARC, McIntosh, Luxman, Jadis, CJ ...) come with current production tubes!That is due to the fact that manufactures need a source of currently available reliable tubes. People seek NOS to fine tube their equipment base on their specific taste and system requirements. |
Aren't Psvane and Shugaung the same OEM manufacturer? You can read the history of Psvane here: http://psvanetube.com/site/who-is-psvane/ |
My two cents: I have tried several brands of KT88’s in my VAC Phi 200’s and have come full circle back to the Shuguang Gold Aero’s that the VAC’s came with. Very elegant, musical sound with great resolution, superb sound staging and zero fatigue. I also still have the factory Shuguang 6SN7’s which seem to be nice, too! While I haven’t tried NOS tubes yet in these amps, I am confident that VAC is pretty particular about the tubes they use. Plus, their cost is reasonable. I have used some NOS preamp tubes in my ARC SP-10 and my CAT SL1 Signature. British Mullards and German Telefunkens. They certainly are quiet, clear and non-microphonic. Maybe better. I’m not sure. |
I have a Phi 200 also and I dont use any old stock tubes in this unit. NOS KT88s are stupidly expensive and I have found that rolling the driver tubes usually has more influence on the sound. However, Kevin of VAC swears that you need a matched quad of 6SN7s so I use the stock tubes out of laziness. I do use old stock in my line stage, DAC and some of my other amps. |
Shu GA Looks awefully nice,,,but out my budget atnthe moment,,will have to stay with 1990's Shugaung labeled ARC. The Defy takes 12, = huge financial decision. But will consider https://tubedatabase.co/tubes/gold-aero-kt88 Shu WE6SN7 Sweet, and my guess competes with NOS https://www.ebay.com/i/293397411041?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=293397411041&targetid=596465759468&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9025123&poi=&campaignid=6470636538&mkgroupid=81597521470&rlsatarget=aud-622524040958:pla-596465759468&abcId=1140476&merchantid=101678628&gclid=CjwKCAiAu9vwBRAEEiwAzvjq-44USXq61h4O1PlFAWFTXhnjDbxpJiqcXZNH-GKiSycSVV-8yiSnXRoC6gAQAvD_BwE |
OK just got back from looking at ebay’s listings for Shugaung KT88 ~~~Rediculous~~~ Snakeoil Also noted some so aclled ~~Gold lions~~~ one crazy listing has like $5K /quad. ,,No no no, A KT88 is a KT88 is KT**. Miniscule dif. As another member noted well, ~~~The heat and soul ofa amp is in the preamp, AU section. . The Defy came to life when I added the E80CC.s But I have to confess, running criss crossed speakers wires to the Thor’s tweet (1 black to the mid woofers, 1 red to the wteet= i had no idea what was going on), I decided i will not ~~upgrade~~~ the KT88’s from my current Shu KT88’s , madev for ARC/1990’s, to any other KT88, as all the KT88 listings are overpriced. Shugaung is using snakeoil to push their ~~Super KT88’s~~~. Blind testing, no one could determine which Shugaung is in the amp. I’d rather take ~~tube upgrade $$$~ and put the cash into recap the Jadis with M SGO. = a super mod vs a tube upgrade MINI-mod EDIT~~~~ OK just got back from cking Psvane KT88's, the CLASSIC Model, their lowest priced KT88's. At 1st glance I was impressed with the build,,so i walked back to my Defy 7 to ck the Shu KT88 build. Appears ~~~Identical~~ = no reason to ~~Upgrade~~, and Psvane also offers ~~Upgraded KT88's for more cash... = Snakeoil. My goal is to expose fraud, scams, lies, false beliefs/opinions which have plagued the audiophiles minds with hype these past 40 years. Once the AX's arrive this week, I will do a shoot out with several labs tubes. I will make a video late sunday night and will post the link here. |
Hi mark I like this word, ~~Unobtainium~~~ Not sure what the potential of the Defy7 really is...how to max the design of this ~~esoteric amplifier~~~. The New jadis Defy 100 replaces the Defy7, I think its ugly vs the sblime design of the Defy7. So yeah, 'cayin cd17 mark1, the Mark 2 looks very close design, added a rectifier tube. , near same price as what i piad back in 2004. Seas Thors , kit from Madisound , back in,,,,2003ish. Then we have the clone jadis pre, Lite LS9, has 6 AT's, and several other tubes. After listening to several YT vids with the KT120's, not for me, its too forward, The KT88's offer tons of power and clarity. I think its a bit ofa gimmick the KT120's. at least for home audiophile needs. I'm bidding on a lot of 6 Tele AX's, ends in 5 minutes,,gotta run..... |
This would be a good time for reviewing the long out of print magazine "Vacuum Tube Valley" (last issue published in 2003 due to the untimely death of the publisher Charlie Kittleson). http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/vtv.htm Particularly check issues #1, #14 for detailed articles about 12AX7 and issue #3, #8 for articles about 300B. Nearly all the common (and some not so common) vacuum tubes used in audio applications are reviewed in depth, both NOS and new (up to 2003) manufacture. They are PDF files and can be easily downloaded and printed if desired. d. |
Great find, VERY VALUABLE Thanks http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/VTV14.pdf My link brought me right back to your link, I had to google Pioneering Magazine 12AX and was brought to audiokarma's topic, which gave a link to get to the article. |
Someone noted above that all new tube audio equipment comes with current production tubes. That is because if the manufacturer used NOS tubes the unit would cost hundreds more than it does. The only tubes currently being made are either from Russia or China. My amp came with 8 tubes made by Electro Harmonics; they probably cost the amp maker maybe 80 dollars. The 8 tubes I now have in my amp cost me about a thousand dollars. And some of them are nearly as old as me; 65 years. Those 8 tubes have been in the amp for over seven years. |
I just wanted to say that I think this is a great thread. Here's the reason, and that is that there is a very wide range of experience with tubes on this board. And this is a good opportunity for those who have more experience to shed their no kidding experience with those of us who might be relatively new to tubes. 50 years ago I was running an eico st-70. Then about 40 years ago I switched over to a luxman solid-state. Then about 30 years ago I switched over to Naim equipment. Then there was a time about 15 years ago when I switched over to a dynaco st-70. But I was using a solid-state preamp. Now I'm using the supratek Cortese all tube preamp. And I think it's totally awesome. But I don't have much experience with tubes, or rolling tubes. It's something I'm fascinated with but I don't really have the experience that some of you guys have. So This Thread is really good for somebody whose relative newcomer like me. |
well folks, the shoot out has commenced. Just preliminary testing has shown The Shugaung New T Series AX ( $75/pair) *New Kids On the Block* have not stood up to SYLVANIA AX's The Sylvania AX's have not stood up to the 1 Sylvania + 1 RCA tall black plate. (waiting for a bunch of RCA's to arrive early next week , and employ a pair in one channel) Now i have the PHILIPS MINIWATTS /AX I am in the middle of this shootout twix RCA Black plates and Philips Mini watts. can not complete testing until another RCA arrives. From preliminary testing, The RCA's will beat out the Philips,,I have 7 pairs of Philips Miniwatts, and will test 3 pairs vs a full pair of RCA's, Will also make sure the testing is fair, by switching the 2 tubes, to left and right channel, just in case the recordings are UNBLANCED, My hunch tells me the RCA Black Plates will top the Philips (= Amperex) AX's. But to be fair, I need more time. We are talking of slight nuances, and so all these tests are minisclue. I look forward to the Siemens which arrive next week. The Teles doubt will ever own, as my tube budget is now bankrupt. I am sure they are nice, but the german made Siemens will be equal. Tiny nuances but they are real. There is indeed a resolution variation twix NOS AX7's. I've heard about the RCA's reputation, and now i am a believer, but need more testing to confirm my faith. Basiclly it will come down to Siemens vs RCA tall black plates. There are rumors the 1950's RCA are superior to later issues ,,,I am not so sure about that. The *Holy Grail* deal to me is snakeoil. well let me go pay for all my winning bids...... |
Gosh, seems I cannot directly copy and paste the jumpjet URL for the VTV PDFs. Sorry everyone. Try this: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0414/vacuum_tube_valley.htm or: https://web.archive.org/web/20130604042043/http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/vtv.htm |
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To save everyone from searching through the 20 issues of "Vacuum Tube Valley", I'll list some of the better known types used in audio applications. 12AX7/ECC83 VTV #1, #14 300B VTV #3, #8 (EL84 also in this issue) EL34 VTV #2 6L6 VTV #4, #13 6550/KT88 VTV #6, #19 6DJ8 VTV #7 845 VTV #9 6V6, 6AV5 VTV #10 6SN7 VTV #11 2A3 VTV #12 45 VTV #15 12BH7 (and other miniature dual triodes used as vertical oscillator/output in TV sets that have found application in audio) VTV #16 (Under the heading "Dumpster Tubes" by Eric Barbour) Rectifiers for audio VTV #17 7591 VTV #20 |
A lot of tubes has been told here. I could add to the subject a lot but please consider that tubes replacement is just a part of the story. How surprised I was when McIntosh C1100 with stock JJ tubes kicked ass to the bottom for all known to me NOS fed preamps. It gave me a lot of to think about. Sometimes hardware exchange is a way better solution prior to tubs upgrade. Hey, i am not saying that i will not upgrade my tubes someday but so far I see no reason to. thx, m |
I have copies of the entire Vacuum Tube Valley set. My amp uses EL34 output tubes and VTV declares the 80's vintage Tesla to be the best. I disagree and prefer the Holland made EL34 with the twin "D" getters; these could be branded Amperex, RCA, Dynaco, or even Mullard even though Mullard and Amperex were in competition. Siemens never made an EL34; all EL34's labeled Siemens were made by someone else. I've used the original Chinese tubes, the new issue Gold Lion KT77, and the vintage Tesla (not JJ) and to my ear the Holland made EL34 sounds best. Always longed to have a quad of the original Genalex KT77's but these are so rare and expensive they're not really an option for me. |
I have the Shu T series AX ($75 pair), even the humble Sylvania's beat out the Shu's T series AX's. ~~~Burn in ~~~ theory i already exposed throughly as <<<100% snakeoil>> I will ck out the Shu Blacks. But honestly, if the Shu blacks were as good to compete with the german tubes (Tele = Siemens, = same resolution). why are we not seeing mention of Shu blacks. Let me take a look, ,,be right back..... well here i founda discussion of the new kids on the block Psvane/Shu Black LSAX7's, Note carefully that sandand glass asks directly to Josh, the author of the topic<<<<How do they compare to MOS Siemens/Teles??> Josh does NOT give a direct , based on experience/tube roll comment>>> Its all hear say, Not bbased on realexperience, sandandgalss has his <<,Doubts>> about chinese tubes superior to Tele/Siemens..which i also have my doubts, based on my purchases of Psvane AU and Shu T series AX's. No, ain't buying. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-psvane-12ax7-prototypes.632179/ what i am attempting to do here in this topic is to bring experienced based opinions on how the tubes compare to each other,,I made another test of the USED (paid NOS price from a swiss seller, in negotiation on part refund) The Philips USED Miniwatts, lacka certain base line which i distinctly hear in the channel with 1 Humble USA made Sylvania + 1 famous RCA black plates,,I think the 1 RCA tall black plate is carrying the day, more than the Sylavnia,,= that test is not as accurate as witha pair of RCA/tall blacks,,have 4 or 5 RCA black/tall arriving next week, I should not have mentioned the Philips Miniwatts (= amperex, same tube), was defeated by the RCA, as i need to sekll the 7 pairs i bought on ebay,,,trying to get at least what i paid. had them tested, NOT NOS/NIS, = USED = <<Good>>> I tell you the old yubes NOS are going to get real scarce , real soon. = prices are going to get loco. |
I did not recommend the T series only the black 12AX7LS (from Grant Fidelity). I did find they sound best in the phono stage but I replaced Teles in buffer and driver stages too. I've been rolling since the 80s so take it or leave it. Don't confuse using the term "burn in" associated with cables, springs, or neoprene gaskets with what happens to electronics especially tubes which literally do burn in. Just think; in a few days your opinion has gone from dumping your NOS to declaring they're the best! |
When you say *pinched* how does this translate in terms of muisc? *glassy*? I try to listen for how the dif instruments/vocals are presented. Is the drum symbols rolled off? bass guitar lines, weak vs strong? another thing is this. How strong is the NOS tube? I have 14 Philips miniwatt, seller claims all NOS, my friend cked on his equip, found all ~~USED~~~. Not sure who to believe. But if the Philips are average and the Sylvania/RCA are NOS/strong,,,then this might explain the weakness in the base line guitar of the Philips AX's. ... This is the problem with NOS, who can be sure what strength the tube really is/ I look at the pins, if i see wear and tear, i know it has been used and not interested. |