Wow. How does the Playback Designs accomplish what apparently other players cannot? What is the difference or new innovation in a technical sense? The designer must be doing something special or unique? |
I'm not convinced that there is a best.
I suspect very high end CD players may just reassemble the bits in unique ways that helps differentiate the resulting sound and justify the price, but I'm not sure that any of these variations are necessarily better or more correct overall than others...just different.
There is only so many bits on a CD. IT doesn't cost a fortune in my opinion to build a CD player capable of reading most of them correctly without loss (computer cd drives do this all the time) and then use them to correctly construct the analog waveform needed prior to hitting the amp. |
Kops,
I heard the $20000 dcs Puccini at a dealer recently.
It sounded as good as anything I've heard probably, but can you explain to me what exactly the dcs Puccini does better than say good players in the <$5000 range that justifies the cost? Also, how does it accomplish it?
Thanks. |
DcStep,
Unfortunately, I did not have enough time to do any comparative listening to determine whether the Puccini did anything extra special for certain. Also, I am highly skeptical that anything new or earth shattering is still happening at the high price points in regards to CD playback that really matters.
The thing is for $20000, I expected the dealer could give me something concrete to justify the cost of the Puccini in terms of what made it sound better than others. I mean he gave standard justification in terms of using "only the best parts" and all, and it was obviously built very well and very stylish, but he would not offer me anything concrete in terms of a technical explanation of how this mattered to produce better sound. Once he determined that I was a computer systems engineer, he really backed down from trying to explain anything.
THe rest of the system was very high end tube tube amplification and the Magico Mini 2s with all high end Nordost cables (probably over $100000 in the system total).
The thing that struck me was the smoothness and fine detail of the presentation of the massed violins and violas in a symphonic work which was very lifelike. I'm curious how much the Pucinni contributed to the overall result. I did not get to listen to enough material to listen more critically.
I'd be interested if anyone has a/b listened to the Puccini and any other more affordable units and could offer some insight regarding the differences, if any.
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Dcstep,
My question is not about what specific parts do, that really doesn't matter, its what does the product as a whole do to justify the cost?
Is there any specification or measurement or measurements available that can be used to quantitatively identify when a CD is performing above and beyond? For example, what does a billet aircraft aluminum chasis do to improve the sound? How can the improvement be measured? Or is it just a matter of throwing the kitchen sink into the build at all costs and charging accordingly?
I have no doubts that a phono system cannot be overengineered for example because a phono pickup is sensitive to vibrations and subject to certain laws of physics in order to perform optimally.
A CD players job is to capture all the bits of a disc and convert it to an analog waveform and then deliver the analog output to the next device downstream, usually a pre-amp. THe bits are either detected or not. You either get them all or some % of what is there. Does it take a $20000 CD player to get them all? Does the $20000 CD player do a better job of producing the resulting waveform more accurately or does it provide some flavor or coloration that makes it sound unique, if not better? If so ,why?
I generally will make an investment if needed to produce better results in my system. I probably just need to spend more time auditioning some of the better players ideally in my system to see if it can make a difference the way I know for example that a phono setup can.
My gut feel is that there is an absolute limit to the sound quality possible with CD format and that after 20 years of commercial application the cost of achieving it should not be so high.
I suspect that spending too much here is overkill, but I am anxious to be convinced otherwise. |
Dcstep, thanks for the info.
My ears tell me that no two cd players sound the same. I have it in my plans to give some higher end players a listen over time and see what I hear and go from there. I think the CD is probably the place where I might find a good upgrade/improvement if I look hard.
Are you running a new CD player in your system other than the Pioneer listed in your published system here on Agon?? |
Kops,
Yep, the only way to know if an investment like that is worth it is to listen on the target system in the target room.
Ironic isn't it that we discuss subtleties of high end audio in a place where we can't really listen to a darn thing? |
Larryi,
You're scaring me. Are you saying that some premium manufacturers charge a premium for older digital CD technology because older CD digital technology is better?
I love antiques myself. Antique technology may hold value for historical and collectible reasons but when someone tells me that older digital technology is inherently better than newer digital technology, something doesn't sound right.
From my equipment and listening experience, I believe that most common stock CD players today are way better than high end players from 10 years back or more.
Though any digital format, like CD, must have some inherent technical limits, whether realized in practice or not, digital playback is one area that should continually benefit from new technology innovations and the cost benefits that come from marketing successful new technology products over time.
Multi-format DVD players are perhaps more popular than CDs these days. Perhaps that is where the current advancements are occurring most rapidly and catching up or perhaps even surpassing that of pure CD players?
Very interesting topic and discussion, by the way! |
Guys, I'll withhold judgment on sonic merits of specific high end players until I do some more listening, but I must confess all the talk about some of these vendors using older, scarce chips is a big red warning flag to me.
If I drop a small fortune on a player, I want to be assured that parts exist and it can be kept running indefinitely. I would probably also expect a pretty decent warranty?
Also, I've noticed that many recent ultra high end players listed here on Agon seem to go for much less than originally paid for whatever reason, so rationally, one must factor depreciation into the buying equation as well. |
Can't disagree with Emigene. |
Anyone ever heard the Electrocompaniet Emc 1-UP or compared it to some of the gold standard players mentioned? |
What's unique about how the Boulder reads CDs and is it measurable somehow outside of subjective listening? |
"the Playback Designs MPS-5 has a totally custom designed, programable DAC"
A programmable DAC sounds like a useful feature. Does that mean it can in practice be programmed to sound different case by case if needed/desired?
I'm curious if anyone knows how this feature is applied in practice and by which party, the vendor, user, or both?
Any other players out there that may have user programmable or configurable DACS?
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Dcstep,
You are right. Trained ears can hear things less trained ears cannot even when older.
However, the time in which Mario correctly navigates a course can be measured and compared. And there are a lot of young pups out there who can maybe beat him now.
In the end, all that really matters is what sounds best to each person, or more realistically, what sounds best that that person can afford.
So I'd assert the question posed in this thread is a moot point, but still intertesting in that it does bring out useful information and some interesting opinions on the topic as well. |
DC,
One other point I would agree with you wholeheartedly on is that there is no substitute for experience in listening closely to live music (particularly acoustic music) when it comes to making a determination about how good a system or component sounds.
Acoustic music played live is the real thing....the reference standard. |
The only player mentioned here that I've heard myself is the DCS Puccini, which sounded very good. I've heard other high end players at dealers and all sound different, but I can't say one is necessarily better or not based on my limited exposure.
I'm really trying to understand what it is that makes one CD player in this league better than the other. Are there any that are truly better in ALL aspects, not just those that appeal to a certain listener?
It would help if some objective details were provided to help justify claims that any particular box, Ayre, DCS, PD, whatever, is superior, as in my mind, this should be the case to justify the cost of these players.
In the end, I am still convinced that personal taste is the prime determining factor in many cases. |
DcStep,
I agree that these subtle things are often not measured in practice. However, I do believe that if someone makes a claim that a particular design is the "best" in some regard, they should be able to back it up with quantifiable measurement to validate the claim.
Practically, verbal descriptions like you give work for me as long as they are a result of critical listening exercises. I can tell from your posts that you are indeed a critical listener, so your assessments carry weight for me.
Saying that one player has more detail or smoother response of some sort has meaning to me whereas "player x is/is not in the same league" without something to back it up other than opinion is meaningless.
To me, this high end audio stuff is much like fine wine. You can have two very fine wines that clearly taste different, or are of different styles. Same true of audio.
Also, no two people even have the same taste buds nor ears in terms of the ability for these biological sensors to discern taste or sound equivalently.
Its ironic that as we grow older and claim ability to be more discerning as a result of our experience, the fact is that our ability to hear physically deteriorates over time due to natural biological processes, so technically we are less competent than we were when we were young and still "wet behind the ears". This is a scientific fact, I am fairly certain. Very ironic!
I also believe it is true to a large extent that we also become more opinionated over time and this is a direct result of each person's unique experience. |
Garebear,
If you audition other players mentioned here or others compared to your current dcs, please share your findings here.
Thanks + Cheers! |
Stringreen,
What differences did you hear between the DCS and Ayre?
Which DCS? Puccini? |
