Jeffcott, Thank you for your reply. I did check the forums on AA.
Maggie3, thank you for your reply, you saved me some money, I was going to buy four of the electro-harmonix tubes for LV3, V3, LV2, and V2. I was wondering about tubes for LV1 and V1. I seen on AA post someone had mentioned the Ei`s.
I received an email from a fellow member of the Audiogon and he also recommended the Amperex tubes.
Jim |
Well I ended up buying two matched pairs of used Amperex PQ 6922 gold pin U.S. made Orange label tubes. Just couldn`t justify the higher priced white label Amperex tubes. I want to thank Bill, a Gon member, for putting up with all my email questions, he was very helpful. And I also would like to thank "Sam 1104" I am sure I was becoming a pain in the butt with all my questions. Sam answered every one. I learned alot from Sam. I highly recommend buying from him.
I am looking forward to getting the tubes and hear how they sound.
Jim |
I got my tubes today. Sound, Incredible!! Just can not believe the midrange.
Jeffcott, I ordered the Herbie`s tube dampers. Should get them this week..
Jim |
Snipes,
The 2 tubes in the far back row Will yield the biggest change in sound, LV1 and V1.
Next is the middle row, LV2 and V2.
Front row, LV3 and V3 least effect.
I learned this from Bill and Sam.
Question for you. When not listening to your SF preamp do you put it in standby or shut it off completely? Looks to me that standby shortens the tube life. Is that right?
Jeffcott, yes I will let you know.
Jim |
Snipes, I posted a question on AA...Tubes...On 02-05-05.
"Sonic Frontiers Line 1 standby, shorten tube life"? Check it out. Sam 1104, who I bought my tubes from has a line 2 and he turns off his unit also. I am now shutting my Line 1 down at night. |
They came today in the mail. The Herbie`s HAL-0 9 tube dampers. Sound, Tightened up everything. Cleaner, more focused. I do think I lost a tag of the bloom, but I think It needed to.
Sirspeedy, If you have not read "Joe`s Tube Lore" I highly recommend you do. Go to, Audio Asylum...FAQ...Tubes...Joes Tube Lore...6DJ8, 6922, 7308 saga part 1 and part 2. Great info.
I bought my Amerex PQ tubes from "Sam 1104". He has used NOS, and new NOS, NIB 6922. You can see his adds on Audiogon. Send him an email, He knows Tubes!
Jim |
Well I am now looking at an early 60s matched pair of Siemens E188CC 7308 gold pin NOS tubes. I want to see if I like a warmer sound. Any opinions? This tube rolling could become addictive.
Have any of you experimented with the placement of tube dampers on the tubes? 1/3 down from the top, verses half way down from the top, in the middle. I swear I can hear a difference with the Herbie's tube dampers. 1/3 down tighter, half way down warmer. Is it my imagination?? |
Tubes came today. Did not get the Siemens E188CC 7803. By the time I made up my mind to buy them they were gone, already sold. I bought a matched pair of Siemens CCa gold pin tubes from the 60s. The sound, different from the Amperex PQs. The CCas are warmer, I think smoother, Still eary to tell. Little hard to do an A/B comparison with tubes. So far I really like the CCa. I will report back in a couple of days.
Jim |
Well, I like the Amperex PQ tubes better. The PQs are cleaner, quieter, more lively than the Siemens CCa. The CCa is warm and smooth but I found myself dosing off.
Now my search for a matched pair of USA made white label Amperex PQ 6922 gold pin early 60s.
Anybody want to buy a pair of very slightly used NOS NIB Siemens CCa gold pin tubes?
Jim |
I owe the Siemens CCa tubes an apology. It took about 25 hour of break-in time for the CCa to start to open up and come alive. I now have about 30 hours on them and I am impressed. So much so I cancelled my add on Agon. I couldn't replace them for the $180.00 I was asking. After I get about 50 hours on them I will compare them again to the PQs. I will report back then.
Jim |
In my system the Siemens CCa sounds best. To think I tried to sell them. Compared to the orange label USA made Amperex 6922 PQs the CCa is cleaner, quieter, more air, larger sound stage, deeper tighter bass. I cannot speak for how they would stand up to the early 60s white lable PQ 6922 USA made tubes. This is after 50 hrs on the CCas.
In another subject I have been emailing back in forth with an Agon member that has a line 1 preamp. The topic was which tube spots were the most important in the Line one. He emailed "Sonic Frontiers" and they told him the second row LV2--V2 would yield the greatest sound difference. I was confused to say the least. I even changed the positions of the CCas and the PQs to have a listen. Needless to say I did not care for what I was hearing. In our emails I asked him to email Chris Johnson at Parts Connexion about the tube positioning. I mean who would better know than the designer. He emailed me back, Chris said the back row first then the second row then the front row. That made sense to me, that explained the difference I heard when I switch the tubes around. I asked him if he would post the great info he got from Chris Johnson, I hope when he gets the time he will. Bill, a fellow Agon member is using a pair of early 60s 7308 Telefunken in the back row. Might have to try that.
My tube placement now in the Line one,
LV1..V1... Siemens 60s NOS CCa 6922 gold pin tubes.
LV2..V2...Amperex 60s NOS PQ 6922 USA gold pin org label.
LV3..V3...Amperex 60s NOS PQ 6922 USA gold pin org label.
My system,
Arcam Alpha 9 CDp
AudioQuest power cord
AudioQuest Diamond X2 ICs
AR ES-1 TT, Rega RB300 arm, Clear Audio Aurum Beta Mk 2 cart
Grado PH-1 phono preamp.
AudioQuest Lapis X2 ICs
Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamp
AudioQuest Diamond X2 ICs
Audio Research VT 50 power amp
AudioQuest Sterling 3 ...8' pair speaker cables
ProAc Studio 200 loudspeakers
3 dedicated circuits with hosp grade 20 amp levington duplex recepts, on the same phase in the panel.
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Well here I am again. I bought me a matched pair of new NOS Early 60s Amperex 7308 PQ USA tubes. The first pair I received early this week. Turns out after just a few hours of time on them, one of the tubes became noisy, Microphonic. I bought them from Mike Miller, "Fat_Cat", here on Agon. I emailed Mike about my problem and Mike immediatley sent me another new pair, which I received today, {Saturday 3/26/05}. That is what I call a quick turn around. He said return the other pair when I got the time. I highly recommend Mike if you are looking to buy tubes with no worry.
I did get a chance to experiment with the Herbie's Hal O tube dampers on the microphonic tube. I found the Hal O helped control the noise best at just slightly above the top third of the tube. And also where the pads rested against the tube would make a difference. Even the tightness of the Hal O against the tube made a difference. Tighter was better.
The sound, how do they compare to the Siemens cca, I will have to report back later after I get about 50 hours on them.
Jim |
Lawrence, I like both the Siemens CCa and the Amperex PQ USA white label 7308 tubes. Both have their own sonic character. I have been switching them back and forth for weeks it seems. I do like the rich warm sound of the CCa on vocals. It is a tough call for me to say which sounds better. I do agree the orange label USA PQ 6922 is no match for the early white label USA PQ 7308 tubes. I wasted my money on that one.
What are you using for tube dampers. especially in the back row, LV1-V1?
I read your recent post, why are you thinking about a SS power amp? If you want a more SS sound from your power amp you might want to try electro-harmonix tubes. Email Chris Johnson at Parts Connexion see what he says...
So for now I have the CCa in the back row LV1-V1. The PQ 7308 in LV2-V2. and the orange label PQ in LV3-V3.
I am now looking for a matched pair of Telefunken E188CC early 60s. I want to try them in the preamp next.
Jim |
My quest for the Telefunken E188CC, I am not having much luck. Them puppies are expensive! I have found a new matched pair of E88CC 6922 gold pin diamond bottom late 60s. Question, are Telefunken tubes like the Siemens and Amperex tubes where the early 60 tubes sound better than the later 60 tubes? I am hesitant toward buying them without knowing... I made that mistake on the orange label Amperex PQ 6922 tubes.
Jim |
My Telefunken E188CC tubes came yesterday, 5/27/05, in the mail. I just could not wait to give them a try. I installed them in the "Line one" back row , installed the Herbie's Hal-O damper at the same level as the upper Mica Wafer. Turned the system on, loaded a CD, set the CDp to repeat, and let the system warm up for about an hour.
After about an hour I sat down for a listen. First impression the tubes sounded a lot like the Amperex white label early 60s PQ 7308 USA tubes. I listened for about two hours. Listened to about five CDs for comparisons. As I listened It seemed to me the tubes sounded to be a little too dampened, seemed to lack Air...The herbie's Hal-O dampers! I pulled dampers off and begain to listen, there was difinitely a difference. More Air, more life like. But I also noticed the vocals were not as smooth and less focused. Bass was not as deep and full, highs not as controlled as they were with the Herbie's on the tubes. I experimented placing the dampers at different locations on the tubes. To make a long story short I found the sweet spot for at least this pair of E188CC tubes. At the top of the tube, just before the tube curves in, to make the top point.
The sound, I listened for about three hours, These tubes are detailed, focused, with a nice smooth full midrange. Diana Krall's piano sounded accurate, natural, full bodied, with authority. Bass was deep, controlled, and full.
One thing for sure about this tube, it Fast and Lively.
These are the CDs I listened to;
Diana krall "Love Scenes"
Diana Krall "The Girl In The Other Room"
George Jones "Cold Hard Truth"
Dire Straits "On Every Street"
Alison Kraus "Now That I've Found You"
Comparison to the Siemens CCa or the Amperex PQ tubes, that will be the tough part as usual but I think the Telefunken will hold their own. The Telefunken E188CC are keepers.
Jim |
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Here is a response I posted on another members thread. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1126736041&openmine&zz09-19-05: Jea48 Gsselling, I spent most of yesterday experimenting changing tubes around in my Line 1. Lately I have been running a pair of early 60s NOS Siemens CCa tubes in the back row LV1 & V1. In the center row LV2 & V2 a pair of Amperex early 60s PQ USA 7308 tubes. I moved the PQs to the back row and the CCa tubes to the center row. I new I would here a difference and indeed I did. I listened for about an hour or so. Then I pulled the CCa tubes from the center and installed a pair of Telefunken E188CC tubes. I had interchanged the Telefunken E188CC and the Siemens CCa tubes in the back row enough times I new what to expect in the difference in sonics between the two tubes. I turned the Line one on and let it warm up for about a half hour. I then sat down for a listen......I listened for about an hour. Playing the same CDs I had listened to with the CCa tubes. The differences were still there but on a larger scale. Confused, yes...I pulled the E188CC tubes and reinstalled the CCA tubes. Turned the preamp back on, waited about a half hour and sat back down for a listen. The difference in sound between the two pairs of tubes is definitely more noticeable in the center row, LV2 & V2 than in the back row LV1 & V1. Last night I sent an email myself to Chris Johnson. Mr. Chris Johnson; I know you have probably answered this question in the past several times. I am of the understanding that the order of importance of tube placement in the Sonic Frontiers Line 1 and Line 2 is as follows, LV1 & V1..... most important will yield the biggest change in sound. LV2 & V2.....Second most important. LV3 & V3.....least important. I have the Line one and have been installing the best of breed NOS tubes in the back row, LV1 & V1. Early 60s Siemens CCa, Amperex White label PQ 7308 USA made, Telefunken E188CC, and Telefunken E88CC tubes. Someone just posted a thread on Audiogon saying that "Sonic Frontiers" says the center row LV2 & V2 will yield the biggest change in sound followed by LV1 & V1. Chris will you settle this once and for all. Who best can answer this question but you the former owner and designer, of the Sonic frontiers Line 1, 2, and 3. Will you please give the reasons why. Also would you mind if I posted your answer in quotes on Audiogon. I will only post that part of your answer that you approve. Thank you very much for your time. Left my Full name Audiogon user name jea48 My email address A simple answer, unsigned: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >"LINE 1, Line-2 Most important.....gain tubes V2, LV2"< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A reply email address, Information [ [email protected]] . Jim Jea48 (Threads | Answers) (edit my post) |
Well nothing like starting over. In the last three weeks or so I have acquired two pairs of early 60s NOS Siemens CCa tubes. The first pair about 3 weeks ago. Time enough before I was told the center row was the most important on the Line one. Up to that point I was switching out the back row with the CCa tubes and the Telefunken E188CC, Telefunken E88CC, And a pair of 70s Siemens CCa tubes. I was using a pair of early 60s NOS Amperex PQ 7308 USA made tubes in center row.
As far as the back row the Telefunken E188CC and the early Siemens CCa tubes were the best sounding tubes. The Siemens seemed to be a tad thinner sounding than the Telefunken tubes. The back row. Infact I thought the E188CC tubes sounded great. They were a good match with the Amperex 7308 tubes in the center row.
Then the apple cart was upset. Time to start all over. I moved the Amperex to the back row and installed the Siemens CCa tubes in the center row. The sound, the siemens were very transparent, with plenty of air. Midrange was full and focused. Krall's Piano was the best sounding to date. I liked this arrangement better than having the Amperex in the center and the Siemens in the back row.
I then pulled the Siemens and installed the Telefunken E188CC tubes. Big difference in sound in the center row, than I heard in the back row. The Siemens clearly pulled ahead of the Telefunken tubes imo...The Telefunken tubes lacked the transparency and air of that of the Siemens tubes.
I pulled the telefunken E188CC and reinstalled the Siemens CCa tubes to varify my findings. In my system the CCa tubes sound better. That is in the center row.
I also compaired the Siemens to the Telefunken E88CC tubes and the Siemens sounded better to even a larger degree than the differences heard between the Siemens and the Telefunken E188CC tubes.
The worst sounding tube in the center row was the 70s Siemens CCa tubes. Midrange was warm but not focused. Highs were rolled off. Bass was loose and a little muddy. I bought these tubes early in the game and was mislead by a seller here on Agon. I was told they were from the late 60s.
Yesterday my second pair of early 60s NOS Siemens CCa tubes came. I pulled the Amperex 7308 tubes from the back row and installed the Siemens tubes. I will post back the results later.
Jim |
I just experienced my first NOS tube failure. One of the Siemens early 60s CCa tubes. The bad tube was installed in the center row of the line one, V2, right channel.
Here is what I experienced. When switching line inputs from the front panel I got a popping sound through the right speaker. Scared the hell out of me to say the least. Also up close I heard a slight fuzzy sound comming from the right speaker. I had pulled the CCa tubes earlier and installed a pair of early 60s Siemens E88CC I had just received. I listened to the E88CC tubes for about an hour and a half. I pulled the E88CC tubes and reinstalled the CCa tubes. I powered back up the Line one, when I pushed the line input for my CDp, thats when I heard the pop... Like a dummy, I pushed one of the other line input buttons to confirm what I had just heard...
I pulled the tubes one at a time and tested them. The bad CCa failed in section 1 of the dual triode tube. Section 2 still tested strong. The puzzling thing is section 1 does not show any shorts or grid emissions. I did not take a listen after the problem, I did not want to take any chances of damaging something.
This tube was from the last pair of CCa tubes I had just bought. I had maybe 150 hours on them.
I then reinstalled the early 60s Siemens CCa tubes that I had installed in the back row, and installed them in the center row. For the back row I installed the Siemems E88CC I had received today. Powered up the Line one, no pops when switching the line inputs system sounds fine.
Any thoughts? I handle the tubes like a new born baby. This is a first for me with an NOS tube.
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I finally got around to buying a pair of early 60s USA made Amperex PQ 6922 tubes. Both tubes were made in 1961.
Another great tube. Not quite as warm as the early 60s Siemens CCa tube but still a very smooth sounding tube. The 6922 PQ is detailed, fast, lots of air, and liquid sounding. Imo the bass is deeper than the Siemens CCa tube. The sound stage is wide and multi layered.
In an earlier post I mentioned the early 60s USA Amperex 7308 tubes. Imo, in my system, the 6922 PQ is a better sounding tube. Vocals are more involving.
My present tube placement in my Line One
Back row early 60s Siemens CCa
Middle row early 60s 6922 PQ USA
Front row early 60s Siemens E88CC
Audio Research VT50 Amp
All "EH"
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In my last post I forgot to mention I found the best position for the Herbies HAL-O damper was near the top of the 6922 PQ tubes.. In fact I run the HAL-O dampers near the top on all the tubes in the Line One. |
Just an update. I have been running early 60s Amperex PQ white label USA made tubes in my Line One preamp for the last few months. I pulled the two pairs of early 60s Siemens CCa tubes I was running in the middle and back rows mainly because of their value, worth. Can you guys believe what a pair of them are selling for now? I managed to buy three pairs before the price went through the roof.
I have been buying early 60s Amperex PQ tubes on Ebay with pretty good luck. I picked up a nice pair a couple of weeks ago for $87.59. They were made in 1961. They tested close to new. I am running them in row two of the Line One at the present time.
About a month ago I picked up another tube tester. If you are buying NOS tubes used or new, you need a tube tester. I bought a Hickok 6000A for a hundred bucks, what a buy.
Jim |
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